<p>Yup! No problem.
I mean schools such as “Columbia College Chicago” and “Cornish College of the Arts”- not “standard universities”, but ones intended towards the arts exclusively (though they would still have basic classes for the sake of a “rounded education”) and that may claim to cater their education moreso to the individual artistic goals of the student.</p>
<p>The advantage of going to a music program of some sort is a lot more then the degree. Yeah, you can study on your own (music I mean), find performance opportunities, but there is something to be said for being in a program. People can and do study privately with teachers who teach at the ‘big programs’, and are getting a great level of teaching, but how about the other things?The music theory classes, that might have some real theory geeks in it to make it interesting? The solfege classes, the history of music, with kids who are obviously interested in music on the same level or so that you are; seeing other kids perform at a high level, to spur on your own drive to be better. I had trouble with this perspective, but it is true, that a great player in a mediocre group is probably not going to get much benefit, but when in a challenging group it can totally change the way things work, when challenged students have to rise to the challenge, and just being in that environment means a lot.My son belongs to a very high level youth orchestra, one that plays at the highest levels, and being in that environment propelled him forward in a lot of ways, that the orchestras he had belonged to in the past didn’t,because it set a high benchmark for him. </p>
<p>I also agree that unless you really love music and want to head into it, it may not be the best path, it takes from what I can tell almost an obsession with it to be able to move through what is a tough path. On the other hand, if someone goes through music, a music program, it doesn’t lock them into doing nothing else. Lot of kids come out of even the top level schools, like Juilliard, and end up not doing music, I have known graduates of some of the top music schools and conservatories who ended up as lawyers, couple of doctors, programmers, one or two mathematicians, and so forth…and in the job world, for many entry level positions someone with a music degree could be considered as qualified for a job as someone with a liberal arts degree or even a business degree, and once in the job learning goes on. </p>
<p>I think the one thing someone needs to go into music is to realize yes, its hard, yes, it is hard to become a professional in and make a living, but they need to have the sense of self confidence that whether or not they make it in music, they are strong enough and resourceful enough, that if they do choose the music path in school, that if they need to re-orient down the line, they can do it:)</p>
<p>Thanks musicprnt.
I very much agree on the aspect of having the confidence in knowing that a music degree can allow one the ability to reorient elsewhere- this was much of the assurance I was looking for in this thread, and I do feel I’ve recieved a basic skelaton of it anyways, though I’ll continue to do more research- I’d be interested to know just how many of such “reorient”-related jobs are truly available with a music degree. I’m sure it’s no doubt just a matter of hope and faith in one’s self, etc. at some point, but I’ll do my best to know all I can beforehand.
And yes, I would by no means discredit the college experience of a music major as is beneficial to the student- this is something I have certainly considered as well, but I’m just weighing out the costs and benefits more than anything at this point.<br>
A very good point- thanks a lot!</p>
<p>You may want to pursue the music school or conservatory within a university instead of an arts school. It will require you to take the extra classes but from what you have said you would probably benefit from it and enjoy it. One thing I did notice was the number of students who went on to other pursuits with a minor or double major at Rice. You might want that flexibility. There are other threads here re modern music, and composition school recommendations that would fit those requirements. Keep researching and good luck.</p>
<p>Born-
The answer to your question is difficult, simply because there are no golden rules for jobs. Yeah, there is this general view that the job path requires a certain education path, for example, to become a marketing person requires a college degree in business majoring in marketing, if you want to become an IT person you need CS degree, and so forth. Obviously, there are jobs like that, especially jobs that require grad level education (such as lawyer or doctor, with specialized schools), but others are more flexible.</p>
<p>Concrete examples I know of? </p>
<p>1)4 people who went to conservatories (including NEC, Juilliard and Berklee) who ended up in the IT field, without going back to school for a degree in CIS/MIS
2)Couple of finance types, working for investment banks, who had degrees from music programs within a university.
3)Number of corporate executives, who had music degrees (some did later go on for MBA degrees, but were able to do so with a music degree).</p>
<p>I can tell you with certainty, that through 20+ years of working in the corporate world, that relatively few paths are cast in stone. Yes, if you have a degree in CS, for example, it is probably easier to hook a job in IT in the initial phases then someone who has a non CS degree. Likewise, it could be that the career you end up with takes a circuitous path, that you get a job at some company in a relatively low level position, and end up working up through to something different. </p>
<p>Would it be easier to come out with a degree in some ‘hard field’? More then likely, but then again, if you are thinking of music seriously, it isn’t going to be any harder to convert to another field if music falls off the map then trying to make it in music in the first place IMO. I think other people hit the nail on the head (either in this thread or another), that if you look at music as something you really need/want to do, then head into the music program. If you have the idea that maybe something else as a vocation might be what you want to do, then maybe do music program as part of a university, where other opportunites may be there for you if music doesn’t pan out (in school I mean). My point is that it might be easier in some ways to have “backup training” in case music doesn’t work, but that doing so might have impact on going towards music, and conversely, that if you go whole heart into music, go to conservatory, and don’t make it in music, it is possible to leverage what you have into other careers outside music. Obviously, everyone’s comfort level is different and in the end your own gut is probably going to tell you what you need to do, where your comfort level lies, and there is no one’right’ answer, as there frankly rarely is with anything</p>
<p>As I’ve mentioned on these boards before, my guitar playing economist S, whose brother goes to Juilliard, likes to point out that Mick Jagger went to London School of Economics, and Alan Greenspan went to Juilliard. :D</p>
<p>Binx-
True enough, though to be fair, Greenspan never got a degree from Juilliard (he dropped out), and later went back to school at NYU and got his bachelor’s and masters in economics (he got his Phd from there like 30 years after that…). Then again, though, it does show paths are not set in stone (though I know people who wished Greenspan had stayed a musician,not necessarily for musical reason <em>lol</em>)</p>
<p>You may want to pursue the music school or conservatory within a university instead of an arts school. It will require you to take the extra classes but from what you have said you would probably benefit from it and enjoy it. One thing I did notice was the number of students who went on to other pursuits with a minor or double major at Rice. You might want that flexibility. There are other threads here re modern music, and composition school recommendations that would fit those requirements. Keep researching and good luck.</p>
<p>Okay thanks, I will certainly consider both options. The big influencing factor for me would be whether or not the arts school degree would make a difference as far as obtaining different jobs go once the degree is obtained
do you know anything about this specifically, or where I can find out?
Id also be interested to know in what other ways getting the degree at an arts school versus a non-arts school might inhibit me. Would it hurt me at all if I find myself wanting to do a masters at some point? Anything else? Thanks a lot.</p>
<p>And thanks again musicprnt! Im totally with you on everything you said about nothing being really in stone and all that- I guess what Im really trying to find out right now is just how I will be best off in the sense of probability. I am at this time thinking it would be most ideal for me to do a vocal music performance major over at an arts school. Im trying to figure out things such as the probability of getting jobs as a vocal performance major at an arts school versus a non-arts school because these would be key things that would cause me to have to re-assess this pathway.
And a very good point about the backup training. I hadnt really thought about this or minors or anything of that sort recently- something else to consider. All valuable input. Thanks a lot.</p>
<p>Haha, and yes, a very interesting little tidbit there binx, thanks, and yes, also kind of a realy world example of a lot of the things people have said.</p>
<p>Bornman-
The answer to your question about job paths after getting an arts degree doesn’t have a specific answer,like “if you get a degree from an arts school, and decide not to stay with singing, you can go into marketing, finance, dry cleaning [:)]…” There simply aren’t rules for that, which is what I am pointing out. Let me give you an analogy, someone goes to a liberal arts college and majors in English, or history, or Russian Literature, with an eye towards the academic track, getting a PHd and teaching. Student goes through said program, and then after getting the degree decides they don’t want to go on (as plenty do)…yes,there are some obvious paths from some of those programs, for example an English major into publishing or advertising copywriting (based on experience with reading literature and writing), or a Russian Literature major might be fluent enough in Russian to be a translator,or maybe work for a publisher that specializes in Russian titles…but many who do this end up in totally different area (think the movie 'The Devil Wears Prada", one of my favorites, where a young college graduate who thinks she wants to work in journalism ends up working in the fashion industry as the assistant to an Anna Wintour like editor). </p>
<p>I think you need to realize that quite frankly, you don’t come out of college day 1, and be ready to do high level jobs, and people hiring realize that. Generally, kids coming out of college with a comp sci degree, for example, while they have knowledge of programming and data structure theory, are generally not going to be thrown into the heat of battle doing complex programming, because chances are they know nothing about the system they are working on or the business rules behind it, and things like the operating environment is likely going to be totally unfamiliar to them in one sense or the other (obviously, it depends on what the student has done before graduating, many already have professional experience, but a lot don’t). Kids coming out with liberal arts degrees often get hired into relatively low level positions, like assistants and such, and then work their way up, learning on the job.In that case, there is probably little that a liberal arts major in history let’s say has over someone who studied music performance at a conservatory. Likewise,a performance student can get hired as an assistant or whatever, and then through formal training or on their own, learn programming or other skills and move into a different career path once in…</p>
<p>I think the way you may want to look at it is that a college degree in a specific field, like cs or accounting, can and does make getting a job directly in that area easier, but that would be true compared to a liberal arts degree, but it also doesn’t mean that it is impossible to get there from here, so to speak. Obviously, the skills learned in majors like cs or accounting have direct relevance, but they aren’t the whole picture, either. As others have pointed out, a college degree is a lot more then simply a piece of paper saying “joe blow graduated with a ba degree in English”, to an employer it represents the fact that the person went through a program, had to go through the discipline of learning about a variety of things, and persevere to get the degree, it is about showing ability (hopefully to learn), but also in getting through to an end. </p>
<p>Someone who has studied music performance has shown similar things, in a different path. They may not have had to take a course in Sumerian literature for a non western civ course, but they have had to practice their tails off, do auditions, master classes with teachers who would have been pals with attila the hun, learn not only things like how to practice, how to breathe (for vocal students; instrumentalists, especially wind players, never breathe), music theory, solfege (so they can sing “Do, a deer, a female deer” from the Sound of Music in harmonic Eb minor), and frankly, a lot of pain and suffering and forbearance (since even if your teacher bites the heads off chickens every time you have bad intonation, or tells you you stink, you can’t react,just like a boss at work:), and so forth. Seriously, a music student has shown the kind of learning and perseverance that many employers are looking for, so I think it can be an entry into other job fields (like I said in another part of this thread, I know people who have done that). The other thing to keep in mind is that where you got your college degree pretty quickly for the most part becomes less and less relevant, it is what you do and have done that counts on the cv and in the job world as time goes on (there are exceptions, there are always ‘school snobs’ who hire from the old boy network, or the idiot who asks an experienced professional with many years experience what their UG GPA was (someone does that on a job interview, I walk out the door,it is a sign of a company run by pointy haired bosses)…</p>
<p>As has been stated above a BM degree is a college degree. If you choose to pursue a different path you will most likely need additional training, schooling, to work your way up the “totem pole.” This could be the case regardless of undergraduate major.</p>
<p>Purely anecdotal, but I know people with BM and BFA degrees who are doctors, lawyers, in veterinary school, college professors, high school & elementary teachers, counselors, psychiatrists, producers, writers, etc… just about all of them needed to go on to pursue additional schooling and/ or training beyond their undergraduate degree. This was not because they had a BM or a BFA, but because the careers paths they wanted to follow required post undergraduate level training. </p>
<p>For the ones who have gone on to med school or veterinary school they often needed a little time to make up undergraduate coursework they missed, but this would have been the case if they had been english, history, accounting, political science, etc… majors who later decided they wanted to pursue these career path.</p>
<p>There are no true clear cut answers to your question about job paths for those with music degrees, or quite honestly with most degrees. I know history majors who are in computer consulting, english majors who are in design, french majors who are in business. Figure out the kind of undergraduate experience you would like. If you are not sure, apply to different types of schools and programs. That way you will be in a position to hopefully have choices come April. GOOD LUCK! :)</p>
<p>Musicprnt- I guess I wasnt looking for rules as much as I was looking for perhaps any historically-based knowledge on the matter (a.k.a. well I know people who get arts degrees in music often end up
, I know this one person who
, etc.). That or any type of stats or facts anyone might know, articles they may have seen on similar matters, or even intuitively based advice, maybe rooted in just knowing a lot about this stuff (a.k.a. I would guess based on what Ive seen that you would have more opportunity for different jobs with a degree from a non-arts school as opposed to an arts school). I totally get what youre saying- theres many grey areas with this. I guess Ive been trying to milk anyone on this forum who was watching this for whatever little tidbits of info that they might know to be in existence on the matter even if it seems like a stretch; I get that it is. If there is nothing to be said, so be it, but I figured Id be best served to ask regardless. I see that perhaps I may potentially be being unrealistically meticulous about this; perhaps I should be working more in the scope of whats possible as opposed to probable at this point in the decision making process- I had not been perfectly sure of this previously, however. Through all the similar advices I am beginning to think this is most likely the case. I do get and am inclined to agree with everything youve said. Thanks for all the advice, youve been very helpful.
If anyone still has anything else to offer regarding my question, Id still be more than happy to hear it. Otherwise, thanks everyone (including KatMT, thanks! Much appreciated as well) so far for all your time. :-D</p>
<p>I think you’re at the point where theoreticals can wait until you know where you get in or not. Next step is to concentrate on your applications and auditions.</p>
<p>Regardless of where you get in, and where you end up going – motivation, dedication, creativity and intellectual curiousity will show up no matter where a student studies. That is the kind of thing prospective employers are looking for. You can demonstrate that no matter where you study.</p>
<p>My D is a junior and starting to look at grad schools. Her undergrad major is violin performance, but she is looking to switch fields for grad school - probably something language-based (eg. linguistics). She asked me to help her develop a list of potential schools, so I’ve been looking at a lot of websites. One thing I noticed is that there is a wide variety of requirements. Some schools prefer an undergrad degree in the same field, some schools require that you will have had at least an intro class, and some schools require just run-of-the-mill basic liberal arts courses in science, math, etc.</p>
<p>Since my D is in a university setting, she does have the liberal arts base. And she has the potential in the next year and a half to meet some of the other course work necessary for some schools. Of course, we will have to eliminate those schools that are looking for an extensive background. But it did cross my mind that had she gone a conservatory route like her brother did, she would have a lot of make-up work to do before she could even consider applying.</p>
<p>So if you think a complete change of field is possible in your future, you may want to chose schools that allow you to taste of other fields. Even if you end up with a performance degree, if your transcript shows that you’ve had success with science, or computers, or foreign language, or whatever - it will open up more options for you.</p>
<p>Binx she is fortunate that she has come to this decision with a year and half of undergrad left. The next question is will her school allow her to remain a performance major if she is taking all the courses she needs to prepare for a post grad degree in another area? Often that involves loss of scholarship, no longer participating in some ensembles, loss of lessons, etc.</p>
<p>Hope it works out well for her. Good luck to you. So I gather after helping my son with his undergrad process my participation may not be over?</p>
<p>Trumpet…actually, we did very little with our son regarding his graduate college search…but he was looking at music programs and truthfully knew what he was looking for in an instructor and location.</p>
<p>Our DD is NOT a music major, but continues to play her instruments in college. Her grad school search will be a little different than her brother’s but even so, we’ll have very little involvement.</p>
<p>Trumpet57 - This has been my D’s plan all along and is no surprise to the college. She actually applied to MiamiU as a linguistics major, but she auditioned for a music scholarship, and they told her they would give her more money if she would switch her major to performance. At that time, they told her that doubling was possible, but that she was only allowed to name one as a freshmen, and they wanted her to name music. The linguistics undergrad major ended up not practical as a double major. It would have required that she give up every other optional course and take a very full load just to meet requirements. Since she wasn’t sure about linguistics, she really wanted the room in her schedule to look around. She is currently listed as a double major in performance and German. She went in expecting to eventually drop the violin performance after a couple years, but found out that she really enjoys “permission” to play her violin so much. (“I’m supposed to practice - it’s my major.” As opposed to high school: “I want to practice but I have 3 tests and 2 projects this week…”)</p>
<p>She is planning to drop the German major because she doesn’t want to meet all the core requirements for two different schools (Arts & Sciences and Music). Instead she will earn minors in both German and Chinese. She appreciates the chance to take a variety of courses. She loved Physics of Astronomy last semester, and this semester she is enjoying Field Botany. She has really taken advantage of the opportunity to explore. She has also taken such courses as Intro to Speech Pathology and Ballroom Dancing.</p>
<p>Her schedule actually opens up a bit as her music courses have fewer requirements as an upper classman. </p>
<p>My son would have been miserable in this environment, and my D would have been miserable in his.</p>
<p>I’m curious to see how my D handles grad school when she has next to no time to play her fiddle.</p>
<p>Binx…I have the same question re: our DD. What will she do with the $17,000 worth of instruments if she gets into the Peace Corps…oh, did I tell you we just had them serviced…only $900…not including the one way shipping of $250 (mostly insurance) that she paid.</p>
<p>I haven’t read this whole thread, but just want to say that high school music teachers who discourage students from majoring in performance are absolutely a crime!</p>
<p>Our high school music director told our daughter not to major in music because she was good at other things, and music was only for those who could not do anything else!</p>
<p>And, if anyone’s son or daughter does do a plan B with music education, let’s hope they don’t join the ranks of these awful teachers!</p>
<p>There is nothing wrong with doing what you love as an undergrad. As many people have said, it is a perfectly legitimate bachelor’s degree just like any other. Leave the vocationalism for grad school perhaps.</p>
<p>Binx your daughter sounds like a bright and inquisitive young lady who will do well whichever path she ends up on.</p>
<p>Thumper you had to remind me of repair bills? But yours are worse, so I guess I should not feel bad. Now a closet of expensive instruments is another story.</p>
<p>Compmom I have mixed emotions. I kind of support discouraging kids to go into music even as an unergraduate major. If you can discourage them enough to not do it they likely would have not done well or dropped out anyway. The old only if you can not possibly see yourself doing anything else thing. I would hope they would all keep playing for a lifetime if they have talent, but we do not need 10 million kids with music degrees.</p>
<p>I hope my son takes the opportunities that binx daughter has taken to take all kinds of courses and open his world. If he then finds something that pulls him away from music as a major it is probably a good thing. As much as I love his music, I know the odds that going all the way through grad work in performance is probably not the best use of his time or money.</p>
<p>Once again Trumpet57, I find myself at a loss to understand your reasoning and opposing your statements. Would you actively discourage a student from going into medicine- we have too many MD’s in this country at the moment, or veterinary medicine or dentistry? There are far too many of those now too and the same with business students at the Master’s level. Careful with the hyperbole- we know that you don’t mean “10 million kids with music degrees”, but I don’t think that you are in any position to determine which careers should be pursued and which dreams abandoned.
So much of what you say about the study of music is negative, something we don’t usually have here. This is a MUSIC forum, and we are here to support the study of music and the pursuit of a career in the field. Audition season is fast approaching and it’s a time of heightned emotions and feelings on edge. I hope that you rein in your negative opinions, because the last thing someone needs when things don’t go right for them or their youngster is to read a post saying, “Well, it’s for the best, because they wouln’t have succeeded anyway”. Negativity is not something which needs to be spread around-unfortunately, there’s no vaccine to combat like there is for the flu.
If you don’t choose to support your son in his endeavors, that’s your choice. Even if your disapproval is covert rather than overt, he’ll sense it. Don’t be surprised if he turns away later in life, remembering that you weren’t in his corner when he needed it. I haven’t found one single person on here who doesn’t support her/his child 100% and no, we’re not living in denial. We joke around about travel costs, repair bills and how many pairs of shoes our daughters take to school- but we also share information about types of voice recorders, hotels nearby a particular school and peformance clothing. Some of us correspond outside of the bounds of CC, share sore throat remedies and send an e-mail or make a phone call if we notice that someone hasn’t been around for a few days. The love of our families and of music has brought us to this place, and in the two years that I’ve been lurking or posting I have never seen as much negativity as you possess.You post a statement or two, but then you write things such as, and I paraphrase here, " Conservatories are only for rich people" or that “the odds are against making it in the music field”. Specious comments and ones that are at worst hurtful and at best, unwarranted or unsupportive don’t do anything to improve the tone of things.
I don’t know if others feel as I do on this, but it’s become important enough to me that I have to speak out. You may have valuable contributions to make and that would be great. I know that I’m not the last word, nor do I speak in any official capacity, but I fear for the harmony of the community, especially as the weeks pass and auditions loom right ahead.</p>