<p>Endoftheworld - you’re missing the point. Pomona only has top kids making it in. If you take that same small segment and put them into another college, they’d have also been successful barring anything weird happening. Ditto that for Yale or any other top college with similar entrance stats. Perhaps Pomona has some grade deflation (as does Cornell and some others) that shift their stats down a point or two, but that same 3.5 student would have been a 3.7 student at a different college - and would have med school acceptances.</p>
<p>Top students can make it into med school from pretty much any college they attend as long as they are certain other students have done the same before them. It doesn’t matter if the admissions stats are 30% or 100% (and yes, I’ve seen 100% stats). What one needs to “beware of” is that some schools (not all) get their high stats due to restricting who may apply to med school - they must have certain (generally successful) stats. They won’t support those they aren’t sure will be successful and that kills their chance. However, the same table you link to shows that roughly 1 in 5 with a 3.0 GPA make it in. If the school you go to won’t allow you to apply with a 3.0 (or advises you against it causing you not to apply), then you don’t even have that chance. The school has killed your dream. How many students from Pomona apply with a 3.0 and how many of those made it in? If there were none applying, beware. They were likely not supported or advised to not even bother trying. If there were some (whether they made it in or not), then there’s no problem.</p>
<p>Unlike college admissions that have multiple factors which may explain a candidate being rejected with good SAT scores and GPA, unless there are mitigating circumstances, a good MCAT ( 30 or more) and a 3.6 GPA with excellent grades in the core science cores will lead to an acceptance to a US allopathic medical school!</p>
The OP has contributed to several threads with what I’m sure is justifiable pride in Pomona. Nothing wrong with being a booster. As a top LAC, I bet Pomona is a place where you can get personal attention from a devoted faculty, in a setting of engaged like-minded students. But this post goes beyond enthusiasm, arguing its something they do at Pomona they causes students get into med school at a higher rate. The argument chain is as follows [ol][<em>]Pomona kids have a 93% med school acceptance rate[</em>]A value-add analysis comparing the admit rate of Pomona applicants against national applicants with the same stats shows Pomona kids get in at a much higher rate [li]to get this higher-than-expected rate “Pomona must be doing something BEYOND just the student”[/ol]Sadly there are problems with each chain of the argument.</p>[/li]
<p>First off, the premed office at Pomona publishes their acceptance rate. Here is the data, from slide 32 of <a href=“http://www.medsci.pomona.edu/ppt/selecting-medical-schools.pdf[/url]”>http://www.medsci.pomona.edu/ppt/selecting-medical-schools.pdf</a> [ul][<em>]2002 - 66% [</em>]2003 - 69% [<em>]2004 - 75% [</em>]2005 - 66% [<em>] 2006 - 68% [</em>] 2007 - 72% [<em>] 2008 - 82% [</em>] 2009 - 76% [li]2010 - 79%[/ul]Do you read these values and conclude Pomona’s acceptance rate is 93%? Me neither.</p>[/li]
<p>Second, the value-add analysis reflects an improper application of statistics. The table referenced by EndOfTheWorld gives the admit rate for each cohort of students applying with a given range of MCAT and GPA scores. EndOfTheWorld uses the average of all Pomona kids to find their expected admit rate in the table. Is it likely all the Pomona applicants fell into the range of a single MCAT/GPA entry of the table? No, its not, so the expected admit rate used is invalid.</p>
<p>Third, even if Pomona kids are accepted at a higher rate that predicted by just their GPA and MCAT, is the only possible explanation that it “must” be something Pomona is doing? Again, think of who we are talking about here. You don’t get into a top LAC that has a 14% accept rate and astounding average SAT scores simply by applying with a good HS GPA and SAT. Most of their applicants have that. The ones they take also have strong ECs, great letters of rec, essays that stand out. All significant factors in med school admissions as well. If those kids merely keeping on doing what they’ve already been doing they are going to have a better chance of med school admissions than the average applicant with a matching MCAT and GPA.</p>
<p>So can you get a good education at Pomona? Absolutely! Do they have some magic touch that boosts your odds of med school admission? Nothing presented so far indicates Pomona does anything other than provide top-notch undergrads the opportunity to succeed, much as they will at many other schools.</p>
<p>Mike - glad you posted the real stats - and took time to type out more to go with it.</p>
<p>A reminder to all: Don’t drink the Kool Aid with regards to med school acceptances. Ask to see the proof in writing and remember that stats can be deceptive pending how they are presented.</p>
<p>Unlike college admissions that have multiple factors which may explain a candidate being rejected with good SAT scores and GPA, unless there are mitigating circumstances, a good MCAT ( 30 or more) and a 3.6 GPA with excellent grades in the core science cores will lead to an acceptance to a US allopathic medical school!</p>
<p>^^^ This! </p>
<p>The key is a thoughtful app list. If you’re only applying to tippy-top ranked SOMs, then your chances will be lowered. If you misstep and apply to a bunch of OOS publics that favor instate or “tied” applicants, you’re going to be disappointed. </p>
<p>Keep in mind that EVERY US MD school is very good. None are “so so”. </p>
<p>Most SOMs have very low acceptance rates. A mid-tier SOM may get 6000 apps, interview 600, and accept 300 (hoping to get a final yield of maybe 150). That means 10% get interviewed, and the acceptance rate is 5%. Some of the interviewed, but not accepted, will get put on the school’s wait-list. </p>
<p>US MD SOMs have a very flat instruction; they all teach the same things. Unless you’re interested in academic medicine, attending a tippy top med school is not necessary. An acceptance to any one US MD school is an achievement. Every year, kids with good stats end up with no acceptances because they naively apply to SOMs that they have virtually no chance for acceptance.</p>
<p>The OP should be aware that Holy Cross is one of the colleges that screens it’s applicants to medical school as discussed in post 21. If the committee does not think she has a strong chance of admission, they will give her a letter that says she is not recommended. In effect this prevents her from applying.</p>
<p>Holy Cross has new $75 million science building, and is need-blind for admissions. HC has a Nobel Prize in medicine winner among its alumni one of the few if not only LAC that can make such claim.</p>
<p>You must be referring to Holy Cross alum Joseph E. Murray, who won the Nobel Prize in Medicine in 1990 for his pioneering work on the first successful kidney transplant in 1954. Stellar accomplishment, but he graduated Holy Cross in 1940, which makes that particular little factoid of dubious relevance to today’s prospective student.</p>
<p>Nor are Nobel Prizes in Medicine all that rare for LAC alums. Just going back the last 30 years, I found these:</p>
<p>Paul Greengard, Hamilton, 2000
Ferid Murad, DePauw, 1998
Phillip A. Sharp, Union, 1993
Joseph E. Murray, Holy Cross, 1990
J. Michael Bishop, Gettysburg, 1989
Harold Varmus, Amherst, 1989
Joseph L. Goldstein, Washington & Lee, 1985</p>
<p>So, nice try, but the claim that Holy Cross is somehow unique in this regard is false. I do acknowledge, however, that far more Nobel Laureates in medicine got their undergraduate degrees at American public flagships.</p>
<p>^ Holy Cross is not unique for having a swanky new science building, either. Those seem to be almost as common as climbing walls at selective LACs.</p>
<p>What does set HC apart is that it is one of the least selective of those 19. This is not to say there aren’t less selective LACs (and universities) that meet 95% or more of determined need, and usually consider need as an admission factor only in borderline cases.</p>
<p>I think that its deceptive that schools are boasting their high med school matriculation rates when they are cherry picking the candidates! I am glad that I found this out last spring. So many schools play the “shell game” and lull unsuspecting students/parents into believing that they are better than XYZ school b/c they send more students to medschool. Especially for those of us who lack degrees/are new to this whole process. Thanks CC members for shedding a light on the trickery~!</p>
<p>I strongly suggest you look at the data and not merely rely on claims the colleges make. In short, the best indicator of future performance is the past. </p>
<p>There are many potential schools. What are the geographic limitations?</p>
<p>This exactly the information, I am looking for my D as well. She is a Junior and is interested in applying for Pre Med/Combined programs.
Her stats:
SAT score at this time is 2050 [1st sitting]. She has a lot of ECs, volunteering, Science clubs, school news paper editor, research etc. Multiple APs [so far about 7 I think, planning to take few more in the senior year]. </p>
<p>But based on the information provided in this board, does not have the SAT scores to get in to a combined med program. She will be retaking the SAT, but who knows which way the scores will end up and if it will be enough. So we are begining to look at Plan B.
Even though I saw great debate about the pre med topic, there was no list or suggestion in any of the above posts. I am sure there are other threads. But if any of you can please post some suggestions/list it will be appreciated. </p>
<p>We are looking for:
East Coast schools, open to good schools in Midwest as far as Chicago and St Louis.
Schools with pre med advising which does not “filter” students in their stats.
NY resident, so anything closer.
Colleges with open curriculum and travel abroad opportunities.
Cost - Would prefer a college with reasonable costs, but she will be eligible for only merit scholarship, so I guess it doesnt matter.
That is all I can think of at this time, but I am sure I will have more questions. Thanks for your posts.</p>
<p>Your child is only a junior in high school. It’s too early to be certain that med school will be in her future. Probably only about 10-20% of student who claim to be pre-med as freshmen in college actually ever attend med school. </p>
<p>Your D would be best be in a college that would allow her to choose a different career route in case she changes her mind, doesn’t get the A’s in her pre-med pre-reqs, doesn’t end up with a high cum GPA and BCMP GPA. </p>
<p>Med school is very expensive, so unless you’re going to pay for that as well, you might want to consider undergrad cost so your D won’t end up with mega debt if she does end up attending med school.</p>
<p>Rocdude - Obviously the U Rochester should be a consideration… though they do limit pre-med reqs to a 3.0 or higher I believe. (Our thought was that if lower than a 3.0, med school probably wasn’t a good choice for the lad.) They may fail your “reasonable costs” test, but it doesn’t hurt to check.</p>
<p>Open curriculum schools can be harder to find. There’s Brown, of course, but they aren’t exactly easy to get into and don’t offer merit aid. Do a search for open curriculum schools and start looking at each of those.</p>
<p>Travel abroad ops are available pretty much anywhere.</p>
<p>For good merit aid, put her stats and desires in the college search function and see what comes up. When you start getting schools that overlap (open curriculum and merit aid, etc), look at those more closely for pre-med.</p>
<p>Many, many schools can work for pre-med itself.</p>
<p>What major(s) is she interested in?</p>
<p>Oh, and for BS/MD places will want to see extensive med experience from somewhere (shadowing, volunteer work, clinic work, or similar). As we were told, “We want to see enough to know the student has made an educated choice about going into the med field - not just likes it due to House or other reasons.” Then she’ll need top stats. Pretty much anyone who makes it in will have succeeded with med school admissions anyway.</p>
<p>Pretty much anyone who makes it in will have succeeded with med school admissions anyway</p>
<p>Exactly…the assumption for BS/MD programs is that if the student has amazing test scores and GPA, then likely s/he would have high undergrad GPA and a “good enough” MCAT score. However, even with amazing stats, these BS/MD programs probably have at least 50 apps for every available seat, so getting accepted is very difficult.</p>
<p>I know many like the BS/MD programs because they worry that they won’t get into med school the traditional way. Heck, if you can’t get into med school the traditional way, then you probably don’t have the aptitude for medicine.</p>
<p>Frankly, I’m not sure I like the BS/MD programs. I liken them to the “old days” when young boys went to seminary schools to become future clergy. For some, that’s fine. For others, they miss out on the opportunity to explore and become more well-rounded before making such a serious decision. </p>
<p>My younger son could have chosen the BS/MD route, but decided against it with our full support. Instead he chose to have a more traditional undergrad experience. He’s a college senior now, with med school acceptances, so he will be in med school come August. When he’s well into his practice, I think he’ll look back at his undergrad years as being some of his most fun times.</p>