My son is interested in studying jazz (sax) at a conservatory that’s connected to a liberal arts school, like Oberlin, Peabody/Johns Hopkins, Blair/Vanderbilt, Bard, McGill. Is the criteria easier re: grades/scores? Or is there a lot more room? He’s a Junior now. Thanks.
I would not call “McGill” a “liberal arts college”. McGill is of course a very strong university with an exceptional music program. The music facilities there are quite impressive. I have heard that the program is academically challenging in addition to being musically challenging.
If you are looking for a small school such as a liberal arts college that has a good music program, there are some in Canada, but they are nearly completely unknown in the US. From what I have heard Acadia University in Nova Scotia might have the best music program of the various “small primarily undergraduate” universities in Canada. Several others are good and I do not know which would be best for jazz.
I am not sure precisely what you are asking. Are you asking about how difficult admissions will be? In general for music performance admissions includes an audition, which to me makes it hard to quantify.
Just threw McGill in there at the last moment as I know they are great for jazz, but I know little about it. Not really interested in Canada. I’m asking if, assuming he does a very good job with the audition, a school such as Peabody, Oberlin, or Blair also expects the same level of grades/scores that JH, O, or Vanderbilt would expect in a non-conservatory student. (He’s an A - student so far who doesn’t tend to do amazingly well on standardized tests.)
Also, for liberal arts colleges with strong music departments and orchestras, look at Williams. The music major is very robust and similar to what is available at a conservatory.
My son’s friend is applying to McGill to study jazz and from what I understand admission is audition-based. Grades and test scores are not a factor. I don’t know about the others. Other schools you may want to consider though they are not LACs are CMU, Syracuse, Rice, Loyola New Orleans, USC, University of North Texas, Temple, Indiana/Jacobs School, Northwestern, Miami, Ithaca, Western Michigan.
Thanks! Yes, same question: normally we wouldn’t consider a school like Northwestern as I think he’d need a higher GPA, but if it’s the music program, maybe there’s some flexibility there (so long as his grades are generally good).
If it is in the budget, I might consider working with a private college counselor that specializes in applying to conservatories/music schools and programs. Perhaps just an hour or two consult would suffice.
FWIW I don’t think LACs with music major/non-audition programs are as robust as conservatories, most (all?) of which are audition based. At conservatories/defined music schools I expect it varies as to the level of ‘give’ on the academic stats side.
Good luck.
Thanks, maybe we need to do that. Just have no insight on applying to conservatories.
Has he considered the Eastman School of Music, which is affiliated with the University of Rochester? They have a strong jazz studies department and students can take classes in the liberal arts at the main URochester campus:https://www.esm.rochester.edu/admissions/ugrad/ba/
Interesting question. The answer is, it depends upon the school. Some schools are more concerned only with the person’s audition, and less with their academic achievement. Some want both. For example, U Michigan is usually very competitive academically, but I have seen several kids who were great jazz players, but mediocre students, wind up there, plus they got money, too (and they weren’t obviously in any need). They would NEVER have gotten in there, had they been being judged on their academic achievement alone.
I would add Lawrence University if you are looking for a LAC with a Conservatory.
Thanks, this was what I was wondering, whether we should consider a range of schools including those he might not otherwise get in…
Others that may be good to look at are UMiami https://jazz.frost.miami.edu/ and U of Denver https://www.jazzatlamont.com/ , as well as Lawrence which was mentioned above https://www.lawrence.edu/conservatory/areas_of_study/jazz_improvisational_music
Regarding LACs not having an audition, they did review your performances and recordings as part of the supplemental information. The benefit of the LAC is that you have a more diversified academic experience but can still pursue your passions. The quality of the music majors at a top LAC are just as impressive as at a conservatory.
Vanderbilt and JHU are liberal arts UNIVERSITIES—they are research-driven with a liberal-arts focused undergraduate curriculum (distribution requirements, general education etc.) Undergraduates typically study in a “college”----universities are subdivided into multiple schools (medicine, law, graduate school etc.) and the undergraduate college is one of the schools. Both schools (JHU/Peabody dual-degree and Vanderbilt Blair) are extremely competitive and expect top grades and test scores as well as a strong music portfolio.
McGill is a university as well, but the Canadian model (like much of the world) does not have a general education curriculum—degree’s are typically completed in 3 rather than 4 years. Each “course” typically has a page that details its admissions policies and degree requirements.
Oberlin and Bard are liberal arts COLLEGES—they are primarily undergraduate-focused (though some LACs offer graduate degrees) and share much of the same curricula as their national university peers. LACs, just like universities, vary widely in terms of selectivity and admission criteria.
Choose Vanderbilt/JHU if you want the resources of a top research university but the smaller feel of a LAC. McGill if you’re interested in only studying your major, and mostly nothing but it. Oberlin and Bard if you want small class sizes (though most highly selective universities have) and mainly undergraduates. Research IS conducted at LACs, though most LACs don’t do so at the same level as the top research universities, given their lower research funding and lack of graduate schools + associated faculty and graduate students.
You should post this in the Music Major forum- lots of great advice there, including a great thread at the top about different ways to study music in college and what each entails.
Does your son intend to study music as his only major (a bachelor of Music), or is he looking for a dual degree program with a BM and another academic degree? It matters a lot in terms of admissions.
If you want a dual degree you have to be accepted to the main school as well as the music school, and those are typically 5 year programs. Some music schools and individual profs are more willing than others to consider double degree students. The double degree students my son knows barely slept in college it was so demanding.
Peabody and Eastman, for example, have completely separate admissions from JHU/U of Rochester. They make admissions decisions on their own, primarily on the basis of auditions. My son was admitted to both (for music only, not double degree) a number of years ago. Though he is a good student his stats would not have been competitive for JHU or Rochester.
Michigan definitely has lower standards for the School of Music, Theater and Dance. If I recall, they had minimum stats posted on the SMTD web site at the time and they were not particularly high. I think they also had average admitted stats posted (which were higher). U of M admissions has to sign off on a student before he or she is offered an audition but once they do, I believe the decision is then in the hands of the SMTD and is primarily based on the audition. On the other hand, getting into the Music program at Michigan is extremely competitive.
I have heard anecdotally and from Northwestern admissions that Northwestern typically has higher academic standards - not as high as for non-music admissions but they are still looking for high course rigor and top 10% of the HS class, ideally.
The folks in the Music major forum are very helpful, and you can always call music admissions at some schools to ask if certain stats would be competitive. At top schools with good music programs they are used to that question.
Good luck!
Oberlin’s 5 year dual degree program might be worth investigating – students complete a Bachelor’s in music from the Conservatory and a Bachelor’s degree from the College. Admission to the Con would be highly competitive, audition-based, while admission to the College is traditional college admissions. Oberlin College admission rates are running in the mid 30% range, I think.
Lawrence University in Appleton, WI, is another school with both a Con and a traditional liberal arts college. Admission to Con is still competitive, admission to College is less selective than Oberlin.
Thanks! This is very helpful. Basically, my son thinks he wants to go to a conservatory, but we would prefer that he consider getting some kind of liberal arts education as well, though whether it’s at a small LAC or larger university really isn’t important to us. We are very familiar with what life is like for a jazz musician and unsure whether this would suit him, so we’d like him to have some other options as well. It’s great to have such a long list to go through, and we will definitely include places like Lawrence on our list.
Definitely look at Lawrence. Not sure if St. Olaf has good jazz, but that might be another one to check out. What are his grades? I have a first year studying clarinet at a LAC with a conservatory (does not have great jazz though) and a high school junior wanting to study percussion. Neither were stellar students and took music far more seriously than academics.
He probably has about a 92 GPA at a fairly rigorous school at the moment. He’s a hard worker but much, much more passionate about music than anything else right now and starting to have an “I want to play sax, why do I care how I do in math?” attitude.