<p>I'm not going to lie: when I decided to attend Penn State for engineering, my decision was cost-based. Simply put, it promised a solid education at a great price. But I couldn't help but wonder--what was I missing at the pricier, "liberal arts" schools? Society venerates skills like communication and a global perspective, which the liberal arts surely promote, but at what point do these vague ideals and cold hard cash intersect? </p>
<p>Let's say, for example, that you've been accepted into a small, prestigious liberal arts college for engineering, price tag 60K. Or you can have the state-school equivalent, also a good education, for less than half the price. Can you justify the extra cost? Thoughts on this issue in general? Just something I've been mulling over lately--I'd love to hear your opinions. (I posted this in the student section as well, and I'm interested to see whether parents have a different opinion.)</p>
<p>maidenMom - but that still leaves the question, “Which is the ‘best’ school?”</p>
<p>For engineering, in our area, I know that more value is placed on a degree from a state flagship than an ivy league education for new hires.</p>
<p>I’m just saying that you may get an unrivaled educational experience that it’s difficult to place a price tag on in an ivy or one of the “better” private schools - but when it comes to hiring time, it doesn’t automatically translate into a higher paying job for all fields, or even a job at all. A lot of it is regional and MOST of it depends on your field.</p>
<p>I can tell you for sure that we (my kids, really) were going to have to borrow money no matter where they attended. In other words, we didn’t have money just sitting there waiting for them. The question is, do they want to be repaying their loans for 10 years, or for the rest of their lives? I certainly could not justify the difference in cost between a state school and a private school if return on investment is the concern.</p>
<p>Fischerman, I’m sure Penn State has some wonderful study abroad programs, and their engineering department can probably hook you up with some international co-ops. </p>
<p>The company I work for brings co-ops in from all over the world for real world application. I really think you’ll be fine. Whatever skills you want to hone - take the initiative and hone them yourself. Look for avenues to improve yourself FOR yourself. </p>
<p>Locally, there’s a lady that came into our company that taught “Presentation Skills” - and it was not the typical Presentation Skills course. It lasted months and covered topics like stage fright, presence, professional dress, make-up (wherever applicable), feeling comfortable in your own skin, making a connection with the audience, etc…She also does private sessions. She’s expensive, but a lot cheaper than a private college! This is just an example. The point is, whatever extra and important skills you want to develop in yourself - YOU CAN DO IT! It just takes initiative, which is REALLY important for an engineer anyway! :)</p>
<p>The experience of a LAC can be really wonderful, but not at the price of years of hefty student loan repayments. Four great years vs. 10 years of economic misery is not a good tradeoff for anyone. </p>
<p>Penn State is a perfectly fine and respectable school.</p>
<p>It’s one of those things. Depends on financial circumstances to a large degree, as well as personality, how good the state school’s program is vs. the expensive private school’s, etc. Also depends on the state. Some state schools are not that inexpensive, others are a bargain. No one answer fits all. A lot of state schools have very fine engineering programs. If you are in a good program at a good state school, I don’t think you are missing anything much.</p>
<p>Personally, I couldn’t justify the additional cost. Our D was in a similar situation where she was accepted at a small prestigious college, but she chose to attend a state school instead. I am dead set against students graduating from college with huge amounts of debt that they will be saddled with for year and years to come.</p>
<p>I believe I received good communication skills and a global perspective during my undergrad engineering program at Ohio State by careful selection of non-tech electives. I took courses in social cybernetics, macro-economics, city/regional planning, Serbo-Croatian Lit(in translation), philosophy(ethics), 20th century art, medieval/Renaissance music, techincal writing, English composition, racial politics in America(taught by Gunnar Myrdal), Age of Reason(European History of the 18th Century). In addition, our senior year quarterly project courses(3) were team projects teaching team-work and presentation communication skills. In addition I regularly attended concerts, plays, public lectures, student recitals, and was an inner-city tutor for a 6th grade student in downtown Columbus.</p>
<p>In other words I took as much advantage of what OSU and the community offered a harried engineering student.</p>
<p>I’m a Penn State grad, my one son attended a small, highly ranked engineering college (Rose-Hulman), my other son graduated from a top 60 liberal arts college. My Penn State degree served me well. On the other hand, I wouldn’t hesitate to attend a top liberal arts college is I had it to do over again, AND could afford it. The last point is large: I don’t think it’s worth the price of going deeply into debt. Also, I wouldn’t consider a liberal arts college unless it was pretty selective. There are a lot of mediocre liberal arts colleges out there.</p>
<p>Frankly, you don’t have to attend a liberal arts college to get a broad education. A well-read person will be just fine.</p>
<p>There is a big difference in campus cultures between a large research university such a PSU and a relatively small college. Some people have a strong preference for one over the other. I’d probably be fine at either; however, the small campus might seem a bit too cozy the longer I were there. My wife (then girlfriend) transferred from a liberal arts college because she thought the small campus was a bit too much like high school.</p>
<p>Fischermom, I have fiends with three kids who felt very strongly that the state schools were just fine for anyone. They were highly successful state u grads, and felt that their state offered enough choices for any and every kind of student. Their oldest hit every note just right and graduated with honors from Flagship University, went on to law school, and is doing very well. The next one did not get into Flagship U which did cause some consternation since the other schools just did not have the name recognition, nor did they have the amenities that the name state schools did. He went to a less selective state school, did not do well enough to transfer to Flagship U as was the plan, but well enough to finish up in 6 years or so at a state school. That he graduated is a tribute to his tenacity, since I don’t think anyone would have bet he would. No one was particularly happy about his experiences there.</p>
<p>The third one was not one that was going to get into any of the Flagship U. Both parents, despite their strong feelings voiced so loudly and with authority over the years, came to the conclusion that their youngest would do much better in a small private LAC. So that’s where he went, and the parents did pay 3X what the public alternatives were in state, more if he had commuted. But he did well there, loved it there, grew up there, got some education, and then promptly went to graduate school for optometry, something he had no interest, knowledge or anything when he was 18 or even 21. He now does very well, and everyone is happy. Of the three kids, he is the most connected to his UG school with many of his best friends from there, goes back regularly, donates money and will unequivocally say that they were happiest years of his life. So, what can one say? Doesn’t always work that way, but when it does, it’s beautiful and can be worth every cent. For those who cannot afford to pay for this luxury, and a luxury this is, the public options are what the choices are. But if you have the money, and you can see that some private choices may be better for your kid, what better things are there than your child’s well being, happiness and education to spend one’s money?</p>
<p>This is a very interesting thread. I’m pretty sure there is no “answer” to the OP’s question, but certainly an important discussion. I think a lot really depends on the student and, of course, WHICH flagship engineering school and which LAC w/ engineering. For example, someone posted that their company prefers flagship engineers over Ivy League … yeah, I sort of doubt that, at least when hiring for long-term professional development. </p>
<p>Engineering is a very misunderstood profession. Most folks believe it pays very well - but look at the numbers for 10-25 years into careers and you’ll see that school teachers make more $$$ than engineers, especially if you include pensions and other benefits. However, individuals with engineering DEGREES that branch into management, entrepreneurship, CEO, COO, or the like certainly are often high earners. And the fact is, MANY of your IVY engineers spend very little time as “engineers”. The flagships tend to produce more “regular” engineers, but that’s very individual also.</p>
<p>I guess I’d look at a Penn State or the like and figure there’s an awful lot of course offerings available that you could certainly have a well-rounded education. You can also makes lots of pwerful contacts for the future… IF you are willing to get out of your comfort zone and go make those contacts! I think in a smaller school, LAC type, it is more “part of what they do” to be active outside your engineering sphere - but you CAn certainly do this in a large flagship as well.</p>
<p>You have really gotten some very prudent and real world responses, Fischerman. I particularly agree with others proposing that certain skills can be a self-determined or autonomous initiative. You mentioned a global perspective and communications. Have you also noted that many advocates of the Liberal Arts education proffer that it teaches critical thinking/reasoning? Who doesnt want to be a critical thinker? In fact, I was extremely intrigued with a 60 Minutes interview with David Kelley, founder of the Silicon Valley global design firm IDEO. He engages people with completely different backgrounds (business, journalism, aerospace engineering) to work together, generating design breakthroughs, problem-solving and envisioning what works best for the consumer. </p>
<p>That said, you questioned the clashing of vague ideals and cold hard cash. Not to sound negative or anti Steve Jobs, but I know some believe in the follow your passion tenet. You may have to ask yourself if the happiness derived from pursuing your passion is sufficient enough to enjoy your standard of living; or, the reality that when your parents say You need to find your own place youre okay with your options. If not, it can be a tough road.</p>
<p>Try to find time to enjoy the unique and exceptional opportunities available to you!</p>
<p>Ah, Poetgrl, unfortunately the money does come into the picture. I would so love, love, love to send my baby boy to the school that is the best fit, that he likes the most, that has the best name recognition, but money will play a role in the choice. Yeah, I do shop at the Dollar Shop even though my family income says I can do better. </p>
<p>It is a luxury to be able to take a lot of these things into account. Is it worth it to send a kid to say Bucknelll for engineering because you look at it and it’s really a lot more suited for him than a big university? If you have the money, you can deliberate. If you don’t even the state flagship many not be affordable, and the smartest thing to do is look for local programs Yeah, IF the kid gets his engineering degree and IF that field remains ripe for new hires and pays well, it COULD be affordable. If ya gotta think like that, you can’t afford it. Look at the numbers of those who switch from engineering to political science. Pretty clear you can’t count on it. </p>
<p>But if you have the money, and you can and want to spend it on your kids, it’s a really nice gift to give them, their choice in colleges, a college more suited to them even if it costs more.</p>
<p>Everyone–Thank you so much for the responses. You’ve certainly given me a lot to think about. Just a few things I noticed in particular:</p>
<p>Cromette: Really interesting ideas. I guess I was just wondering, in particular, why you don’t see a pricier school as guaranteeing–or improving–job outlook. Is this just a trend you noticed, or is there quantitative information?</p>
<p>NJSue: I agree completely. How do you think that some people who choose the pricier option rationalize this dilemma?</p>
<p>mstee: Am I understanding correctly that you are of the opinion that state schools and liberal arts schools, getting down to brass tacks, are comparable in terms of an educational experience?</p>
<p>originaloog: Very cool! So do you think that “liberal arts” schools are an illusion? Can you find these classes and get the same experience at a state school, if you take the initiative?</p>
<p>gcornelius: “Frankly, you don’t have to attend a liberal arts college to get a broad education. A well-read person will be just fine.” Very interesting. So do you see any redeeming qualities in a liberal arts “education” vs. taking the initiative and reading lots of books by yourself?</p>
<p>poetgrl: Haha, maybe we should! If I’m detecting your sarcasm correctly, why do you feel this way?</p>
<p>Pilot: Nice summary of my position. Where do you stand on the “passion vs. economic security” issue?
cptofthehouse: " But if you have the money, and you can see that some private choices may be better for your kid, what better things are there than your child’s well being, happiness and education to spend one’s money? " What a profound statement. So you believe, if the money is there, that an education that fosters happiness and contentment should be the top priority?</p>
<p>If you live in a state that has a public “LAC” in its system, you can come pretty close to having your cake and eating it. Take a look in the Fiske Guide (or something similar) at places like New College, William & Mary, Minnesota-Morris, and those the guides suggest as peer institutions. Having the option of a smaller-campus, smaller-classes experience at in-state prices is a good one. The better developed honors college programs at some of the flagships also will get you most of the way there.</p>
<p>For me and mine? Yes. Sure. The money is there, it’s been saved for years, and I can’t think of a better way in which to spend it. For you and yours? That’s your business and your prerogative, not mine. Your question almost sounds as though you’re challenging the idea that anyone should spend a lot of money on education when there are cheaper options.</p>
<p>I just found three threads basically on this same topic when I opened the board, and I read yours last and posted on yours. That’s all.</p>
<p>Look, I’m not going to tell anybody how to spend their money, and I certainly believe it is valuable to weigh all of the circumstances when choosing a college or a university. And, given the accreditation situation with engineering, it is less important where a kid gets that degree. It will be a good degree.</p>
<p>Engineering is one of our vocational schools.</p>
<p>But, I’m weary of the tech vs. liberal arts argument. Both have value.</p>
<p>And, yes, finances should be taken into account. Absolutely. But this does not make a liberal arts degree worthless.</p>
<p>Too much black and white thinking in these endless threads.</p>
<p>But, I’m not probably only talking about your thread, just a general trend on the site.</p>
<p>Expensive is not necessarily always better. Penn state has a good engineering reputation, and it offers many other major too. It might not be a good fit for a student wanting a small and/or urban campus… but it certainly offers a lot of bang for the buck for in-staters.</p>