Liberal Arts, a Lost Cause?

Parents Forum
41

Well, you certainly hear that sort of talk on CC, and you also hear it among hand-wringing humanities faculty. I’m just not so sure it’s true that undergraduate students are flocking to STEM fields; I’d like to see some hard evidence. At least at the top schools, that just doesn’t seem to be the case.

At Yale, for example, only 25% of the bachelor’s degrees awarded in 2013-2014 were in STEM majors. Of that, 10% were in biological sciences alone, and as ucbalumnus correctly points out, bio majors don’t have particularly lucrative job prospects with an undergraduate bio degree (though no doubt a high percentage of Yale bio majors go on to medical school). As many Yale grads majored in English (7%) as math and physical sciences combined (3% and 4%, respectively); another 7% majored in history.

At Harvard the STEM figure was higher, 37% (figures for 2012-2013). Still, that’s barely over 1/3 of the undergraduate degrees awarded. These are very bright and capable students who can study and do well at anything they want; yet by a landslide they do not choose STEM fields.

At Princeton about 40% chose STEM majors. At Dartmouth 30%. Even at STEM-heavy Stanford, the beating heart of Silicon Valley, more bachelor’s degrees were awarded in non-STEM fields (52%) than in STEM fields (48%).

But maybe students at these schools figure they don’t need STEM majors because after graduation they can simply waltz off to Wall Street, so they have the luxury of dabbling in whatever they want as undergrads ? Well, maybe. But at many leading public universities, the pattern is similar. At UC Berkeley, 42% STEM majors. At UCLA, 35%. At UVA, 36%. At Michigan, 40%. At UNC Chapel Hill, 25%.

The exact figures vary depending on things like whether the school offers engineering and, if so, how large is its engineering school (if it’s a separate school; some aren’t), whether it has a nursing school, etc. But the point is at all these schools there are more non-STEM than STEM majors.

It could well be that there’s been an uptick in STEM majors in recent years; if so, I’d like to see some data. But my sense is that most of the hand-wringing from humanities faculty comes not from an inability to fill undergraduate classrooms. The crisis they face is that their Ph.D. programs are faltering because there’s not much of a market for newly minted humanities Ph.D.s anymore due to the paucity of entry-level hiring in the humanities, and the kinds of students who in the past might have pursued humanities Ph.D.s are aware of it, and staying away in droves. And that is more the consequence of economic pressures within academia than anything else. Science, medicine, and engineering faculties can fund a lot of their costs (including grad students) through research grants from external sources, and top research universities are very good at snaring these kinds of grants, in many cases to the tune of hundreds of millions annually, in a few cases topping $1 billion annually. That kind of money just isn’t available in the humanities. So, to put it crassly, STEM fields are often profit centers for universities, while humanities fields are sinkholes of costs, and the universities are under a lot of financial strain and need to invest wisely. Consequently, when budgets and entry-level faculty hiring lines get allocated, more of that money will go to the STEM disciplines because STEM hiring offers a better ROI to the university. Also, because they are unable to generate substantial external grant money, costly humanities grad programs become more difficult to justify, given that they’re contributing to a glut of newly minted Ph.D.s who are unlikely to find tenure-track positions, or any work at all, in their field of expertise. Less entry level hiring in the humanities => less work for newly minted humanities Ph.D.s => less reward for earning a humanities Ph.D. => less demand for seats in humanities Ph.D. programs => faltering humanities graduate programs => shrinkage or elimination of many humanities graduate programs => even less need for entry-level hiring in the humanities. It’s a vicious cycle, and it goes on even if demand for undergraduate humanities classes remains strong.

42

Sometimes you see such quantitative evidence, but the problem is that it tends to be problematic. So, for example, there was much discussion in and around academia a couple years ago about a study that found that the percentage of degrees in fields like the languages (including English), philosophy, and history had declined quite a bit (in the case of history, precipitously) since 1970. This was seen as the sort of evidence of the decline of the humanities side of the liberal arts you asked for.*

There are a few alternative ways of viewing the evidence, though. So, for example, linguistics was still emerging as its own discipline in 1970, and at many universities now gets counted as part of the social sciences or even the sciences,** but at the time was nearly always a degree from a language or philosophy department. Similarly, communication studies has emerged quite strongly as one of the professions since 1970, but at the time people going into that field would have mostly gotten degrees in fields like English and history.

In addition, the late 60s to very early 70s were a high-water mark for the proportion of degree-seekers majoring in the humanities. If you compare the proportion of humanities graduates between now and the 50s or 20s (leaving aside the fact that fewer colleges now issue undifferentiated baccalaureate degrees, which generally default to being counted as liberal arts degrees, to their graduates), it’s a lot closer than comparing it to 1970.

  • I realize you actually asked for evidence of the rise of STEM fields—just work with me here, though, okay? :-) ** I'm a linguist, and I get kind of annoyed when my colleagues insist we're actually a science, and even more annoyed when administrators start to believe it. But that's a rant for another day and another forum.
43

Isn’t linguistics something that encompasses some of all of humanities, social studies, and science?

44

Well, it’s more that we’re a many-tentacled monster. :slight_smile:

I’m a sociolinguist—clearly social sciences. My colleagues in phonetics, many of them can lay claim to being in the hard sciences, I’d say. The semanticists and syntacticians are often, to a greater or lesser extent, working with cognitive science, but also humanities, and some do stuff that’s more akin to philosophy than anything else.

And so on.

45

Perhaps there are differences by region and by personal background, but I think that perhaps an even greater “passion” for or focus on STEM is in the applicant pool. Matriculation tells a different story.

Anecdotal data from my applicants, fleshed out a little more.

The Big Four:
First comes engineering
Second, tech
Third, bio
Fourth: econ [However, this is the one with the least passion expressed for it among all ten listed]

Tier 2:
Fifth: neuroscience
Sixth: physics
Seventh: chem

Tier 3:
Eighth: Poli Sci/ I.R.
Ninth: The Arts: Writing, Studio Art, Literature, Dance, Music Performance
Tenth: Tie for Math and History

46

Re: #44

Are these rankings of popularity among the applicants you see, as opposed to level of passion (since fourth place economics you note has the least passion expressed)?

Also, what is “tech” that you list second?

Do those interested in biology, neuroscience, and chemistry often express pre-medical interest?

47

^^ That’s a good point, epiphany (post #44). Lots of students apply to college and even matriculate thinking they’re going to be engineers or pre-meds, but the washout rates for both tend to be fairly high. Sometimes the classes prove just too hard, either actually beyond the student’s abilities or simply require more work to do well than the student cares to invest. Sometimes, especially among pre-meds at some schools, the level of cut-throat competition is a turn-off, even if the student is capable of competing successfully. Sometimes the subject matter proves less interesting than the student expected. Sometimes the student simply falls in love with another field that she stumbled into along the way. Sometimes the interest in a “practical” major with a strong ROI was more the parents’ idea than the student’s, and as the grip of parental expectations loosens a bit once the student is actually on campus and exploring a wide range of subjects and ideas, a reevaluation is made that sends the student in another direction. Or any combination of the above. Some of these students end up in other STEM fields, but many end up in non-STEM fields. There’s also some movement in the other direction, from non-STEM to STEM, but my guess would be that more students enter college with STEM ambitions than leave with STEM degrees.

48

Hi, ucb. Sorry I was doing other stuff today.

It’s simply the 4th most frequent choice of major when applying to schools. I have yet to run across a declaration for that major matched by any kind of enthusiasm. The reason I remember this is that it takes so long for them to sift through econ offerings and options at the college and express in their supplements an ounce of enthusiasm. An extreme case – I probably mentioned it a few months ago on CC, on a contentious thread in PF, concerned a student who outright expressed dislike of econ but an interest in attending Wharton. (OK. Good luck with that.) She wanted to attend Wharton not because she hoped to make tons of money in any kind of econ field but in a completely different field where she could use that undergrad major, combined with professional school (after which she could then make tons of money). Anyone can message me if you want more details.

But the other students haven’t been much more sincere about the actual subject matter. They state that they think it will be practical for some kind of a career, such as finance, accounting, business school.

CS/technology.

Some bio students, but of course not all bio students. Chemists tend to be interested just in exploring (they’re not sure which direction); some are interested in research. Neuroscience is definitely often a pre-med interest, perhaps even more so than bio. Right now one of my neuroscience undergrads will be going to FlexMed later; she was accepted in July.

49

Even those applying to the more liberal arts type of economics majors (e.g. BA economics at Penn A&S) rather than the more business flavored ones (e.g. BS economics at Penn Wharton)? Economics PhD students have to come from somewhere (or are they all doing math or statistics as undergraduates?).

What other majors have you seen the greatest and least passion for among students applying to colleges?

50

While most do not pursue STEM at many selective colleges, the percentage pursuing majors that students generally associate with a financially pragmatic career (engineering, biology/medicine, …) is notably increasing at many of these colleges. For example, in an earlier post I compared the most popular declared majors at Stanford last year to 10 and 20 years ago. The list is below, ordered from most to least declared students. Social Sciences and Humanities majors as a whole have had a notable decrease, while CS & Engineering have a had a notable increase. Stanford recently added the CS+X program that combines a CS major with a humanities major to support this trend by assisting “students who want to balance their academic passions with pragmatic considerations about their career development.”

1994 – Psychology, Biology, Economics, Human Biology, English, Political Science, History

2004 – Human Biology, Economics, Biology, Computer Science, Political Science, Psychology, English, International Relations

2014 – Computer Science, Human Biology, General Engineering, Science Technology & Society, Biology, Economics, Mechanical Engineering, Management Sciences & Engineering, Electrical Engineering

Stanford’s proximity to Silicon Valley no doubt has influenced the rise of tech majors and with it Stanford surpassing Harvard as the lowest admit rate US academic college, but the trend is not limited to west coast schools. For example, you mentioned 37% majored in STEM in Harvard’s 2012-13 CDS. In their 2006-07 CDS (the oldest on their website), 23% majored in STEM. That’s quite an increase for a 6 year period. Most other highly selective colleges that make it easy to switch between majors have also had notable changes in students’ major selections.

51

@ucbalumnus
Greatest passion, hands down, is the arts. (But notice how low it is in the pecking order.) Choosing that major is problematic on a number of fronts, but on the parental front most often. It is the area of greatest confrontation in my office, with the parent often suspicious that I “persuaded” or even “coerced” the student into such (an impractical) choice, which I never have, of course.

Second most passionate major is history or poli sci. In both cases – upper paragraph and this one – it’s a matter of the student unable to stop talking about it. It just flows. In one case a few years ago, the student was intellectually interested in medicine but utterly passionate about government, not to mention completely capable in that department (outstanding record in parliamentary debate; amazingly well read about contemporary politics, etc.). Same thing: couldn’t stop talking about it in his essays. Wrote long essays for G’town and Chicago about governmental reform. I was major annoyed that neither institution accepted him, but so it goes. He’s at a public headed for medicine, but I’m still hoping he’ll eventually end up in gov’t because he’s so insightful and so committed. And I regularly run into students who know what a local legend he is and are equally disappointed he didn’t go straight into poli sci.

The other real spirit that is shown is in cutting-edge, life-changing engineering, such as environmental and bio-engineering – inventions which can radically reverse some things that are happening environmentally in other countries, and devices which can revolutionize a patient’s life. Naturally it’s quite ennobling to see that as well!

CS by itself does not seem to engender such ardor, but perhaps it is just the nature of the beast – unless there is some other field to which the student is already interested in applying the CS. It’s kind of disappointing to me that so many have a rather shallow orientation toward CS – you know, recreation, social apps, basically creating products for those who already live a privileged lifestyle.

52

Facinating—my oldest is most emphatically not interested in neuroscience as a pre-med route, but rather almost as a social science, trying to figure out why humans behave with (I will readily admit) a more clear grounding in cognitive processes than my own cognitive-science-allied field. As a result, I hadn’t thought of neuroscience students as quite so focused on med school as, say, bio majors.

53

I do know a parent with a kid majoring in art. The parent is supportive of the choice. Probably helps that the kid is both talented at art and careful with money.

Do you think that he may be headed toward public policy in medical issues? Also, is his undergraduate major political science or something of that nature (which can be done alongside pre-med course work)?

Believe it or not, there are people who are genuinely passionate about CS. But they may be few and far between among the many pre-professionally oriented high school seniors who are flocking to CS now due to the recent relatively long period of industry growth. Of course, many of them will get “weeded out” by the first college CS course or few that show them that they are not really cut out for CS. Probably was the opposite situation back in 2002-2004 (deep computer industry downturn), when there were probably far fewer intended CS majors, but much more committed ones.

54

When I ask a little kid what they want to do when they grow up, they give engineer or doctor… but ask them WHY and they are all about wanting to be rich. I’m sure these kids get to college and realize these majors are HARD, decide they don’t need to be rich and choose some crappy major thinking they will still make ends meet. Of course there are low end majors that will lead you on a career of making coffee at starbucks (women’s studies, history, sociology, psychology, philosophy, Spanish, generic business degrees etc all without a double major). There are majors where you will work and eat and not ask people if they would like fries with that: education, social work, speech pathology, nursing and so on, but you will not likely make the more than 6 figures on current inflation buying power. Then you have majors where many graduates do quite nicely: engineering (many CEOs majored in engineering) bio/pre med, accounting, math, basically HARD majors… Plus, these people don’t think about how they will have to go to grad school until they are at college and hear peers talking about it in a real way.

55

This has become true fairly recently, but I’d still argue that many students are very passionate about CS, partly because school isn’t enough to prepare students for the software development and CS industry. For CS majors not interested in this industries it may be different.

56

@MyCCscreenname,

I’m impressed. It takes talent to insult this many people with just one post.

Or it could be that they grow up and realize their career prospects go beyond doctor, lawyer, businessman and fireman. When I was a little kid I wanted to be an explorer. My (now CEO) husband wanted to be a professional soccer player. I don’t know a little kid who has the foggiest idea about what engineering is, and I certainly don’t see a lot of kids on the playground jonesing for a career in engineering.

Or you could major in communications and become the CEO of Starbucks like Howard Schultz.

Oh woe is me! How will poor little old empty-headed Sue22 ever make a living with a crappy low end BA in English? Oh wait, I forgot I own a manufacturing company that employs over 1,000 people. Any of you cocksure engineers need a job?

57

Most choosing one of those either do double major or have plans to go to professional school. And there is more utility to some on that list than you may realize: psychology is very helpful in the business world, sociology (or affectionately, “sohsh”) in public policy, in working professionally in any urban environment, Spanish, the same – as well as in Hispanic business markets and obviously in Latin American I.R. Women’s studies could have application, but in a much narrower market. As to philosophy, you’d be surprised how it’s been gaining traction recently among high school students. That’s because there’s been such a dearth of it in education. I won’t go into the many discussions I’ve had with my students as to its contemporary applicability, but it is something on their minds in some practical ways.

I do get your point; I am merely being Devil’s Advocate for a reason. Most students do understand that majors, interests, and further education will need to be combined. And you are completely right about the initial attraction to engineering and medicine being largely financial, with lots of fantasy assumptions about “easy money,” until the rubber meets the road, academically.

@SaintSaens
(Classy screen name). My desirous CS majors are interested in the industry itself, but I think have no clue what it takes to do well there. They also have very little focus beyond what they are already doing – how they themselves are already using technology as teenagers. Being comfortable with technology is not an indication that you will be the next famous wealthy entrepreneur.

58

No, he wouldn’t want to apply it in that way. His interest is in the workings of government itself and the place of politics within that. His undergrad major is pre-med, with interest in cardiology. Once he was accepted to a research university, he abandoned the other direction. :((

59

Oh, really? I was a philosophy major, and let’s just say I make a sufficiently comfortable living that both of my daughters were full-pays at elite private colleges. And no, I don’t make coffee at Starbucks.

I’m not alone. Others have done far better than I financially. Ted Turner, billionaire philanthropist and founder of CNN and TBS, was a classics major at Brown, much to the consternation of his father who said he “almost puked” when he learned that Ted had declared classics as his major. Activist investor and multi-millionaire Carl Icahn was a philosophy major at Princeton. Former Disney CEO Michael Eisner was a double major in English and theater at Denison. Hank Paulson, former Goldman Sachs CEO and Treasury Secretary under George W. Bush was an English major at Dartmouth. Current Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein was a history major at Harvard. Billionaire hedge fund manager George Soros was a philosophy major at the London School of Economics. Bain Capital CEO Mitt Romney was an English major at Brigham Young. Ken Chenault, CEO at American Express, was a history major at Bowdoin. Richard Anderson, CEO at Delta Airlines, was a political science major at the University of Houston. Brian Moynihan, CEO of Bank of America, was a history major at Brown. Larry Fink, CEO of the investment firm BlackRock, was a political science major at Duke. Sam Palmisano, former CEO at IBM widely credited with revitalizing the company, was a history major at Johns Hopkins. The list goes on, but I think you get the picture.

I guess these people never got the memo that said they were destined to careers making coffee at Starbucks. And they never figured out that they were supposed to view their four years of college as a trade school. Instead they frittered away those four years expanding their intellectual horizons, sharpening their critical thinking and analytical skills, learning to communicate effectively through the written and spoken word, and gaining insight into the human condition. Such a waste! And look where it got them! Worst of all, some of them have the audacity still to defend their choices of major. Eisner, for example, has been quoted as saying: “Literature is unbelievably helpful, because no matter what business you are in, you are dealing with interpersonal relationships. It gives you an appreciation of what makes people tick.”

60

Huh? Most schools do not have a “pre-med” undergraduate major, since pre-med courses can be taken with any major (including social studies majors like political science). Do you mean to say that his major is some major common among pre-meds, like biology?