Less support from parents in college can really change things....

Parents Forum
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<p>S's friend is home for Thanksgiving and doing very poorly at college. (A good but not top school...on par with an NYU but don't want to disclose just for recognition's sake.) His parents literally propped him up for all of high school...doing projects for him, rewriting papers, and intensive tutoring every night to get him through his tougher honors classes and for his standardized testing. This is a kid who had over a 4.0 weighted average and got a 31 on the ACT (he took the SATs too but didn't do well), so he's generally a bright kid, but his parents really worked hard to give him that extra boost.</p>

<p>We didn't do as much for my son (his choice...to be honest, we would have done more if he would have let us, especially with tutoring) and I've always felt bad about it because I feel like a lot of kids are getting really intensive help and so S may have been at a disadvantage. (Of course, I know that there are self-motivated, amazing kids out there getting no help at all.) Now I'm seeing for the first time what can happen once supports are pulled out and the kid is on his own. It's an eye-opener for us.</p>

<p>Parents still do what they can...older brother (senior in college) was writing a big paper for a class this month and sending sections to the parents, who were "editing" it and sending it back to him. But there is only so much they can do from afar.</p>

<p>I'm sorry for the kid, but I am feeling a little better about my own S being able to handle things on his own because that's the way he wanted to roll.</p>

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<p>Thank goodness! We’re not doing our jobs as parents if our kids don’t get a chance to spread their wings and try to fly.</p>

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<p>I know a kid whose parents wrote all the papers for her and tutored her intensively. The mom has offered to write all the kid’s college papers (the kid is entering an artistic field with few papers) and email them. I have fewer problems with tutoring because tutoring allows the student to master the material. It is possible for students to seek tutors at college also. There’s no shame in that. But writing a kid’s paper? That’s ridiculous.</p>

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<p>My neighbor told me a story about her colleague at work. Both he and his wife have Ph.D.: one in social science and the other in natural science. They have only one child. They very <em>intensely</em> helped him through out K-12, practically writing his papers and tutoring him everyday, and masterminding and carefully orchestrating ECs that look perfect on paper and getting him summer intern positions through their connections in academia. They practically wrote his college essays also. The kid got into Harvard.</p>

<p>However, he was never a Harvard material. Once he was in college, it soon became obvious that the son could not manage on his own - he was way in over his head. So, the parents alternated every week: one week, mom goes to Boston and intensely tutors him for all humanities/social sciences subjects. Another week, dad goes to Boston and tutors him for science related subjects. Needless to say, they also write papers for him.</p>

<p>That was when this kid was a freshman. We did not hear what happened since then.</p>

<p>Scary stuff.</p>

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<p>Very sad, but I think I would have predicted that this child would not do well in college. They did not do him any favors.</p>

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<p>I wonder if you really know the details about what went on in their house. I would hesitate to judge anyone without being in their shoes. I think it is too bad that this kid is not doing well. I would not base conclusions on my own parenting on the failure of some other family’s child. The picture is always more complicated than apparent on the surface.</p>

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<p>Well said, compmom. I was thinking something similar.</p>

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<p>Compmom has a good point. Also sometimes parents just aren’t “aware” of how much they assist their kids during the K-12 years. Whether it’s making sure they get up in the morning and out the door on time, to proofreading and editing, to nagging about homework done on time, often parents mean well and don’t realize that they aren’t fostering independence in their teens. Some kids manage the college transition just fine and others just haven’t developed the self management skills. I’m sure the parents who “prop” their kids up many times don’t even think about how much they are doing and they mean well. The kids might have the appropriate intellectual horsepower, but not the self control to be successful.</p>

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<p>We have been very lucky with our kids that we didn’t need to be involved with their school work. But it’s not because of any special effort or good parenting. The only thing we’ve ever done was to tell them not to be shy about asking for extra help from their teachers. D1 is not a great writer, so she’ll show her paper to her teacher numerous times before she turns it in. She is still doing it in college. D2 would always go for extra help for math.</p>

<p>D1 has done a lot of tutoring. She tries to show students how to study - organize material, take notes, rather than to spoon feed them the material.</p>

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<p>The mistake is when parents feel they’ve done a bad job at parenting if their kids go to a not-top-10 college. There’s even another thread in here about that. Through my kids, I’ve also known kids who are “propped up” in HS to get into those top colleges, but I have never followed up to find out what happened. </p>

<p>This situation is the particularly hard when the student does a poor job of advocating for himself/herself. MY LD son is a great writer, so I never need to (or would) “help” him, but he definitely needed my help recently when he had to figure out the complications about his course sign-up, particularly because he’s a transfer. I stepped in only because he was retaking a course he had previously taken and about to be signed up for another one he already took. I can’t blame his advisor; it was complicated. And my son, a good student, just gets lost with those details. I went with him to meetings with his advisor, and mostly just listened. I think his advisor was actually appreciative of my input.</p>

<p>But help my kid write a paper? I already graduated from college!</p>

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<p>There was a long exchange about parents and writing on another thread – the helicopter parent thread, I believe. How much “help” is allowed? After all, even professional writers have editors, writing groups, etc. Writing is a process. Can a child bounce ideas off a parent? Can a parent read a rough draft and make comments? The discussion was interesting. One poster even advocated that a prof needs to be told if the parent had any input on the paper whatsoever.
It’s hard for me to imagine a parent actually writing the paper from start to finish with absolutely no input from the student, but I guess I’ve heard enough stories on these boards to believe that it does happen.</p>

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<p>very interesting thread since EVERYONE is our NJ public gets outside math tutoring (especially in the honors classes)…and the kids in college are doing amazingly well…</p>

<p>I do agree with the above posters that parents are not doing their kids any favors by writing/editing etc papers for their kids;…but jury is still out on the tutoring issue for other subjects…just speaking from here…we’ve had great math teachers and just awful ones…</p>

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<p>No one is talking about tutoring students. There are tutoring available in colleges. There are writing center in colleges. There is a difference between kids getting help from outside resources and parents doing work for the kids and not giving kids the opportunity to self actualize.</p>

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<p>^^momofthree – I agree. I was pointing out that many threads lately are debating how much is too much. And it’s hard to know the actual extent of help in someone else’s family.</p>

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<p>Anyone else have a kid they COULDN’T help if they wanted to? Ours was always too independent to let us help him. Sign me as helicopter mom wannna be…</p>

<p>Addenda- I did do a lot of behind the scenes work that helped him and others (volunteer work including things I didn’t enjoy).</p>

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<p>Ready to roll, I am curious how you know so much about this family, including the student’s GPA, ACT and SAT’s, how he is doing at school, and the fact that his older brother got editing help on a paper. Is the parent a friend of yours and confiding in you? Does that parent know you are posting this?</p>

<p>I helped one of my 3 kids by discussing things with her, particularly English books and history. My first two were self-sufficient at a younger age, but the youngest has some learning issues that are just being diagnosed now, at 17 1/2. The lecture type of class did nothing for her, and she needed a lot of interaction in order to learn something, which she did not get at her public school.</p>

<p>I think that up through high school, we need to remember that the purpose of school is learning, not grades. Grades are just supposed to measure that learning. The competition for college acceptance has changed the purpose of school for some, so that any help received is seen as unfair, in the contest for A’s (or B’s, as it were). But I felt that my child learned much better with some help, and I let the school know that. Teachers at our school do not stay after school for very long to provide that help, but there was one English teacher who did meet with our daughter, and she and I communicated on her behalf, at the instigation of the teacher, not me.</p>

<p>It is tricky to provide help that offers a model for time-management, or for organizing writing, or whatever, with the ultimate goal of independence. We need to know when and how to slowly withdraw, and sometimes the kids themselves insist on this (like readytoroll’s son). Some are ready earlier than others, and some will always need some help, which they can access from tutoring at school, once away from home.</p>

<p>Every kid and every situation is unique and I think it is much better if we don’t judge each other. I hope that this student learns how to access help at school, and gets evaluation for any problems he might have.</p>

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<p>Of course the parent doesn’t know I’m posting this. Is there a reason I shouldn’t be sharing a story that I think might be beneficial to others? It’s not as if I’ve published their names, nor any details that would help you identify them. (Frankly, I’m sure my descriptions could apply to many.) As far as being judgmental…yes, I am making the judgment that they didn’t, in the end, do the best thing for their son. But frankly, this entire message board is full of people who like to judge other people with the sole purpose of talking about how much better they are or their kid is. In my case, I don’t take any pride in doing less for my son because I’m so much of a better parent; I admit that I might have done more things than I did had he let me. However, it is true that I would not have written papers…although I would have happily edited them if he had shown them to me.</p>

<p>In answer to your other question, I know because we have been in their house when some of the writing and other help was going on. One year kid was supposed to build a full scale model of something, and mom and dad were doing it while the rest of us (including the kid) watched a football game on TV. Mom readily admits to writing the kid’s college applications as well. My son has seen more of it than we have obviously.</p>

<p>If you don’t feel that my story is relevant to issues you may have, feel free to move onto another thread. But implying that I may not know what I’m talking about or saying that “it’s much better if we don’t judge each other” is a judgment in itself, no?</p>

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<p>Rodney, I’ll bet that is because your high school is extremely competitive, with honors/AP classes being much, much harder than the base classes. Once the kids go off to college, the classes are actually easier for them!</p>

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Yes, sometimes people are quite unembarrassed to admit or even display how much help they provide. I remember a team project my middle d worked on in hs - something to do with an elaborate display of some aspect of early Roman life, I think. As so often happens, one member of the team put the entire thing in jeopardy by being unprepared - at which point, another team member said, “Well, my Mom was up really late building my part of it, and she’s gonna be sooooo mad if we get a bad grade!”</p>

<p>… And there was the second grade project for which my youngest d received a mediocre grade - because the teacher had told the class it had to be all their own work, and mine was one of the few kids who foolishly thought that meant that she had to do it all herself. She was pretty subdued on the day all the parents came in to see what their 8 y/os had accomplished on their own: a full traditional Ecuadoran feast; a scale model of an Andean peak, complete with running waterfall and real snow at the summit; and several very well-written essays on aspects of mountain life. Let me tell you, I was impressed. ;)</p>

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<p>There are many reasons for kids to fail in their first semester of college.</p>