<p>GoNavy2011
I think you need to spend some time with a wider variety of Mids. You seem to have a narrow view of who is more important to the Naval Academy. Come spend some time with my Mids and tell my Glee Club Mid, my Pipes Mid (I bet you haven't even seen Navy's Pipes and Drums yet!), or even my Judo Mid, to their face that their ECA is not as important as your Mids. You seem to feel that the Varsity Athletes are better equipped to be in the fleet. As the wife of a still active duty grad, a Mom of a Mid, and a sponsor Mom to whats seems like an entire company this year, we have had the honor of having Mids from all parts of the Academy in our home. When you sign up to be a sponsor you don't always get what you ask for but you take what you get. Wierd ECA's and all. I have attended things to support my sponsor Mids that I didn't even know the Academy used to have. I am sure those are gone by now. I must tell you that they are all fully qualified to be in the fleet. They ALL struggle with some part of the requirements. But I would like to tell you that this summer we had a few anxious days with our football player. His Dad is a Grad that didn't want him to come here. His Mom died halfway through NAPS, so he is very dear to us. This summer he was struggling to pass the run part of the PRT we had several worried phone calls. If he didn't pass the run by Sunday he couldn't report to camp. Well is was the ECA Mid that stepped up to the plate and volunteered to "pace" him. He didn't need to run it again he had passed easily. But he wanted to help his shipmate and shaved 20 seconds off his run. I was never so happy to see a smile back on his face at the media day. Do I think my Mid shouldn't be in the fleet because he struggled with the run? No because he was well under the fleet required time. Both the football player and his ECA shipmate will both be excellent Naval Officers. Maybe you need to get a little time in the yard under your belt before you start telling us what Mids are more valuable to the fleet.</p>
<p>Naptown, no problem. If I had the chance to explain to your Pipes and Drums mid, here's what I would say to his or her face:</p>
<p>"Midshipman, your ECA - Pipes and Drums - is being cut as of today. Our country is at war, and has been in this state for over four years now. A decision has been made by your superior officers that the Naval Academy is going to focus heavily on its primary mission: to educate future Naval officers in the art of war. To that end, and with that goal in mind, I strongly urge you to refocus your extracurricular activity toward one more suited to a military academy."</p>
<p>Done.</p>
<p>
[quote]
focus heavily on its primary mission: to educate future Naval officers in the art of war. GoNavy2011
[/quote]
Where in the mission of the United States Naval Academy does it ever refer to educating Midshipmen in the Art of War.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Mission
The Naval Academy has a unique clarity of purpose, expressed in our mission: “To develop midshipmen morally, mentally and physically and to imbue them with the highest ideals of duty, honor and loyalty in order to provide graduates who are dedicated to a career of naval service and have potential for future development in mind and character to
assume the highest responsibilities of command, citizenship and government.” USNA Catalog
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
Our mission forms the basis for everything we do at the Academy. It also encourages a sense of spirit and pride found at few other schools. USNA Catalog
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
I strongly urge you to refocus your extracurricular activity toward one more suited to a military academy." GoNavy2011
[/quote]
And in your opinion what is more suited towards a Military Academy? Have you looked at USMA and all they have to offer? </p>
<p>
[quote]
<a href="http://www.usma.edu/uscc/dca/clubs/clubshome.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.usma.edu/uscc/dca/clubs/clubshome.html</a> </p>
<p>One example: The Cadet Hop Bands are established to promote interest in popular music, to provide facilities and equipment to interested cadets and to provide music for cadet functions. Bands within the club perform for USMA, as well as outside the academy. Trip sections this year include performances in local restaurants and colleges in the northeast.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Want to tell West Point that in your opinion they are not doing it right either. </p>
<p>Personally I hope our Midshipmen, through professional and leadership training, are taught the Art of Not going to war. Or at least how to avoid a colossal political mess.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I think you have it bassackwards. Are you saying that we can win over the enemy with our tuba tooting? Politicans declare war. The military fights them. Yes, it's a big bad world out there, the military's sole job is to train for, and win, wars. To avoid your "colossal political mess", talk to your Representative; to win it, support your military. A strong military, trained and ready for war, will also deter wars, which is, in fact, winning them before they start.</p>
<p>navy2010,</p>
<p>I am not disputing the claim that they have to train year round. I know that from personal experience. I am just saying, you can't make the claim that since D&B are gone all the time that the same doesn't apply to varsity sports. Varsity sports should take precdence over ECA's (I am not denying that). So when one roommate gets "screwed" over by a varsity athlete and another by a D&Ber, the consequences that the roommate incurr are equivalent.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Then they made a mistake by choosing Annapolis over Kings Point. ;)</p>
<p>Yes talk/write to your politicians; Congressmen and senators, write letters to the editors, voice your opinion - and VOTE! That is what makes America. Our founding fathers would expect this out of every citizen. Don't really care what your political views are, I do however care that even you are afforded the opportunity/ability to voice those opinions.</p>
<p>Your implication that I do not support our military is an insult.
You may think that by being vocal I am not supporting him, the Institution or the Military. It is my duty to be vocal because I want these young adults, a generation very different from you Sir, to get the best leadership training possible and in the views of many the Academy has just mucked this up.</p>
<p>So right now I have a problem with the lack of leadership, lack of leadership training, lack of accountability to the Midshipmen, lack of food, over the top micromanagement by the leadership at the Academy. If you start reading the letters to the editor in many newspapers you will find many of your fellow USNA alumni also have a problem with this "new" direction.</p>
<p>Question for GoNavy2011: How does etiquette training, dance classes, mandatory Plebe Dances that your Plebe will have to partake in, fit with your definition of being trained to go to War? Will you attend your local All Academy Ball with your Mid - seems that as We are at War that is a frivolous activity and gets in the way of the mission.</p>
<p>By removing all culture we are certainly not training Gentlemen and Women but only savage warriors.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think you have it bassackwards. Are you saying that we can win over the enemy with our tuba tooting? Politicans declare war. The military fights them. Yes, it's a big bad world out there, the military's sole job is to train for, and win, wars. To avoid your "colossal political mess", talk to your Representative; to win it, support your military. A strong military, trained and ready for war, will also deter wars, which is, in fact, winning them before they start.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Stop making sense, Brother. You'll confuse them.</p>
<p>Well, this has veered far beyond where it was when I was asked to comment, so I'll give the thumbnails and step out.</p>
<ul>
<li><p>The food situation is inexcusable and can be pinned on more than just the Supe. I hope the upcoming changes will correct the issues. Time will tell.</p></li>
<li><p>"Loss" of ECA's should not be getting the response I'm hearing here. Yes, there will be disappointments, but nowhere is it written that a Mid has a right to have an ECA he likes. How those that survive are chosen will be up to the Administration, and will not please everyone. That's life. Deal with it.</p></li>
<li><p>"Loss" of liberty may be disappointing, but what they are getting now is no different than what many prior classes got, if not MORE than they got, and they survived just fine.</p></li>
<li><p>Study time is a good thing.</p></li>
<li><p>Parents have every right to worry about their kids, but should temper that concern with the understanding that there are bigger things involved here than just their feelings. Complaining to newspapers is a double-edged sword.</p></li>
<li><p>Banning "Beat Army!" and unit passes is (and I'm being polite here) just silly.</p></li>
<li><p>Patience is a virtue, especially in the military. Practice it.</p></li>
</ul>
<p>That's it. God bless everyone and.....</p>
<p>BEAT ARMY!! :D</p>
<p>Dance training must still be important in the Fleet! I thought it was interesting that one of my Mids was ordered by the CO of the ship he was going to do his summer cruise on to take 2 mando dance cloasses and bring his SDB's as they were going to have to attend a dance with the Australian Navy and he the CO "Didn't want to be embarrassee by the Mids if they didn't know how to dance" Amazing how the Naval Academy responded immediatly to this CO's request. They had 2 Sunday Mando classes before he left on his summer cruise. If I remember correctly we were
"A Nation at War" last summer.</p>
<p>I'm seeing two fallacious arguments on the part of the "complainers":</p>
<ol>
<li>"Well, if they're going to take away this ECA or that Liberty, why don't they just take them all away and feed the mids MREs?</li>
</ol>
<p>Example:
[quote]
Will you attend your local All Academy Ball with your Mid - seems that as We are at War that is a frivolous activity and gets in the way of the mission.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It's not a case of "if a little bit is good, then a lot is better". Some changes were needed, some changes were made. Get used to it.</p>
<ol>
<li> "It was always done this way before, why change now?"</li>
</ol>
<p>Example:
[quote]
If I remember correctly we were "A Nation at War" last summer.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Again, The Superintendant & Commandant of USNA, supported by their advisors, have decided that SOME changes were in order - It isn't our place to question them (provided thay are lawful orders). Now that concept may be foreign to many of you non-military types, but that's just the way it is. Orders go DOWN the chain of command - not UP!</p>
<p>Without going back to all the previous posts & quoting for examples, I wanted to address some of the mids' concerns about "being allwed to make decisions in order to learn leadership". For that to happen, the "powers that be" have to be reasonably sure that good decisions would be made. Unfortuantely, USNA has had a couple of public black eyes over the last year or so. Conduct Unbecoming an Officer at the very least. Another military concept - the consequences of the actions of a few are felt by many, perhaps a whole unit. If you want to say that the current mids are getting the shaft, and suffering the consequences of other's actions, well that's what happens in the military - "I've got to think about how my actions will affect others". Some mids might not have "gotten" that concept previously - maybe now they all will.</p>
<p>NT wrote:
[quote]
It is my duty to be vocal because I want these young adults, a generation very different from you Sir, to get the best leadership training possible...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Leadership for what? It is a NAVAL academy - they are there to learn to be NAVAL officers. </p>
<p>
[quote]
By removing all culture we are certainly not training Gentlemen and Women but only savage warriors.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>More hyperbole, but I hardly think that is the case - Bull majors at an all time high? Guess we DO need a little less "Athens" and a little more "Sparta".</p>
<p>
[quote]
Have you looked at USMA and all they have to offer?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yeah, Army/ AF always had the nicer bases too - boo hoo.</p>
<p>Look, the military life isn't all "gum drops & lollipops". We must have fierce Fighting men & women at the helm. IMMEDIATELY upon graduation/commissioning, the former midshipmen will be asked to make SACRIFICES & TOUGH DECISIONS. Making up your mind about whether to go to the Halloween Concert or not doesn't compare. Time to get real.</p>
<p>Reality Check: Military Life is about duty & sacrifice - that's why it's called the "SERVICE". </p>
<p>Finally, if you have made a "pledge" to USNAAA (or other group), and choose not to follow thru, then I guess it's good we don't have you teaching the "Honor Concept".</p>
<p>
[quote]
[quote]
... I will in turn point out that you have two thousand one hundred and seventy one. </p>
<p>Wow. No comment.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>no comment necessary.
I am in good company with many others who "have me beat."
Mind you- I have been on here for well over 2 1/2 years now. It has been a long journey, and I still have a way to go. I have been the receipient of some really terrific advice- from parents, alumni,BGO's, the USNA admissions poster, and mids alike. Even from parents at other academies. And I have learned and benefited far more than I've contributed....obviously so much so that I choose to stick around. And I have had the absolute pleasure of meeting a bunch of them up close and in person, several that I have broken bread with, and a few that I have, and some I would love, to share a glass of merlot with (as soon as USNA69 makes good! ;) )</p>
<p>In turn, I have tried to share the experience as seen through this parents eyes. Twice. And once each at 2 other academies. And like most, at several other civilian schools. </p>
<p>And there are options. You are at liberty to delete, pass over, even block those posters you would rather not see. </p>
<p>I hold that those that come here....the moms, the mids, the BGOs, the alumni and alumni+bgo's, et al- do so for one purpose- to share information from their perspective. We all see things differently.</p>
<p>
[quote]
My 'angst' (your term, not mine- I would use "exasperation" to describe my feelings now) is directed at the parents who I feel are harming the USNA's mission and plebe morale. I don't think it is well and good to be online with every small complaint and grudge against the USNA admin.
[/quote]
and on that we may have to disagree. I am not sure it is the parents who are harming anything. We are equally as "exasperated" as you, for many reasons. And what may appear as small complaints and grudges to you may look very different from where each of us is standing.</p>
<p>What you will come to realize is that no two academy experiences are identical. While united as a brigade, each battalion brings with it it's own flavor, its own experience. Add to that the experiences of each platoon, each company, and each squad. Factor in the "other" experiences....varisty, intramural, club, activities....coaches and leaders who all influence one's experience. All matter, and all are unique. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Based on what I know about the military and the Internet, a public forum is a poor choice to air grievances, especially if you are going to practically identify your midshipman - as some posters recently have.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>agreed. And even guilty as charged for the first. And i pray that I have not compromised by Mid, or anyone else for that matter, in any way.<br>
And like you, I value the academy from the bottom of my Blue and Gold Heart, and I wish no harm befall it. We have already gone through a year with far too many headlines. We certainly don't need more- and there are people at the helm with the power to stem any more of those if they see fit to do so, IMHO. </p>
<p>But I am on a self-imposed "time out" for further comments re: changes. I am praying the dust settles and that we can all move on and support our Mids as best we can.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Naptown, no problem. If I had the chance to explain.....
[/quote]
communication....it is a wonderful thing.</p>
<p>On that note-
there is room for everyone here.
And respect for each other, even though we may disagree at times, goes a long way in achieving understanding.</p>
<hr>
<p>
[quote]
I am not disputing the claim that they have to train year round. I know that from personal experience. I am just saying, you can't make the claim that since D&B are gone all the time that the same doesn't apply to varsity sports. Varsity sports should take precdence over ECA's (I am not denying that). So when one roommate gets "screwed" over by a varsity athlete and another by a D&Ber, the consequences that the roommate incurr are equivalent.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Jadler-
can fully appreciate what you are saying. And you are absolutely correct- those that make up for "lost hands," be it due to varsity sport committments, D&B demands, or other like activites, do get stuck "picking up the slack." At the same time, the athletes et.al. take a similiar "hit" for their "lack of presence"....mostly in their peer rankings, just as those who "picked up the slack" got a boost in theirs. So in that respect, there are consequences for everyone. Then again, in my limited vision, this is what "team" is all about. My question is to you is, don't the "consequences that occur" all "even out" in the end?</p>
<p>Naptown4 Couldn't agree more! Mine has really enjoyed the dance classes, etiquette classes and yes - even the Plebe Dances (many of the Plebes do complain about the Plebe Dances attended by local high school girls). He said the best was the I Ball! These are all important things that our young officers to be need to learn. </p>
<p>There are many ways to learn to be ladies and gentlemen, exposure to the arts will carry them far in their military careers, whether you believe it or not is up to you. I would hope that everyone wants our Naval Officers to be well rounded, polished individuals.</p>
<p>bz2010 - Thank you for providing a much-needed reality check. Ditto to the other USNA alums (USNA69, zaphod) who have provided some clarity to this thread.</p>
<p>I have written and erased about a half-dozen replies to these moms - shaking my head at their absolute obliviousness to what military life is all about. </p>
<p>More than once I haven't known whether to laugh or to cry when I read (paraphrasing here) a mom's post who feels "the Academy is accountable to my mid" or that "the taxpayers should fund the ECA for those who want to play war". </p>
<p>You know, troops serving in the Gulf area have Internet access. I would be terribly ashamed if a servicemember, interested in applying to the USNA as a 'prior', came across this site and this particular thread. The amount of hand-wringing and cries of protest over very very minor sacrifices these mother's children (deliberate use of term here) are being asked to make is absolutely inappropriate.</p>
<p>Zaphod post #128</p>
<p>My feelings exactly</p>
<p>
[quote]
Bull majors at an all time high? Guess we DO need a little less "Athens" and a little more "Sparta".
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Call me naive but I really do not get the whole problem that some of you have with Bull majors.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Every midshipman's academic program begins with a core curriculum that includes courses in engineering, science, mathematics, humanities and social science. This is designed to provide a broad-based education that will qualify the midshipmen for practically any career field in the Navy or Marine Corps. At the same time, our majors program gives them the opportunity to develop a particular area of academic interest.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>There are basic engineering courses that are required by every graduate. You say they are light courses, watered down for the non engineer. Well folks even at great engineering school this is the norm - if you are not an Electrical Engineering major but say a Civil engineering major - your circuits or Thermo course will be "light". If you are an Industrial Systems Engineer major you will not even be required to take Statics or Dynamics. Does this make you less of an engineer - less technically educated?</p>
<p>Look at West Point -
<a href="http://admissions.usma.edu/FAQs/faqs_academics.cfm%5B/url%5D">http://admissions.usma.edu/FAQs/faqs_academics.cfm</a>
[quote]
West Point advocates developing the "whole person" by providing a dynamic and integrated curriculum that balances the physical sciences and engineering with the humanities and social sciences. Graduates should be able to respond effectively to a changing technological, social, political, and economic world. The Academy instills in cadets creativity, moral awareness, and a commitment to progressive and continuing educational growth. Currently 42 majors are offered to cadets so they to pursue an academic major in a discipline of their choice. The two components of the academic program are a broad, general core program that is prescribed and an elective program that is individually selected.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>the core courses are not much different from USAN's
<a href="http://www.dean.usma.edu/images/academicprogram.gif%5B/url%5D">http://www.dean.usma.edu/images/academicprogram.gif</a></p>
<p>Why does this work at WP but not for Navy, what about AFA?</p>
<p>From the Air Force Academy <a href="http://www.usafa.af.mil/index.cfm?catname=Academy%20Info%5B/url%5D">http://www.usafa.af.mil/index.cfm?catname=Academy%20Info</a> Academics Factsheet:</p>
<p>
[quote]
A core curriculum provides the common body of knowledge that prepares all cadets for the Air Force profession. The academic core consists of 48 semester hours in the engineering and basic sciences and 43 semester hours in humanities and social sciences. This 91 semester-hour total, which equals 31 courses, makes up approximately 60 percent of the total academic curriculum. Other core requirements include five semester hours of physical education courses, bringing the total core requirements to 96 semester hours.</p>
<pre><code> The Academy offers 32 academic majors: aeronautical engineering, astronautical engineering, basic sciences, behavioral sciences, biology, chemistry, civil engineering, computer engineering, computer science, economics, electrical engineering, English, engineering mechanics, environmental engineering, foreign area studies, general engineering, geography, history, humanities, legal studies, management, mathematical sciences, mechanical engineering, meteorology, military strategic studies, operations research, physics, political science, space operations, social sciences, systems engineering, and systems engineering management. Minors in foreign language and philosophy are also offered. All cadets may pursue the major and minor of their choice. All cadets must have a major and may choose their courses from more than 500 offered each year.
[/quote]
</code></pre>
<p>Seems to me that the Naval Academy is trying to expand to meet todays military needs. Change is hard, but in academia a necessity if you want to stay competitive. </p>
<p>BTW Orders do go down the chain of Command but remember that accountability flows uphill. Just ask a few CO's that are not in the Navy anymore. The Supe is ultimately responsible for the Brigade. If moral is in the tanks - it is his problem.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Without going back to all the previous posts & quoting for examples, I wanted to address some of the mids' concerns about "being allwed to make decisions in order to learn leadership". For that to happen, the "powers that be" have to be reasonably sure that good decisions would be made. Unfortuantely, USNA has had a couple of public black eyes over the last year or so. Conduct Unbecoming an Officer at the very least.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Some of the worst and most damaging offenses made public last year were allegedly made by “adults”; officers and staff at the Academy. Should we then condemn and apply a blanket assertion across all academy officers and staff and suggest they are unfit to teach or lead? To suggest that we should have insufficient confidence to allow the vast majority of the Brigade to experience leadership roles and participate in the decision making process because of the stupidity of the very few is just plain wrong. </p>
<p>Over and over again I’ve heard the notion put forth here that we need to change the mission of the Academy because we’re at war or that our condition excuses or makes the changes being proposed acceptable or reasonable. The changes being made should be judged on their merits alone and the potential for them to improve the quality of our graduates. The mission should not change from war to peace time and swing wildly back and forth; that accomplishes nothing beyond stirring the pot. If anything, the academy should strive for some level of continuity, change when the times dictate change, not change for the sake of change. The mission is and should be the same whether we are at peace with the potential to go to war the day after the next class graduates or we are actively engaged in war making. Are we supposed to go easy on the Mids during peace time and then what? Send them back for a refresher course the minute hostilities break out? </p>
<p>Some of the other concepts that have floated through this thread are the “back in my day” the “some suffering is good”, the “harder the better”, and old standby “we should be thankful as they could have it much worse”. Yes it could be much worse; they could be sitting in a Hummer in Iraq waiting for the next IED to go off. But they’re not.</p>
<p>You could show up at your doctor’s office complaining of pain that prevented you from being seated. Your doctor could examine you and tell you that your pain was caused by hemorrhoids, which I assume would be preferential to a colon cancer diagnosis, a diagnosis which most would characterize as something worse…If through some miracle you were given a choice along with a third option; none of the above, would anyone choose either of the first two? In the administration of this Academy, the conditions and environment in which Midshipmen live, learn and grow is one for the most part, created by choices. I believe the USNA should settle for nothing less than the best environment they can possibly provide while they accomplish their mission within the constraints of their budget. </p>
<p>As to the suffering or surviving part, any parent that has lived knows all too well that our children will have more opportunities than we would like them to have, to experience the tough times that life will inevitably bring them. They too will have the chance to experience heartaches, losses and suffer through situations they may have little or no control over. At this point in their lives I would just as soon seem them live and enjoy their time at the Academy, make some good memories and friends, learn and grow so that they can be prepared for what awaits them after commissioning. </p>
<p>I don’t know how many EC’s are needed to make that happen, I don’t know how much food it will take, the one thing I do know we should all respect their ability to exercise some level of leadership and control over their environment as we will expect them to do precisely that upon graduation.</p>
<p>And if Combat Readiness has diminished, that is his problem also.</p>
<p>And why, exactly, do they call 'em hemorrhoids? Shouldn't they be called asterhoids?</p>
<p>Not that anybody wants to listen, but what about studies that demonstrate students who can read music are better learners overall? In a technical navy, isn't that preferable to linebackers who can tackle the opponent?</p>
<p>D&B is no worse than any other authorized commitment a mids may have made.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Some of the worst and most damaging offenses made public last year were allegedly made by adults; officers and staff at the Academy.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm referring to mids' behavior. To what are you referring, sir? I only know of some allegations involving staff - not facts. And some of the allegations were made by mids ostensibly trying to extort money from said adults. This speaks to mids' behavior, not the other way around.</p>
<p>In your second paragraph you make an argument against "changing the mission". I don't think anyone is seriously considering changing the mission.</p>
<p>Right on Bill...not to say that linebackers are not smart people just that generally speaking I would prefer brains over brawn.</p>