Liberal arts college vs. University

College Search & Selection
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<p>Thanks everyone for taking your time to help me! I appreciate it.</p>

<p>I think I would fit in better at an LAC, but at the same time I want to know if I could make it at a larger university like Harvard. Should I take the easy way or the challenging one?</p>

<p>It sounds as if Dartmouth (which has been one of my top choices) would be an excellent decision since it is an “LAC-like university”. The best of both worlds in one pair of shoes sounds great! What other similar colleges are there?</p>

<p>I have my doubts about LACs, because some say they tend to attract students who major in subjects that do not require as much math. Is it true that you will find more math-lovers at universities? It is very important to me that the school I go to not only consists of people who major in literature, history and English, but also in engineering, physics and math. Does anyone have any suggestions of schools which would meet my requirements?</p>

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<p>you can probably look up the proportions of majors in each subject someplace, but I don’t know where. My guess is the general situation is that most LACs will graduate fewer than ten physics major per year, more likely half that in many cases. So you will be looking for the exceptions, which I think do exist. I’ve read good things about the departments at Swarthmore, Carleton, Williams and Reed. only a few LACs offer so much as a single engineering course. On the other hand, math is a more common major, at many of them. Harvey Mudd calls itself an LAC, but as far as I know, unlike every single other entity that calls itself an LAC, it offers no majors other than science, math or engineering.</p>

<p>The LACs I know of that offer engineering courses and majors are Swarthmore, Bucknell, Lafayette, Union and Trinity.</p>

<p>These are schools that get mentioned for these majors or programs, but as I said, for any of these schools I don’t know how many students are actually in all these majors at any time.</p>

<p>Smaller universities may include Rice, Brown, Tufts, Rochester. I don’t know how “LAC-like” any of them are. Could alternatively be “worst of both worlds”, TAs plus not that great course selection. I’ve wondered about this, but I don’t know, you should check it out.</p>

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<p>Some points.</p>

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<li><p>Those experiences were from a larger sample size than just Hanna. More importantly, some in that sample size were taking more advanced/intensive language courses as grad students in GSAS. None had to repeat any language coursework and all felt superbly prepared by the quality/rigor of language instruction at my LAC. </p></li>
<li><p>It may just be that Japanese/East Asian studies may not be one of Haverford’s greatest strengths. Oberlin’s East Asian studies/language programs is one of the college’s strengths among those who are in the East Asian Studies field. On the other hand, some higher ranked LACs either didn’t have East Asian studies/languages at the time I applied…or they were severely limited in their emphasis. Several other classmates turned down admission to Vassar, Carleton, Bowdoin, Haverford, Georgetown, JHU, and Davidson because of this very issue. </p></li>
<li><p>I’m wondering if a part of this is some need by some cc parents to hype up the Ivies over other topflight universities/LACs. Even when I know from firsthand experience and from chatting with several people who have taken courses/attended both that the academic differences are minimal for the most part…except for larger class sizes and having to deal with hit/miss TA/TFs(I happened to get a great TF though several other classmates ended up with horrid ones who can’t explain the topic to save their hides). Then again, I have never met any Haverford/Bryn Mawr students who did…so I don’t know…</p></li>
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<p>That really depends on the LACs and what you are looking for from your undergraduate education. </p>

<p>I knew several neuroscience, chemistry, biology, and physics majors along with a few 3-2 engineering students. Most end up doing PhDs in their fields…though the engineering students have gone on to work in that field…and a few ended up working finance careers on Wall Street(Mainly ones who ended up doing the last two years at Columbia SEAS).</p>

<p>As for math, I knew several math majors as well…including one fellow high school classmate from my NYC specialized magnet high school. She studied pure math and said applied mathematicians may be frustrated with the department.</p>

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<p>“3. I’m wondering if a part of this is some need by some cc parents to hype up the Ivies over other topflight universities/LACs.”</p>

<p>Quite the contrary, it’s to put a more realistic view to the hype presented here by LAC proponents. My kids road that train, and encountered some very real limitations socially, and academically due to course offering limitations, that people should be aware of in making this decision. Former CC poster Marite’s son had much the same experience. The LAC hypers would have one believe all is nirvana, but the limitations encountered were very real. There is not just one side to the story, as the LAC hypers insist, in fact there are tradeoffs. Hanna is not a cc parent, she is a student who transfered from an LAC to a university, and preferred the university. My D2 is another. They have actually really lived in both worlds, unlike most of you others, their reports are valid and should be heard.</p>

<p>“neuroscience”, " biology"… do not require all that much math, necessarily, as far as I can tell.</p>

<p>“3-2 engineering students” take no engineering classes at the LAC, as it has none. And constitute no more than a handful of students at any LAC, as far as I’m aware.</p>

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<p>You can look up how many degrees are granted by major when you look up colleges here:
[College</a> Navigator - National Center for Education Statistics](<a href=“http://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/]College”>http://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/)</p>

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<p>Great link. Wow, Carleton had 21 physics majors, that’s quite a lot I think. Williams had two.</p>

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<p>You can also look them up in the Common Data Set file of every school that publishes one. They are in section J, “Degrees Conferred”. Google for [college name] + “Common Data Set”. You may need Adobe Acrobat Reader or MS Excel to display the file.</p>

<p>For selective LACs, the number of math + CS + science majors typically ranges from the low teens to over 30%.</p>

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<p>Seems like that navigator link is easier (if it has correct info). Based on what I just looked at, best to actually look at particular schools of interest, there seems to be some wide variation.</p>

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<p>It’s not that LAC’s are easier and universities are harder - LACs simply provide more face to face advising and discussing with professors. Elite universities like Harvard provide similar personal engagement. Going to Harvard isn’t “harder” than going to Williams.</p>

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<p>What subjects require math? Engineering, math itself… what else? Yes, most LACs don’t have engineering, but they have science and math departments just like universities, albeit with less research (and more teaching) going on.</p>

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<p>I’m not saying that all is nirvana. </p>

<p>However, the problems you have described with your daughters are not unique to just LACs as many universities also have weak/non-existent departments/specialties. </p>

<p>Had college classmates who transferred from/turned down admission to Georgetown, JHU, and Brandeis because they felt the East Asian Studies course selection in their sub-field was too limited and insubstantial for their own interests.</p>

<p>Moreover, if you’re interested in using a more qualitative approach in the study of politics…especially in the comparative area…even undergrads may not find NYU to be very satisfying judging by what I’ve heard from several friends who taught or attended as grad/undergrad students whereas Oberlin’s politics department is the near opposite so obsessive poli-sci quant-jocks may be better off at NYU.</p>

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<p>I know that universities aren’t harder, but it feels like it would be nice to have someone who guides you through college. Then again, I would like to have the possibility to change major to something completely different after two years and therefore maybe I should attend a university.</p>

<p>I want to go to a college where students are interested in math (in general). It could be students who major in physics, science, math, engineering or even maybe economics or architecture. When I think about it, MIT would be the perfect place, but I am not very fond of its campus. I also want to go to a school which is secluded from everything else, because I want to belong somewhere. Is perhaps Cornell and Dartmouth good options for me (if I can get in)?</p>

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<p>Cornell has a large and to some high school classmates/relatives…an impersonal feel about it. If you’re looking for an LAC feel…Cornell is the last place I’d look for it judging by the dozens of high school classmates and relatives who are alums from there. It has the feel of a large state university…and a part of it is a land-grant state university. </p>

<p>One older cousin who was pre-med biochemistry/sociology double-major said to be prepared for large classes…especially in the intro-intermediate STEM courses. Heard the largest class there was an intro to psych class with over 1000 students!</p>

<p>Dartmouth and Princeton are two Ivies with an LAC feel with what you’re looking for. If you’re willing to forgo engineering, add UChicago to your list. </p>

<p>If you are a hardcore science/engineering person, Harvey Mudd and Caltech are two good places to consider. </p>

<p>Oberlin fulfills most of your requirements and you will meet a decent number of STEM majors if my experience there is anything to go on. I took two CS programming courses for majors there and it was challenging…yet the Prof went all out to help us. (Shoutout to Prof. Geitz!). </p>

<p>However, if you want a heavily cutthroat competitive science-tech school feel, Oberlin won’t provide that…especially considering being cutthroat or grade grubbing is considered very uncool in the campus culture.</p>

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<p>Cornell would be a good option for you based on your post #31, not necessarily based on any prior posts here. That’s where D2 is, she loves it. She is not a math/sci person in the least however. I can tell you, from personal experience, the sciences are no cakewalk there. Though MIT is yet more demanding. But it is a research university, you will have large classes, and TAs, in many lower level courses. On the other hand you will have a 700+page course catalog. D2 loves it there. I loved it too, except I was not smart enough to do very well there.</p>

<p>Dartmouth supposedly has a good math and CS department, and has a small engineering school. I would guess that the number of science majors is much lower there. However you have the tool to investigate that, per prior post #25.</p>

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<p>Are you my uncle’s long-lost twin? ;)</p>

<p>He always said that to everyone he meets. I found that hard to believe considering he received a BS in physics in 3 years at Beloit, a BS in Civil Engineering from Columbia SEAS in 2 years, and then a masters in Civil Engineering from Columbia after another year.</p>

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<p>I certainly wouldn’t limit that to a university. Most of the upperclassmen I know at my LAC have changed their major at least four times.</p>

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<p>This poster, “informative” [sic], has made this argument elsewhere, and it’s absolutely disproved by statistics on which colleges and universities excel in Ph.D. generation in the hard sciences.</p>

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Only two/three LACs - depends on if you count service academies - graduated over 20 physics majors in 08/09: USNA, Carleton College (MN), and Allegheny College ¶.</p>

<p>Other relatively highly-enrolled physics programs include Grinnell, Harvey Mudd, and Reed. The next tier would probably be Middlebury, Lawrence, Colgate, Gustavus Adolphus (???), St. Olaf, Morehouse, Gettysburg, and Furman.</p>

<p>As far as math is concerned, I’d look at St. Olaf.</p>

<p>There’s lots of data on IPEDS to play with if the OP is interested.</p>

<p>If all the OP wants is a small environment, some small tech schools may be of interest.</p>

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<p>Just a couple points raised in prior post #32:</p>

<p>"…cutthroat or grade grubbing " this was part of a response asking about Cornell. By saying such would not be at Oberlin, reasonable inference is that author is claiming it is prevalent at Cornell. I attended there myself, and D2 is there now, I did not witness such behavior there and D2 has not mentioned any. It is academically demanding, as most of the top schools are, but its not like people are stealing your homework. I participated in many study groups to study for exams. The math/science areas are relatively tough everyplace, and Cornell has relatively a lot of math/science students.
I cannot speak for conduct of pre-med students,either there or anywhere else, since I was not on that track. I was in physics & engineering, and saw no problems of that sort.</p>

<p>“Heard the largest class there was an intro to psych class with over 1000 students!”</p>

<p>You say that like it’s a bad thing. Actually that course is famous, it is the most desired course on campus. Because the professor is great. That’s why they don’t break it up, if they did the other sections would be worse. Intro psychology is a lecture class at most schools. To me, frankly, once the professor is just lecturing and there is not a high degree of interactivity, it doesn’t make all that much difference if he is lecturing to 85 students or 1,000 students. Either way, you are pretty much just sitting there listening and taking notes. In that case it becomes much more important that the person you are listening to is an inspiring lecturer. Which is the case here. If it wasn’t, they would have broken up the course years ago. Prof. Maas has been teaching the course for over 40 years. There are many students taking that course in recent years who had a parent who took the same course, with the same Prof. The course has iconic status there.</p>

<p>That is just the lecture, obviously it breaks down into reasonable-sized recitation sections as per standard university practice, and there also some small specialized units one can take, associated with the course, for additional credit IIRC.</p>

<p>In general I do not prefer huge lecture classes, one still learns the material but there’s certainly a less personal feel. However, though I did not take it, Prof. Maas’s course would likely be an obvious exception. From what I’ve gleaned, the largest courses of my generation have been broken down more in the current era. Maas’s course is an exception, for a reason. Every year the course gets among the highest ratings on campus.</p>

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<p>My pre-med cousin who attended Cornell in the mid-late '90s said one of the most annoying things was the constant “grade-grubbing” and academic one-ups-manship she experienced from fellow classmates…especially pre-meds. She felt it was downright petty and tried to tune it out as best as she could…and she graduated as an A/-A level student from there so it wasn’t because she couldn’t cut the mustard there. </p>

<p>Dozens of high school classmates who are Cornell alums said the competitive atmosphere was almost exactly like our NYC specialized public magnet school. And most of them were STEM majors…including a decently sized cohort in the engineering school. </p>

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<p>For some students, having excessively large lecture classes like that significantly reduces the chances of good student-professorial interactions in and out of class. A few may even fall through the cracks because they feel like they’re being treated “like a number rather than an individual person”. </p>

<p>Personally, I did fine in large lecture classes of up to 300 people. My Harvard stats course was that size and I had no problems raising my hand answering questions, being grilled by the Prof on the material(Loved to use a variant on the Socratic method), and even delivering a 10 minute presentation in front of the whole class.</p>

<p>However, I didn’t feel such large lecture classes were optimal educationally nor for developing closer student-faculty relationships. It had far too much of a large impersonal institutional feel that clashed with my ideal of what a collegiate experience should be…especially after spending most of my K-12 years in NYC public schools.</p>

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<p>I did not hear many comments that reinforce the views you attribute to you cousin, or those “dozens of other people from your high school”, or everyone you’ve ever met. But then, I only went there. People on an intenet forum have to decide who to give credence to. Both here, and every other place where these dozens of people from one’s high school are brought in as reinforcement.</p>