Liberty time reduced, study time going up at U.S. Naval Academy

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
101

<p>juliemrn...the question is not about starving. its about being healthy and athletic. during plebe summer i put on more than 10 lbs of muscle and now its being dwindled away as i sit at the table and look at empty plates after having one piece of chicken or some tuna salad.</p>

<p>I have already lost 2.5 lbs in the first week of this year. Why? I'm hungry ALL the time. Everyone I talk to is hungry all the time. You may say, hey just go eat at drydock or steerage. Unfortunately these are closed during the week, thus leaving the mid store as the only option aside from King Hall (and a $16 pizza from DTA). The mid store has great snacks but nothing suitable for a full meal.</p>

<p>Furthermore, with mandatory meal formations, many people are not getting the time they need to work out. The pools and weight rooms are too crowded to use because everyone is forced to work out at the same time. </p>

<p>Every mid here agrees that something needs to change.</p>

<p>On the subject of ECA's; and I quote, "The mission of the United States Naval Academy is to develop midshipmen morally, mentally, and physically..." These ECA's and other programs contribute to that moral, mental, and physical development. We're not out to become killing machines. We are training to become warriors; well rounded leaders capable of taking lives and saving lives. </p>

<p>"It is by no means enough that an officer of the Navy should be a capable mariner. He must be that of course but also a great deal more. He should be a gentleman of liberal education, refined manners, punctilious courtesy and the nicest sense of personal honor." - John Paul Jones</p>

102

<p>I really am with you my friend. I'm one of the "meddling" moms sending additional food packages. There is simply no excuse for Mids to be going hungry and even less excuse for them not to be able to solve that problem themselves by going to Dahlgren or Steerage. As a nurse and the mother of two boys, I know that the Mids must be going through calories like crazy, all day, every day. My Mid typically eats every 2 hours when he's at home and he's a string-bean. </p>

<p>ECA's - I'm with ProfMom - Why does the Admissions process give such weight to a well-rounded candidate if the leadership is going to tell them to check it at the door? Doesn't make any sense. Isn't there room for both? </p>

<p>Vets waiting for basic health services. This is a travesty, but this comes out of the VA budget - not the USNA, WP or AFA budgets. Apples and oranges.</p>

103

<p>Sounds more like sour grapes on the D&B Corps. Been to many a football game and never ever saw that happen. Never heard my youngster ever make a negative comment about those in the D&B, or the Glee Club, or the Crew Team, or the Basketball Team, ... you get the picture. </p>

<p>In good fun, the Mids all dump on anyone who gets out of company duties - goes with the territory, at the end of the day they are supporting the brigade and working just as hard as everyone else.</p>

<p>
[quote]
He should be a gentleman of liberal education, refined manners, punctilious courtesy and the nicest sense of personal honor." - John Paul Jones

[/quote]
Great quote!</p>

<p>A liberal education in the true sense is one educated in the seven liberal arts:grammar, rhetoric, and logic (the trivium) and geometry, arithmetic, music, and astronomy (the quadrivium).
In modern colleges and universities, the liberal arts include the study of theology, literature, languages, philosophy, history, mathematics, and science. " Wikipedia </p>

<p>Next thing the Supe will want to change the mission statement...</p>

104

<p>"Next thing the Supe will want to change the mission statement..."</p>

<p>Hubby says if you read what he says in the papers he already has changed the mission in his mind.</p>

105

<p>GoNavy2011,</p>

<p>If you are going to make that claim about D&B, it then applies to varsity sports, as well (and it probably applies more to just sports and D&B). They get out of a lot of things and the weight falls onto other squadmates, roommates, etc. </p>

<p>Don't you (not 2011, but in general) think it is kind of ironic how USAFA and USMA can manage to have sports, ECAs, etc. and it isn't a problem for them?</p>

<p>How come other SA's aren't having these problems?</p>

106

<p>


</p>

<p>Great quote!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It would probably behoove the mids (and their parents) to take this to heart, especially the last part of it:</p>

<p>
[quote]
He should be the soul of tact, patience, .................................. he should be quick and unfailing to distinguish error from malice, thoughtfulness from incompetency, and well meant shortcomings from heedless or stupid blunder.

[/Quote]
</p>

<p>And if you will note from Reef Points, the "quote" was actually fabricated by Augustus C. Buell, a biographer who made up most of the "facts" in his biographies. It would, therefore, probably be a good idea to remove it from Naval lore.</p>

107

<p>OK, here are a few answers:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>I can't speak for my plebe son, ProfMom. I know what he's written in letters to me - he has set five very specific goals for the next four years at USNA, and what he plans to achieve before May 2011. </p></li>
<li><p>Why on earth would I have "sour grapes about D&B"? My plebe didn't try out for it, has zero, zip, no interest in it. I simply reported on a conversation I had with him over PPW. Ask your mids if there is a reputation of chit-surfing and slacking attached to the D&B corps, and subsequent resentment among the Brigade. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Re: D&B commitments versus athletics - Division I athletes have strict seasons and practice schedules, unlike the year-round D&B appearances. While they are no doubt absent from company duties, there is a definite end to their seasons. </p>

<p>And, to be completely honest, I don't think a mid would dump a Diet Coke over the head of a 245-pound Navy linebacker or a 6'6" basketball forward ... but a 145-lb trumpet player may be fair game.</p>

108

<p>USNA69 thanks for the correction. I would also like to note that, according to Reef Points, it was written by Buell about Jones.</p>

109

<p>
[quote]
He should be the soul of tact, patience, .................................. he should be quick and unfailing to distinguish error from malice, thoughtfulness from incompetency, and well meant shortcomings from heedless or stupid blunder.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>USNA69-
You are right, with the exception that you've got the finger pointed in the wrong direction.</p>

<p>But I am having a hard time distinguishing between thoughtfulness and incompetency based on the experiences of the last week-plus. Well meant shortcommings implies planning took place as part of the action plan. But I think I got the "quick and unfailing," "heedless" and "stupid blunder" part down pat. Oh, a rose by any other name...........</p>

<p>but you know what-
I am willing to give it a shot.
One week.
not one more word re: changes, food, ECAs, etc.
Will let the dust settle where it will.
10:33 pm... 8/27/07.
Clock starts now.
One week.
Even if it kills me.</p>

110

<p>
[quote]
It would, therefore, probably be a good idea to remove it from Naval lore.

[/quote]
Sounds good...keeps it in line with everything else being removed. Who needs any lore anyway...</p>

<p>
[quote]
I have "sour grapes about D&B"?

[/quote]
not speaking about you ... your plebe said "a 1/c said" was referring to those who may have said the comment.</p>

<p>So in you book it is ok to be a varsity athlete but to represent the Academy in any other way is no good. - How is being a varsity athlete in keeping with needs of the fleet? </p>

<p>Sanctioned practice times: What about the distance runners - XC fall, Indoor Track - winter - Outdoor track - Spring This sport is pretty much all year long (Or is running not sport enough for you to consider since most would fall into the 145 lb range) Which having been a NCAA athlete back in the day we too had very stick rules on season and practice. Didn't prohibit us from practicing all year long - just didn't have a sanctioned coach present but had every trainer and other personnel around all of the time. Don't tell me it is not done now days ...Know to many NCAA swimmers, Runners and soccer players. </p>

<p>Want military school - keep to military training. Want to play the tuba (broke my own rule) try Northwestern's school of Music, want to be a Math Major try Princeton or Stanford, What to be an Athlete try anywhere in the SEC, ACC, PAC 10, Big 10, Big 12... Lets not waste our Tax dollar on Athletes. </p>

<p>Really to be honest I don't think they would dump a coke over either - after all they are all shipmates. But if you think it would happen I certainly hope your Mid doesn't think it or act. Really find it more strange that any 1/c would have said that to a plebe...</p>

<p>Glad your Mid has goals - hope he can change them when the rug is pulled out from under his feet.</p>

111

<p>
[QUOTE]

Re: D&B commitments versus athletics - Division I athletes have strict seasons and practice schedules, unlike the year-round D&B appearances. While they are no doubt absent from company duties, there is a definite end to their seasons.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Incorrect. First of all, I wouldn't expect anyone to throw food at anyone.
I can start naming sports that, while they aren't in championship season, aren't around due to practices for practically the whole year.</p>

<p>Lacrosse, Football, Track/Cross-Country, Basketball...practically all sports (I could keep going). I live here, I hardly see varsity athletes except at nights and rarely on weekends. I know how often varsity athletes are in and out of Bancroft Hall. While you might think that football is only played in the fall, it is really a year-round sports, except for 1/C in the spring. Same thing applies with a lot of other sports.</p>

<p>I am not saying that there doesn't deserve to be varsity athletics.</p>

112

<p>Well, I think that the Navy is going to value the skill set that a varsity athlete possesses more than a trumpeteer or a Glee club guy, especially in the years ahead. </p>

<p>As to the dumping-crap-on-the-heads-of-Drum-and-Bugle story, it sounds right to me, and the 1/C who warned my plebe about sitting too close to the D&B section did so after some pretty egregious chit-surfing in his company. I remember the behavior and appearance of our high school and college's musicians - let's just say that they wouldn't have been my first choices in a combat situation (with apologies to the late Glenn Miller).</p>

<p>I am dismayed at the 'helicopter parents' I am reading here and elsewhere. Hovering, worrying, complaining... face it, your sons and daughters are adults. They are attending a military academy. Said military academy is located in a country that is at war. </p>

<p>One hundred fifty thousand American troops are risking their lives in Iraq and Baghdad and you're complaining about judo club and lost three-day Glee Club retreats in Pennsylvania? You're telling your mids to do "five and dive... then grad school"? </p>

<p>Yeesh.</p>

113

<p>jadler- just as a point of information only-</p>

<p>D1 sports implies the highest level of competetion.
In turn, to remain competetive, they require year round training.
Out of season conditioning, weight training, skill development.
Individual and team development.
Most compete in the off -season, usually as scrimmages.
There are exceptions to that....crew, for example- has 2 seasons. Fall rowing, or "head racing," and the traditional all-come-down-the-river-at-the-same-time spring racing format, their "official" season. Summer and winter erging, running, weight training, conditioning- all a must in order to compete at the D1 level when it counts.</p>

<p>Ditto for lacrosse and soccer.
Track- another one that spans several seasons.... fall and winter...XC and sprints...then add in all the spring "field" stuff.
Don't know too much about football, but would venture to say it's the same.</p>

<p>Our daughter competeted at the D1 level throughout her collegiate career. Up rowing at 0530 for practices. March through November. Weight training 5 days a week. Aerobics 6 days. Erging every day when not on the water. In-season second on-water practices. Spring and Fall D1 competetion. Summer club rowing. Winter indoor rowing ("erging") and the CRASH-B's competetion up in Boston. All to stay conditioned for those regattas in the fall and spring. But that is what it takes to compete at that level.</p>

<p>She used to call it her "other full time job." Thankfully, she remembered to keep academics as her primary one.</p>

<p>Navy D&B aside, I would venture to say playing an instrument is along the same lines......you have to keep at it to say good... and more importantly, to get better.</p>

114

<p>
[quote]
You're telling your mids to do "five and dive... then grad school"?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>gonavy2011- did someone say that? Don't recall anyone even suggesting such a thing....
there is not a one of us that can vouch for what our mids will be doing after their 5 year committments. Most of them don't even know.</p>

<p>And you are right- thousands of troops risking their lives all over the world right now. Our mids will be joining them in short order. Right now they are students....students of the Navy I grant you, but students nevertheless. They will have their time facing that challenge soon enough.</p>

115

<p>Yes USNA69 we have told him that to look for the long hall, keep your grades up (right now that would be a perfect 4.0, with an OOM in the single digits), five and dive and go to grad school. The Navy will loose an incredible young man no matter how you look at this.</p>

<p>The above is from a post in this thread, by NativeTexan. 08/18/07.</p>

<p>I didn't bother to correct the spelling and grammar.</p>

<p>NativeTexan, BTW, if you're interested, is a member of The President's Club, and will no longer be fulfilling the signed donation contract he/she signed for the USNA. I guess that honoring commitments is in your DNA, eh?</p>

116

<p>
[quote]
Well, I think that the Navy is going to value the skill set that a varsity athlete possesses more than a trumpeteer or a Glee club guy, especially in the years ahead.

[/quote]
And that skill set is? When was the last time there was a football game aboard ship? </p>

<p>Telling me that my cousin who served 20 years in the Navy as an enlisted TRUMPETER, in the numerous Navy Bands, did not serve his country well but had he been an athlete he would have? He had no purpose in entertaining troops in Vietnam, playing at the White House, playing all over the world (but Glenn Miller did)</p>

<p>
[quote]
I remember the behavior and appearance of our high school and college's musicians

[/quote]
Seems to me that you really have a dislike for musicians... And the behavior of Varsity Athletes (can I say Michael Vick?)</p>

<p>So while mine wears his athletic hat is a "great looking guy, worthy of being in the Navy" but while he is the principal percussionist - in the Midshipman Orchestra (not D&B) - he doesn't have a chance of possessing the skill set needed for the Navy? Have you seen the Glee Clubs, the Orchestra, the D&B, could you pick them out of the Brigade on their appearance? Please describe your stereotype Midshipman D&B or Glee Club member to me.</p>

<p>How many Varsity athletes do you know who are given a budget to manage, a conference to plan, other Mids to coordinate/ supervise? Normal for those in ECA's. But the Athletes have Coaches for that.</p>

<p>I do not have any intention on dumping on the varsity athletes - know many. They are all great Mids doing the same thing that the Club athletes do(did) and the non-athletes did. Lets face it they all pass the same PRT, they all take the same classes and at the end of the day they are all Midshipmen. To come here and slam one section the the Brigade is uncalled for. Yes, we all have our favorites probably based on what our Mids participate in, but in the end we all support all of these young adults - be them Athletes, Scholars, Musicians, Singers, Orators, Volunteers... To do otherwise would be a disservice to the Brigade of Midshipmen.</p>

117

<p>
[quote]
..... five and dive and go to grad school. The Navy will loose an incredible young man no matter how you look at this.....The above is from a post in this thread, by XXX 08/18/07.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>GoNAVY2011... I stand corrected.
Do not mistake, however, that a comment made by one is applicable to all.</p>

<p>Again, none of us...not parents, not mids....have the luxury of a crystal ball. 5 years added onto however many years left at USNA is a long way away....and too far to know where any one of us will be or what life has in store no matter how "pure" the intent or focused the goal.</p>

<p>
[quote]

I am dismayed at the 'helicopter parents' I am reading here and elsewhere. Hovering, worrying, complaining... face it, your sons and daughters are adults. They are attending a military academy. Said military academy is located in a country that is at war.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>sorry the parents on this site are causing you such angst. You have been here for 7 posts now. I suggest getting to know your audience a bit better before afixing a label on them....certainly more than 7 posts worth.</p>

<p>No one is moving to annapolis to "hover."
Parents do worry. Some more than others.
We do not need to be reminded that our Mids are adults.
And I am reminded that some are younger than others.
And they are fast becoming wiser than their years.
We do not need to be reminded that they are attending a military academy.
We are acutely aware.
Just as we are acutely aware of where this road leads.
Nor do we need to be chastised for our parenting skills. We are just as proud of our Mids as you are of yours.
And we are all one step away from "by the grace of God..."</p>

<p>So do exercise a little patience with those that come here to post.
Some want information, some are able to give it, some just need to vent.
Some want just to play and mess with our heads. (confused.... now where did he go...??)
And some want nothing but to stir the pot.
I assure you, it needs no stirring right now.</p>

<p>But that is the nature of the beast.
And everyone is welcome. Well, some will say "most" are welcome.
I hold there is room for all.
Even the parents that may be struggling a bit more with the "wings."
And what you hear as complaining I hear as genuine concern.
But that is my opinion.<br>
And you are welcome to yours.
Try and keep it respectful.</p>

118

<p>And, since you have pointed out that I have seven posts (eight now) on this forum...</p>

<p>... I will in turn point out that you have two thousand one hundred and seventy one. </p>

<p>Wow. No comment.</p>

<p>My 'angst' (your term, not mine- I would use "exasperation" to describe my feelings now) is directed at the parents who I feel are harming the USNA's mission and plebe morale. I don't think it is well and good to be online with every small complaint and grudge against the USNA admin. </p>

<p>Based on what I know about the military and the Internet, a public forum is a poor choice to air grievances, especially if you are going to practically identify your midshipman - as some posters recently have.</p>

119

<p>USNA2010 is correct - not a single parent of a Midshipmen knows 100% what their Mid will do once their commitment is fulfilled. The last time I checked that commitment was 5 years (8 after flight school) </p>

<p>My son's B&GO "five and dived" - actually presented that as an option at the interview. Come to think of it, most of the Academy grads that we know, mostly graduates from the 80's, all "five and dived" (some 4 and dived back in the day) so this is not a "new" development. So I am a responsible parent and discussed options with my young adult - So now you imply that the discussion and advice was wrong. I do not parent by blowing smoke up his ... When he is ragging on USNA I will agree, when he is thrilled to be there I will agree. He must be given the chance to come to his own conclusions. Blowing smoke will not give him the opportunity to vent and then slowly come to his own conclusions once the venting settles. Shoot me for suggesting "five and dive and go to grad school," shoot me for presenting valid option. Everyone parents differently. He made a commitment to 4 years by the bay and followed by a legal commitment to serve the terms of his duty selection. Nothing more, nothing less. </p>

<p>I speak with my money as that is the only voice that USNA, through the Foundation, gives a parent and really an Alumni. I am not alone, many Alumni that I have spoken to have also pulled support until change is made. The gentleman, at the Foundation that I spoke to, understood. We had a long conversation, he told me they too are concerned and hoped we would reconsider once things settle down. (BTW a pledge is not a signed contract...there was no signed contract, there is no breach of contract. And no promises were made to USNA. The Foundation is not USNA.)</p>

<p>
[quote]
I didn't bother to correct the spelling and grammar.

[/quote]

Correct my spelling, grammar or what ever you like - don't really care.</p>

120

<p>I think many of you are putting the cart before the horse here… Everybody likes to pull out that JPJ quote and go on about what a Naval Officer should be.. “…a gentleman of liberal education, refined manners, punctilious courtesy, and the nicest sense of personal honor. He should know how to dance, play the violin, bagpipes and tuba, be an expert in home repair, be able to cook Thirty-Minute Brownies in twenty minutes and conduct the New York Philharmonic.. He should be the soul of tact, patience, justice, firmness, kindness, blah, blah, blah...etc. etc. etc... But FIRST and FOREMOST “..an officer of the navy should be a CAPABLE MARINER...” All the rest of that stuff, while it may be important to some degree, is secondary. IMOFWIW </p>

<p>I did a couple of YP cruises as a reservist in the early nineties.. I was AMAZED at the lack of seamanship and navigation skills displayed not only by the first class Mids but ALSO by the two assigned Lieutenant faculty officers from the school’s SEA/NAV department. Even the enlisted craftmaster I thought left much to be desired when it came to fundamental seamanship skills.. This was over ten years ago, so things hopefully may have changed for the better and the Academy is emphasizing those disciplines more now. Are they? Look, I don’t think those guys knew enough to even be embarrassed at their lack of knowledge. The other thing that I took away from the whole experience was the utter lack of desire of the Mids to be on the boats.. I had 3 firsties on my boat.. Two were aviator “wantabe’s” and one wanted to go into subs. They couldn’t get off that YP any quicker had I lit a fire under their butts and “greased the gangway”.. maybe a little of their haste was due to the fact that the YP’s were real “vomit comets”… lots of sick Mids on those cruises.. But none the less…</p>

<p>The sea cares little about “liberal education, refined manners, punctilious courtesy, and the nicest sense of personal honor or whether you’re the “soul of tact, patience, justice, firmness, kindness...” as Herman Melville said in Moby Dick "When beholding the tranquil beauty and brilliancy of the ocean's skin, one forgets the tiger heart that pants beneath it; and would not willingly remember, that this velvet paw but conceals a remorseless fang". </p>

<p>anyway just my observations..</p>