level of Brown's name recognition?

College Search & Selection
41

<p>Interestingly, the authors of the revealed preferences working paper </p>

<p><a href="http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/hoxby/papers/revealedprefranking.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/hoxby/papers/revealedprefranking.pdf&lt;/a> </p>

<p>are now preparing their work for peer-reviewed journal publication (as I learned from an email from one of the co-authors). I think it will be interesting to see how their claims will be edited and refined in response to referee comments, and what the scholarly response to the hoped-for published paper will be. I think their methodology is a valuable addition to the discussion of how to rank colleges, but I have confirmed through email with that co-author that the authors certainly don't claim that the rankings they found in one dataset are written in stone for all time. Maybe student preferences are changing, and almost for sure the data set they had was not exactly representative of all students who aspire to enroll at the most-preferred colleges, but their oversampling of one group of students had a plausible practical reason, and produced a preliminary report that has generated a lot of interest debate about methodology.</p>

42

<p>afan,
I advise a little caution about reading too deeply into the regional rankings of the Revealed Preference study. Others have commented extensively elsewhere on the overrepresentation of Northeastern students in this study. Even the authors state clearly in the report,</p>

<p>“We make no great claims for these regional rankings because the sample for each region is small.” </p>

<p>They go on to point out how even top-ranked colleges like Stanford and Caltech have zero representation in certain regions (deep South) and thus aren’t even ranked. </p>

<p>As for Brown, collegehelp once did a listing of which states were most heavily represented at the top colleges. For an entering class of 1438, following is the raw data for Brown from 2005 which shows that 6 of its most heavily represented 8 states are in the Northeast (exceptions are CA and FL). The totals below represent 72% of the incoming class which means that the remaining 28% is spread across the other 35 states. You may see it differently, but my impression (and these numbers) indicate to me that Brown is just not that high on the radar screen of students in many parts of the country. </p>

<p>Brown NY 207
Brown MA 183
Brown CA 169
Brown NJ 107
Brown RI 61
Brown FL 59
Brown PA 58
Brown CT 54
Brown IL 37
Brown TX 35
Brown VA 31
Brown WA 24
Brown OH 23</p>

<p>Collegehelp also did an evaluation of matriculation patterns for students going to schools within 500 miles of their home. Here are those results:</p>

<p>Brown University 1438 755 53%</p>

<p>Cornell University 3075 2054 67%
University of Pennsylvania 2541 1444 57%
Dartmouth College 1075 595 55%
Georgetown University 1551 856 55%
Stanford University 1596 849 53%
Emory University 1637 834 51%
Rice University 711 358 50%
Princeton University 1221 594 49%
Vanderbilt University 1620 791 49%
Yale University 1321 579 44%
Northwestern University 1952 866 44%
University of Notre Dame 1966 803 41%
Massachusetts Institute of Technology 996 400 40%
California Institute of Technology 234 86 37%
University of Chicago 1203 415 34%
Duke University 1494 479 32%</p>

<p>It was interesting to me to see that several colleges that are commonly (and mistakenly) viewed by many as being more regional were, in fact, less so than Brown, eg, Duke at 32%, ND at 41% and even Vanderbilt at 49% were all less regionally concentrated than Brown at 53%.</p>

43

<p>hawkette, you also have to take into account the population densities within 500 miles of these schools, to properly evaluate how "regional" they are. Given that all of these schools draw from a relatively narrow portion of the applicant pool in terms of applicant qualifications, it's not surprising that Duke or Notre Dame would take lower percentages of their students from within a 500-mile radius than, say, Penn or Princeton, which are smack dab in the middle of the densely populated East Coast megalopolis. There are a lot more states--and of course people--in the 500-mile radius around those schools than around Duke and Notre Dame.</p>

44

<p>My theory:</p>

<p>Those (relatively few, comparatively) schools out of the Northeast that have extra-regional appeal can appear to be less regional than many of the Northeast schools.</p>

<p>Because the Northeast applicants are the ones with all the wherewithall: enough $$, home equity, prestige fixation,poorly reputed public colleges- to attend all these snooty schools in the first place. They cost about the same, wherever they are. So students from this one region are way over-represented applicants to all these schools. Whereas a higher proportion of students in all the other regions stay local.</p>

<p>And the students from, say midwest, who want to go Northeast to college have a choice of zillions of academically competitive schools in the Northeast region, so their applications are more spread out.</p>

<p>So a haughty private college in the midwest might have 40% students from Midwest, 30% from Northeast. (Just making up #s). And a comparable Northeast school might have 70% from Northeast, 5% from Midwest. Because relatively few Midwest students want to go out of region, whereas a relatively great proportion of Northeast students have no problem going out of region. And more of the few that want to go far away applied to one of the zillions of other NE choices instead of the college in question.</p>

<p>California people have the $$$ and the home equity too, but they have good public schools.</p>

<p>In at least some parts of the country, people don't think you have to go to a "prestige private" to get where you want to go. Locally, at least, which is all their focus. Where I used to live, people were just fine with sending kids to the flagship state U. Two valedictorians of my daughters' private school wound up choosing that state U over Ivy admissions.</p>

<p>The connections, contacts, etc, are all better in the region if you go to the state u.</p>

<p>The population density point is perhaps even more the issue.</p>

45

<p>My experience is colored by the fact that many of my not-so-terribly-good Connecticut public school teachers were Brown graduates. I snobbily thought it must not be that great if it was churning out teachers! I hope I have grown a bit since then, esp. as I soon figured out that in the late sixties and earliy seventies there were certain draft-related motivations for teaching. Yale grads, including our letter carrier (ne mailman), abounded locally as well in occupations that one does not necessarily associate with high-powered schools.</p>

46

<p>One way to get a reality check on which colleges have a draw in which states is to refer to the SAT reports for each state </p>

<p><a href="http://www.collegeboard.com/about/news_info/cbsenior/yr2007/reports.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.collegeboard.com/about/news_info/cbsenior/yr2007/reports.html&lt;/a> </p>

<p>which show, near the end of each state report, how many distinct students had SAT scores sent to which colleges (for a pagefull of the most popular colleges for each state). There are some huge variations in which colleges are hot in different states. One problem with these data is that they don't capture students who report only ACT scores to their colleges of choice, but it's a start for looking at regional patterns of college application.</p>

47

<p>45percenter,
I hear you on the population density matter, but it is not as clearcut today as it once was. The population is more broadly distributed than it used to be and is now much more in the South, West, and Southwest than you may realize. However, I concede that this is probably less so for the demographics of high school kids and probably you are right that a higher percentage are concentrated in the Northeast. </p>

<p>But weren't you a little surprised by some of those numbers? I was when I first read them. Given all the skeptical commentary on CC and elsewhere about the Southern universities, it is interesting to me how many of their students now come from more than 500 miles away. This is a big change from even a decade ago and underscores/demonstrates the commitments of these colleges to attract a more geographically (and probably religiously and ethnically) diverse group of students. </p>

<p>tokenadult,
Using the collegeboard data. I agree that they clearly show the preference in the home state for colleges in their state/region. The data supports the view that state/regional factors dominate application patterns and I would also argue that this has postgraduate implications as well. Brown is a fine college, but its power is relatively limited outside of the Northeast.</p>

48

<p>hawkette, I wasn't surprised about Duke's geographic diversity. It's been nationally popular for many, many years. My father applied there from the Northeast in the early 1950s, and I applied there from the Northeast in the early 1970s (as did some of my high school classmates).</p>

<p>I'm very aware of the general population shifts--I've kept up with that sort of thing since I was a kid. However, the Northeast is still MUCH more densely populated than the other regions, and when you're talking about 500-mile radii, there's still a major difference between the size of population you'll find in the Northeast compared to the Southeast, Southwest, West, etc. There are many more people in those regions vis-a-vis the Northeast than there used to be, but they're much more spread out.</p>

49

<p>
[quote]
Given all the skeptical commentary on CC and elsewhere about the Southern universities, it is interesting to me how many of their students now come from more than 500 miles away.

[/quote]

Well, Duke <em>is</em> known as TCNJ-Durham...</p>

50

<p>"But weren't you a little surprised by some of those numbers? "</p>

<p>Not in the least. I lived, recently, in the Northeast and in the Midwest. And experienced the different mindsets of the parent-type people in each place (both well-off suburbs, for their areas)towards spending $$ on private colleges far away. And observed the differences in the average income levels in each place. And paid the piper for the differences in housing costs, which lead directly to home equity-derived wealth for those who've had their houses for a good while.</p>

<p>Not at all surprised.</p>

51

<p>tokenadult, what fascinating information! I had no idea this was so fully available. Interesting to see the Ivies consistently crack the top 40 in so many states, as well as the regional differences.</p>

52

<p>On the 500 miles from home point, schools still in the Northeast but off the coast will include other large metro areas (Detroit, Cleveland) which also supply large numbers to the coastal schools but are not within that radius. It would not be surprising if Cornell, Carnegie Mellon, etc. have a higher percentage of students from within that radius. Five hundred miles east of the coast and you are just reaching schools of fish.</p>

53

<p>^ But what about the dolphins and whales? They're pretty smart. :)</p>

54

<p>well, i'll concede dolphins, whose admit rate is nearly 50%, but I hear the sperm whales are just hard partiers</p>

55

<p>Puh-leaze, sperm whales don't have anything on koala bears. Koalas sleep for 20 hours a day and spend the other four hours eating and mating. Researchers estimated that 40-50% of koalas have chlamydia. Good thing they're not in the radius of Cornell and CMU. :rolleyes:</p>

56

<p>Hah-Hah on Duke. I'd always heard people say it was a Northern school in the South. And that the most frequently heard question at freshman orientation was, "what exit off the NJ turnpike are you from?"</p>

<p>Also, I would bet that there are a lot of koala bears in the SAE fraternity.</p>

57

<p>They're not really bears, you know, or else they'd be at Brown:</p>

<p><a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2e/BrownUniversityBears.png%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2e/BrownUniversityBears.png&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Bringing this thread around full circle.</p>

58

<p>but I thought, at least on the little island of Mercy, where most of the koalas live (and party) off the Australian coast, they spend their time just drinking a lot of eucalyptus tea, not even bothering to filter it or pour it into something that would reserve the leaves or prevent them from floating around in their little tea cups. That is, of course, because the koala tea of Mercy is not strained....</p>

59

<p>Remember the point about population density. It is not just that there is a large population in the northeast, but there is also a small area. Consequently there is a high density. If a student lives in the northeast, and goes to college in the northeast, then they pretty much have to go to college within 500 miles of home. The region is not large enough to move 500 miles and remain in the northeast. If you live in the Midwest or West, you can go a very long way and stay in your region. </p>

<p>It would be more meaningful to look at the distribution of colleges. How many colleges did the student have to fly over to get from home to the college they attend?</p>

<p>The RP regional sample sizes are small. However, as noted above, they are larger than the number of participants in this thread. So, if one wants information, it is a survey of more opinions than the group of people contributing to this discussion. It sampled students who were applying to elite colleges, in order to draw a national list. Had it looked at all students, then the results would have been dominated by those attending their state colleges. Might have been interesting, but it would not have addressed the authors' goal of generating a preferences ranking nationally.</p>

<p>For the purposes of this discussion, name recognition among other elite colleges, it is a useful pool.</p>

60

<p>.. only if that's the specific pool that OP was interested in.</p>

<p>I interpreted the initial question to be more "the common man on the street".
For which I don't think it would be a useful pool.</p>

<p>So it all depends.</p>