Let the game begin!

<p>I did very well on DAD I – have a nice boy and a wonderful girl. Now, my goal is to get an 800 on my DAD II. I could use all the help I could get.</p>

<p>The application process for 2008 admission has officially begun in our house. This is the very first college application in our household. My D has the stats that are at par with the best in CC. Our next challenge is to narrow down the selection of schools to apply. I say it is "our" challenge because it is her school but my wallet.</p>

<p>The general rule we have come to agree on is that the list should have a max of 8 schools and it must have at least one solid safety (both academically and financially). So far we have the reach and safety picked, but she is having a difficult time picking matching school. </p>

<p>If it is up her, she would use all 8 opportunities on the very best universities. If it is up to me, I would rather for her to go to honor program in Flagship State U. </p>

<p>From the first grade, I have told her that she needs to study hard, and with good grades, she could attend any University that she wants to. Now she delivered her part, I am falling short. We lost over 150K in that dot com stock crash in 2000 and have not fully recovered yet. </p>

<p>I know it is up to us to work things out. But, any tips and experience will be greatly appreciated.</p>

<p>
[quote]
From the first grade, I have told her that she needs to study hard, and with good grades, she could attend any University that she wants to.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Afraid not. Even with perfect grades, there is absolutely not even the likelihood, much less guarantee, that she will be accepted at "any University that she wants to" if her list includes the most selective schools.</p>

<p>My advice, based on the experience of my son and some of his friends, is this: if you are going to be financing this from your wallet (i.e. no financial aid), and your student really is a very top student, be absolutely sure to include some good schools, including privates, that offer merit aid. It isn't easy to get, to be sure, but passing on the chance because your student cannot see past the Ivy League is unwise, in my opinion.</p>

<p>I think 8 is a good number, but probably the minimum if you want to maximize the chance to land merit aid.</p>

<p>A lot of parents on this forum are well-versed about a wide variety of institutions, but will not be able to offer any specific suggestions without some idea of what your daughter is looking for with regard to location and programs, size of school, etc.</p>

<p>Best of luck to you and your daughter.</p>

<p>Agree with Midmo. I['m a parent who is about to send off Son Number 2 to his first year.</p>

<p>Geographic location? Size? Urban vs rural? Interests? Personality? etc. etc. Give us some info and we can help with some options.</p>

<p>The Ivies are not the be-all and end-all. And remember, they reject on average something like 80 out of 20. And 70 of those 80 were true "contenders." Not trying to be negative -- just realistic.</p>

<p>Thank you ^^^</p>

<p>We know about less than 10% rate at top elite schools. So, the "could attend any school you wants to" is figuratively speaking. </p>

<p>Our one and only guide - USnews university ranking.</p>

<p>Do you want to share where you live, what she's looking for, and all that other stuff? People on CC are very knowledgeable and can offer suggestions. For example: If you're in the West and she's looking for a small LAC, there are Pomona and Claremont. If you're in the East looking for the same, there's Middlebury and Williams. If you're in the midWest (or looking there) there's Kenyon.</p>

<p>Or is she interested in engineering? There's Cooper Union right in the heart of NYC. There's CalTech.</p>

<p>Point being: Tons of great schools to consider. Open up your list.</p>

<p>I'm going to suggest you also check out this thread below..."brag about your great lesser known college"
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=370873%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=370873&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Each family has to have it's own considerations about what is important to them in picking out a college - but I would encourage you do NOT get too tied up in the rankings...seriously, those are good but mostly based on statistics not real life "fit" for individuals. "Fit" should be the #1 consideration - that may be financial fit, personal fit, location fit - you decide.</p>

<p>I think having a target of 8 schools is okay but I don't think it should be a hard limit - especially if you're striving for some good aid packages.</p>

<p>There are thousands of colleges in this country and there's no one 'best' one. This is especially true for an undergrad degree. When you read about 'rankings', pay attention to the criteria they use to do the ranking. Some of the attributes you may not even care about or might even oppose. Remember that there are lots of things that aren't variables in the ranking calculations that might be important to her such as location, weather, friends, dorm life, availability of decent housing both on and off campus, availability of decent public transportation, the area of town adjacent to the campus, etc. Also pay attention to whether the ranking is for undergrad as opposed to grad.</p>

<p>Have you been out visiting some colleges? Has she spent any time on the campuses? If not, she should do some visits asap. If she has some friends a year or two ahead of her already in college she can speak with them (and chat and email) and find out their thoughts on the particular college. She might even be able to shadow them for a day or attend a class or two with them to give her more of an idea. This assumes it's logistically possible for her.</p>

<p>My D was also a top student and had a few "dream schools", but she also applied to our flagship university, with not much expectations of actually attending there. After all the acceptances, she sat down and took a realistic look--thought about the costs, opportunities, probabilities of grad or law school in the future, etc. We had saved for her education, but she knew that it would be a big blow to our family finances to send her to an elite school in Manhattan for $50,000 per year, and we would not be able to help our with grad school. After making additional visits, she, on her own, decided that the pluses of attending the honors program in-state far outweighed the benefits of going into debt at a high-prestige university. I feel the key is to make sure that she is involved in the decision so that she won't resent you for years, and also to make sure that she is aware of ALL of the incredible opportunities there are at a large public university. If she is like my D, she may have many interests and is not sure exactly what she wants to do, so she can afford to try many different courses and fields of study. There are opportunities for internships and travel all over the country and the world. Her school has apartments in every major city set aside for their interns--all at in-state cost--I am constatnly amazed at how much the school has to offer, and thank my lucky stars that she made the decision that she did--and now, we DO have the resources to help her out in Law School.</p>

<p>
[quote]
From the first grade, I have told her that she needs to study hard, and with good grades, she could attend any University that she wants to. Now she delivered her part, I am falling short.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>We told D the exact same thing about college (first mistake). She delivered with a NMS and several other nice awards. She graduated 6th at a high school with over 4000 students and aced her SAT and ACT. She had the whole package, but got waitlisted at (HYP) "any school she could get into." Also, we had saved and invested a lot of money, but not enough for her to go to schools that did not offer merit aid. She got into others top tier schools, but no merit aid offered.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Our one and only guide - USnews university ranking

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Many schools came courting with offers of $$$ but she wanted to go to an Ivy. She was hooked on USNWR rankings (second mistake). Make sure that any school your D can possibly get into (including reaches) are financially a possibility. If the school doesn't offer merit aid and the price tag is out of reach, don't let her apply (third mistake). There is much heart break and angst when a child gets into their dream school and there is no way on earth you can afford it without bankrupting yours and her future.</p>

<p>Now is the time to sit down with your D and have an honest discussion. Congratulate the heck out of her for her accomplishments. Then start looking at "hidden Ivy's" or lesser known schools that offer great merit aid (if you don't qualify for need based aid). </p>

<p>There are some wonderful colleges and universities out there that would love a top tier student. If your experience is like ours (and it sounds similar) it will take visiting to help your D fall in love with. Lots of schools ranked in the second 25 or 50 are amazing schools that use offers of big $ to attract great students away from the top 25. And now there are schools opting out of the USNWR rankings, especially some of the smaller LAC's.</p>

<p>Good luck.
And, by the way, our D was able to go to an amazing school, that she absolutely loves, Tufts, only because her grandfather passed away and unexpectedly left her $ to go to the college of her choice. It turned out to be one of the new "hidden Ivy's" that she discovered from researching her area of interest, location, size and other criteria. </p>

<p>She did not learn about Tufts from USNWR.</p>

<p>Dad II--can you expand on what you meant by "our one and only guide--US News university ranking"?</p>

<p>Does that mean that's the only thing you have looked at so far, or do you mean that you consider that to be sufficient by which to judge the merit of a particular school?</p>

<p>Here's my take on the choice of an undergraduate program...first of all, it is a bachelor's degree. I would not go so far as to say "college is the new high school" but a bachelor's in and of itself is the prerequisite for an entry level career path job--the source of the bachelor's doesn't really matter. So don't get too caught up in the "brand name" school leading to any kind of better outcome than the private label school--it's having the degree that matters.</p>

<p>The bachelor's is the starting line, not the finish line, so every family has to decide how much of a limited resource (money) they can invest in getting their kids to the starting line. This is a lot easier if you don't actually HAVE any money or if you have so much money that $200,000 (the theoretical maximum for four years of the most expensive college in the country) won't make much of a difference to you either way. For most of us it's going to be a complex process of weighing our desire to get our kid to the starting line with the best tools for success against what we don't really have a huge amount of control over--our future earning power, future performance of the markets, our future health, etc. </p>

<p>I would argue that while it is a paramount duty of every parent to prepare their children to be contributing adults and that includes providing them with sufficient education to support themselves, it is ALSO the obligation of the parent to have a realistic understanding of the economic value of a bachelor's degree and to be realistic about how much of the family's capital and future earning power can be invested in education.</p>

<p>The difference between what a $200,000 liberal arts degree will return in the market vs. what a $100,000 degree will return is not going to justify the difference in cost. </p>

<p>All that being said, there are about five schools where I think the value of the bachelor's degree is significantly higher than the value of the average bachelor's, and there are a few degrees that are in such high demand that I think it is safe for the student (note I do not say parent) to borrow more than the average amount that I would consider "safe." Those schools/programs would be CMU's program in CS, MIT, CalTech, Wharton's undergrad business degree, and possibly UChicago's economics program. In general, I think a student studying math, computer science, physics, chemistry, or engineering at any school can probably go a little further out on the debt limb than the ones in other fields since odds are high they can command a decent entry level salary and if needed pay down undergraduate debt before going on to grad school.</p>

<p>So...if your son or daughter is heading for college with the idea of earning a degree in English or psychology it isn't going to be smart to mortgage the house or take out huge loans because the odds are high that without grad school it's going to take a few years of relatively low pay to get established.</p>

<p>Giving into emotional decisions about rankings, "fit" or "heart's desire" schools regardless of cost will more often than not end in tears, loan defaults, having to leave school midway or transfer to a less expensive school, or having to defer grad school or, horrors, live with parents following graduation. </p>

<p>We looked at a bunch of DD's "dream" schools and THEN sent her to a weekend session that the State U. honors college sponsors to try to keep top students in state and before she went to the session, she looked at State U. as a consolation prize, after the weekend she considered it her solid second choice and was really impressed and would have gone there with enthusiasm had her first choice not accepted her.</p>

<p>In addition to the link abasket gave, I'd suggest you take a look at the "Schools Known for Good Merit Aid" sticky. <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=52133%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=52133&lt;/a>
For students with stellar (Ivy/top 5 USN&WR) stats, often their match schools are the ones just below those tippy-top levels. And they offer merit aid to the stellar students. Key thing is that student has to really be interested in the school as an option and be able to show it via essays, interviews if offered and visits to the school etc.</p>

<p>As so many have said, it would really help if you prime the pump with more than "top USNews U." Parents on cc tend to be chock full of possibile suggestions, but we need something to go on. Otherwise it's impossible to sort through our mental data bases - we really NEED to know whether she prefers a certain size, a sports atmosphere or not, an urban or rural atmosphere, a school known for a particular major....</p>

<p>
[quote]
So far we have the reach and safety picked, but she is having a difficult time picking matching school.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>How happy would your D be attending the safety? If it would be fine by her, then you can add more reaches and matches to your list. If it is iffy, then you need to have a couple more safeties that are different from the first.</p>

<p>From the little you have described, your D sounds like a good student. She will have many great schools to choose from, so she needs to narrow down the list from which she will make her choice: geogaphy, location, size, social scene, and such , are good ways to start narrowing down that list. And if you can do so, we can help you come up with 8-10 schools that would fit her criteria.</p>

<p>Dad II, congratulations on the achievements of your D. She will have many match schools to pick from. In our house we'd that she has no reaches, only lottery schools - you pay the application fees and take you chances. :-)</p>

<p>I agree with the other posters and our experience illustrates their points.</p>

<p>When we worked with DS II this past year we were glad that that he was able to come up with 8 criteria to pick colleges.
1. climate - snow is good
2. size - small to medium
3. distance from home - within ~8 hours driving from home
4. campus set up - well-defined, no big city streets crisscrossing all over
5. good support for his tentative major - engineering
6. opportunities to continue his ECs - unusually combination and was most helpful in eliminating schools
7. possible merit scholarship or good fin aid - we have our limits
8. flexible curriculum to accommodate his broad interests
9. greek life not to predominate</p>

<p>We ended up with 10 -12 or so schools. We were ruthless in slashing and ended with eight, three of which were safeties that we put in and were not perfect fit of his criteria. We used the USNWR to get a sense of how competitive our chosen schools and we used the Princeton Review and College Board websites, Fiske guide and CC to confirm our list.</p>

<p>He was accepted into five good schools with scholarships of varying amount. It was a tough decision but he was very logical about the decision - he set up a rubric to rank the school. He visited overnight to to ones that were his top choices. In the end, he went with the school that fit his criteria well and gave him the best gut feel. As parents, we (I, my DH not so much) might have been a little sore that he did not pick a full ride but we are honoring what we promised, money-wise, at the start of the process. Now we are happy to see he all excited about starting school in a couple of weeks.</p>

<p>With DS I, the process was a little harder because he did not provide us with as many criteria for weeding out schools and his interests and ideas for tentative majors were fairly broad. There were hundreds of good schools for him! I breathed a sigh of relief when DS II came up with the long list of criteria. </p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

<p>DAD II- CC is an awesome resource, if you can make the time to search and read and learn, you will glean far more about the real process & benefits of various options.</p>

<p>We began in about 2000 with the old "other" prestige hound board when CC had very small amounts of posting. Had I known then what I know now about fit & $ my D1 would have had a very different experience. She was totally caught up in the Top 25 pursuit. Her HS class sent one brilliant student/ amazing athlete to HYP, on brilliant but well rounded student to an HYP, another BWRK with a family hook to a lesser Ivy, another brilliant student to another lesser Ivy. Those four were the top four kids academically in an incredible class. Every one else thought they should apply to Ivy's, too, but while BWRKs, they were not geniuses nor were they in the top 5, so there was a bit of disappointment. However, that disappointment could have been avoided if the next ranked bunch of kids had managed to look for school which fit them. My D ended up with two very well respected top 25 options which both give only play aid and one top 50 public as a financial safety. As middle class people, you can guess where she went. She did not expect us to go broke sending her to a school we could not afford, but it was a real disappointment.</p>

<p>A few years later, lots of time spent on CC and D2 who was top 5 and a junior national athlete got into all 5 schools on her list, from two top publics, to a top LAC, to a couple of public safeties to a smaller private with rolling admissions. So, while she did have all those choices, the best app was Sept to a rolling admit school with $10k annually in merit aid alone offered on SAT scores. With that in her pocket, the rest was stress-free, well, relative to D1's drama.</p>

<p>D2 was not applying to any top 5 places, but got a call from a coach of one and was talked into applying, ED/EA with coach's support and multi-year USA team experience....did not get in She was the complete package plus a hook plus coach support. Admissions are fickle, have safeties you can live with!!</p>

<p>D3 has learned from it all and has chosen a regional well-reputed, but west coast so unknown as compared to the famous schools LAC. She may only apply there rolling admit, merit $, 2500 kids, no fuss, no bother, no stress, sweet </p>

<p>It really is all about fit. D1s prestige-puppy classmates, many with good reason) made for an admissions drama all about where you could get in not where you would fit the best. D1 is attending grad school in a school she would never have deigned to consider back for UG, not high enough on the rankings, but she took some summer classes there and feels a fit and it excited like she never was for a top 50 school.</p>

<p>DADII: You might want to peruse this thread as well which is an interesting debate on the merits of USN&WR:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=310361%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=310361&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I agree that you need to be a bit more specific if you want good advice. I am a newbie here with my first D in app mode--I posted a thread asking for advice and received plenty of helpful info. Post some stats and the list of schools your D is looking at, along with a brief characterization of what's important to her and what interests her.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

<p>I think we've scared DADII away.</p>

<p>DADII, Start with the money. Identify exactly what you can afford. Need based aid and merit aid are two different animals. If you qualify for need based aid, then your daughter will have an unrestricted list. If she will need merit aid, then her list will look very different.</p>

<p>Come back with this information, then we'll have a lot of advice.</p>

<p>Maybe he just had a busy day. I don't think we've been very scary.</p>

<p>This is overwhalming. Many thanks to your kind people. </p>

<p>First of all, we don't have time nor money to visit schools. D said, when I get in, we visit.</p>

<p>Secondly, D does not really know what she is looking for. The list changes every week.</p>

<p>As of right now, it looks like this: Yale, Stanford, WashU, Cornell, ? , ?, ?,, state U.</p>

<p>One key lesson I learnt here is about safety. It is a pretty sure thing D will get into state U with minimal cost. But she really does not like State U. So, it is not really a safety.</p>

<p>Well, you have east coast, west coast, right in the middle and rural New York, so it looks like you are open, geographically speaking. In a way, that is good, because it leaves a lot of options. How about a southern option or two, or maybe Texas? Vanderbilt Univ., Emory and Rice are in your USNews Top 20 and do offer some merit scholarships if that is valuable to you.</p>

<p>If she does not like State U, it is not a safety. What state is it, if you don't mind saying? Perhaps she would consider an OOS State U that she finds more appealing. Often merit scholarships are available to OOS students; in the case of a very strong student, the cost can be reduced to equal or less than one's own state U.</p>