Life at the most insecure Ivy

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Pennsylvania
1

"Penn students never fail to boast about our reputation as the ‘social Ivy.’ What we’re less willing to admit is that we’re also a ‘safety Ivy,’ stuck in the ‘middle tier’ of rankings, somewhere in between Columbia and Cornell. But beyond our U.S. News & World Report ranking, at our core, we’re insecure.

A team of Penn psychologists conducted a study where they asked Penn and Harvard students write down seven terms to describe their school. While only 7 percent of Harvard students wrote ‘Ivy League,’ nearly a third of Penn students did." …

A freshman’s opinion.

http://www.thedp.com/article/2018/03/isabella-simonetti-insecure-ivy-league-penn-upenn-philadelphia-harvard-princeton-wharton

2

I don’t really see much significance in 1/3 of the kids putting down Ivy League vs. Harvard’s 7%. Whether we care to admit it or not, the majority of the world does think Penn is the same as Penn State and it probably does bother some students. I’d say it bothers about 1/3 of them :).

3

As a Penn alum, I’d say this is one of the silliest articles I’ve read in a long time.

4

I dont disagree with the premise that there is insecurity at Penn but her title is very inflammatory and pure clickbait. Sure Penn is insecure towards HYP, but Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth and Cornell are just as much.
If you are a very competitive and ambitious person it is only natural to be a bit insecure towards those the world perceives as better than you. It is true a rather big part of the Penn undergrad student body didn’t have Penn as its first choice. But that is the same for all ivies that are not HYP.

5

@nhparent9 agreed, but that is not specific to Penn it is true for all non-HYP ivies. The people who confuse Penn with Penn State also cannot name or be impressed by a single ivy past HYP.

6

@Penn95 perhaps so. I don’t disagree with you with the possible exception of New England with so many of the Ivies close by. I think people here have a good awareness of Dartmouth, Brown and probably Columbia. Having Harvard and Yale so close by speaks for itself. Penn has far lower Ivy recognition with folks around here in my experience. None of it matters, just my personal observation.

7

@nhparent9 that is a New England phenomenon. if you go to NYC, DC, PA area or West Coast that is not the case. In my experience the opposite is true especially with regards to Brown, Dartmouth.

In my experience people who cannot distinguish Penn from Penn State are college football fans who are not sophisticated enough to know any of the other non-HYP ivies either. Of course the regions near each college are exceptions. The average person in NH, MA will likely know Dartmouth but might not know Penn. The average person in PA, VA, DC will likely know what is Penn vs Penn State but might not know Dartmouth.

8

@Penn95 - I think you may be able to parse the other ivy schools a little more finely. You lump all the non-HYP schools together, but is this accurate?

According to the study, in a survey of American participants, 40.3% associated the word “Harvard” with the ivy league, and ONLY 1.5% mentioned the University of Pennsylvania. Are all the other ivies really as little known here? Are only 1.5% mentioning Columbia or Brown or Cornell?

I find that doubtful. The 1.5% number is pretty pitiful.

9

All that Penn students need to write down in any survey concerned about quality or prestige is one word–Wharton.

10

@Cue7
Why would you find that doubtful? There is no reason or evidence whatsoever to make one suspect that more people associate Columbia or Brown or Cornell any more with the ivy league than they do Penn.

Of course it makes sense to expect that a similar percentage mentioned the other non-HYP ivies in the survey and of course it is reasonable to expect that well over 90%+ of the responders in this survey mentioned HYP. Pretty much all mention of the ivy league in the press is followed by mention of HYP not any of the other 5.

11

But not all Penn students are Wharton students. That is another complaint the writer of the article makes, i.e. that Wharton students tend to emphasize their Wharton credentials more than they do their Penn credentials because they feel insecure about the prestige of the Penn brand relative to HYP.

12

At my east-coast feeder prep school Penn is considered sort of a mid-tier ivy and so is Columbia. They are not as desirable or impressive as HYP for sure, but they are better regarded than Dartmouth, Brown, Cornell. In any case, anyone would be lucky to get into any ivy.

13

@Penn95 - I find it doubtful because no other ivy league school has name overlap with another school, and such overlap can deteriorate brand awareness.

In that study/survey, 40% mentioned Harvard as “ivy league” and only 1.5% mentioned UPenn. That’s a huge gap, and do you really think, say, Columbia was at 1.5%?

Since the other schools don’t have the UPenn/Penn State confusion, they don’t suffer from the same brand dilution. Maybe people don’t know Brown (the same way people don’t know Penn) - but most don’t confuse Brown with any place else. UPenn, then, faces a double whammy that Brown, Dartmouth, Columbia, and Cornell never will.

That brand dilution can increase a sense of insecurity.

14

@Cue7 This is not true. The overlap with Penn State does not matter for this discussion. A person who doesn’t know the difference between Penn and Penn State also doesn’t know the non-HYP ivies. There is no double-whammy or extra brand dilution as you call it. You are either sophisticated enough to know the non-HYP ivies (including the penn vs penn state distinction) or you are not.

Yes the difference between Harvard and Penn in the survey is huge as it is expected to be. And yes i really think Columbia is not much higher if at all (often confused with the various companies that bear the same name or the country by people who have no idea about elite schools). Everyone knows without context what Harvard or Yale are and mean, Same cannot be said for Columbia. As for the other 3, definitely not. HYP are the quintessential ivies, there is a huge drop between them and the other 5 in terms of recognition.

The name/brand recognition of a school stems mainly from historical standing, its performance in rankings, the impact of its departments in the respective academic fields and the fame/success of its alumni. In that regard Penn has no disadvantage compared to any other non-HYP ivy and actually does better than quite a few of them. Plus the yield and cross-admit splits of Penn vs other ivies are quite telling as to where it stands in terms of recognition and perception.

15

@Penn95 - How do we know a person who doesn’t know the different between UPenn and Penn State ALSO doesn’t know the non-HYP ivies? That’s a fairly big jump in logic. It’s perfectly plausible that someone doesn’t know Penn vs. Penn State, but knows that Columbia or Cornell are in the ivy league.

The actual name of the school matters, disregarding historical standing, rankings, etc.

If this wasn’t the case, why would you see petitions like this:

http://www.thedp.com/article/2011/12/questions_raised_on_penns_name

I don’t see the other perspective here - of the elite schools, the ONLY two that could be confused with other schools are Penn (with Penn State) and Chicago (with UIC). The fact that these other schools (Penn State and UIC) are fairly large, prominent public schools impact the private schools in a way that you simply don’t see with Brown, Dartmouth, etc.

I absolutely think there are some people out there who don’t know the difference between Penn and Penn State, but have still heard about Brown or Columbia.

A related aside: the Daily Pennsylvanian actually analyzed this with one of the most brand-conscious public figures in recent history, Donald Trump. This is what they found:

http://www.thedp.com/article/2018/01/trump-penn-wharton-data-education-times-ivy-league-business-finance-philadelphia-campaign

He’s mentioned the fact he went to Wharton a whopping 52 times in public speeches, he said he went to an ivy league school 12 times, and he mentioned that he went to Penn… 2 times.

I think you’d agree most Wharton students don’t event do THAT - they often just say they go to Penn, because that’s what they consider is their school. The president, on the other hand, is in no hurry to embrace the Penn brand…

16

Sorry but Cornell wins the prize for most sarcastic remarks in media. I can’t tell you how many sitcoms and
dramas on TV I have heard things like “he had to settle for Cornell” or recently
“Cornell is the community college of the Ivy League”. I find them very funny actually.

At least Cornell is the best at getting the least respect ! And we have the most famous fake graduate :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPnAnRsqia0

17

Let’s be honest, Trump probably doesn’t even know that he went to Penn

18

Maybe it’s a regional thing because here in the west Penn and UPenn get confused. Brown might be better known because Obama’s daughter was considering it. Dartmouth would get you a ‘huh?’ And Cornell (my son’s school) would be “Oh that school that guy from The Office went to!” I have no idea how Columbia is perceived but in CA the majority of kids decide between UC or CSU schools without a second thought to east coast schools. The elites here are Stanford, Cal, UCLA, Claremont consortium. Lots of great choices with great weather so you can see how that debate about the Ivies is of little concern.

But getting back to Ivy insecurity…it’s a stupid topic and so petty. In the grand scheme of things is it so awful to be in the lower tier of the upper crust of colleges? I think not. Hold your head up high Penn :)>-

P.S. Maybe the school should’ve been named Franklin University

19

@CALSmom Penn and UPenn are the same school. Penn State is a different school. Obamas daughter was considering multiple ivies, including Penn.

I have worked in the Bay Area quite a bit and all ivies outside of HYP have similar recognition. In some circles Penn is actually a bit better known because Wharton has a satellite campus in SF.

Depends on the setting, this is not true for the elite private prep schools on the west coast (Harvard-Westlake et al). At those places Stanford + ivies are preferred over UCs.

20

@Cue7

Few people, mostly not very sophisticated ones in the tri-state area or new england. There are also people in PA and DE and even VA who know Penn but do not know of Brown or even Columbia and that they are ivies. However the vast majority of people who know the former know the latter. It is just common sense and not a huge jump in logic. An educated person who is able to name ivies past Harvard, Yale, (Princeton), is also knowledgeable enough to know Penn is an ivy and Penn State is a different school.

The President uses the Wharton brand and mentions the ivy league because it is more distinctive and is much more likely to stick, especially amongst his supporters the majority of whom are not exactly coastal elite types who would know all the ivies. If he had attended any other non-HYP ivy he would still be using the ivy league name much more than the specific school name. Harvard and Yale and Princeton are recognizable amongst the masses without the need to provide any further context or explanation. That is not true for any other ivy, including Penn, but not just Penn.

I just think this whole thread is asinine and based on the clickbait title of an elitist NYC-prep-school princess with nothing better to write. non-HYP ivy students are elitist, competitive, a bit insecure and many of them wanted to go to HYP. What is the news here?