Likely a rather basic question...

[SJTH]

<p>Bornman, back to your original question. I agree with Mezzo’s Mama that this is a place for support. What you need to decide is where your passion lies. You don’t have to teach, but many working musicians DO teach. I can speak specifically for jazz here in my town–there are musicians who support themselves solely as musicians; there are musicians who teach privately or at the HS or college level. There are musicians who have “day jobs” who gig at night. I met a Downbeat fanatic lawyer last week who gigs at night. Music-as-a-passion for your lifetime is possible in many forms. This is the best time of your life to follow your passion. I remember my Dad telling me I could absolutely NOT be a political science major because I couldn’t be hired as anything. I changed my major to english, but still veered to law school. I never practiced law. And my life turned out productive and ok!</p>

<p>Find people here who seem to “get” you and they can give you more specific advice. It’s an exciting–and scary–time, and we vets will be here to help you the best we can!</p>

[BornMan]

<p>Thanks a lot SJTH (and everyone else) for the encouragement! I will continue to seek advice as needed during this process. :-D</p>

[binx]

<p>I’ll tip-toe into the fray here, hiding my face beind a bandana so you can’t see me. This is scary…</p>

<p>I didn’t see Trumpet57’s post as negative, only an opinion, which is what makes this board valuable. (Maybe I am missing some post somewhere?) The forum is great for support for all levels! But I’m not the type who thrives when surrounded only by people who think like me, so I welcome other viewpoints. That’s when I learn the most. Trumpet57 is at the start of her S’s voyage, and I remember that as a scary place to be. I think that Mezzo Mama makes a good point about support, but I’d rather that we be able to disagree without getting personal.</p>

<p>I was extremely supportive of my S’s decision to go into music. I had to be, because just about everyone else was cautious in one sense or another. If I had a dollar for everyone who told us to develop a back-up plan, I wouldn’t be so deep in debt now. My H is very practical - he wanted to know (and still wants to know) if S will be employable and independent eventually. We had to ask my in-laws to voice their opinions only to us, and not to S because we were afraid it was going to affect him negatively, and he needed all the positive thoughts he could get. </p>

<p>Fortunately, like Trumpet57 alludes, he was so bent upon being a musician that the comments didn’t affect him that much, except as a minor irritation (kinda how my kids feel now when I ask them when they’re going to settle down and start producing some grandbabies for me!) His private teacher was amazingly supportive, and since S idolized him, that helped negate the Doubting Thomases.</p>

<p>However, his best friend, a girl who played oboe, didn’t get the same support from those around her, and I think it affected her decisions. Her family (especially an older sibling she was very close to, who was in medical school at the time) strongly discouraged her pursuit of music. She ended up going to IU, did not apply to any staight conservatories because she wanted a broader education (and it is my opinion that she wanted it because she wanted to please her family.) She started out as a double major with performance, ended up meeting the requirements for a BA after 2 years, and dropped music all together. Last I heard, her oboe was for sale. And she was good. It makes me sad.</p>

<p>Certainly there will be some who say her drive wasn’t strong enough, she didn’t have what it takes, her passion wasn’t there. But I do believe that a lot of our passion for anything comes from the response it gets from those we love. Music is a tough business for those who have no support.</p>

<p>I do know a number of parents who encouraged their kids to go into music because they were mediocre students academically but always got A’s in band. I’m not sure that needs to be encouraged. As a piano teacher, I firmly believe that some level of musical understanding and appreciation is attainable to almost anyone, but I do try to help those who ask understand that a performance degree might not be in everyone’s best interest, and that if they are sincere in their desire to study music, there are many other paths and careers that include music in some way.</p>

<p>Blanket enthusiasm for anyone who considers music does make it a bit less meaningful for those who deserve it. In my mind, I think that some hard questions at the forefront are appropriate. Once the decision is made to go forward, then whole-hearted support is called for.</p>

<p>[Edit: Sorry, BornMan, for the detour!]</p>

[musicprnt]

<p>Actually, it isn’t a detour to talk about the realities of music, it is why Bornman asked the question in the first place about what is more practical to major in. It is well known that going down the path with music is difficult, and facing that, it is not surprising people want to know ‘if this fails, what can I do?’. </p>

<p>As far as encouraging their kids, my wife and I are probably up there with most parents on this board (would never claim a superlative, having seen people who drive 7 hours to NYC to get their kid to a music lesson, fly them in from california each week for Juilliard Pre college, etc), but I think realism is also important, too. I too dislike statements like ‘there are too many kids studying music’, since that implies that somehow kids studying music is a drain on the economy, forces the planets out of orbit an the like (personally, there are way too many kids studying finance and management IMO, but that is for a different forum), which to me is implying that if someone is studying something that has difficult paths or hard to achieve rewards, forget it (and more importantly, it leads to the idea that if you study music, don’t go into it in the end, that you are a failure doomed to work in McDonald’s, which is ridiculous, as is this asinine notion that kids growing up can’t afford mistakes, missteps and path changes, wish I knew where that was coming from). I think there are kids going into music who are deluded, who don’t realize just how difficult it is, have some sort of idea they are going to be a star, etc, but I think that as much as we try as parents and fellow denizens, in the end if they choose to go ahead and try it, all we can do is offer our counsel, and then support them in their decisions.</p>

<p>I also believe there is a line between being realistic, about being grounded, and totally trying to control someone else’s life. Even as parents, there comes a time when we have to allow our children to make their own choices, and if in the end it doesn’t work out as they thought it would, they need that space to make their own choices, even if they run counter to our wishes or desires. I am sure a lot of parents would rather their kids become doctors or engineers or whatever their dream job is, out of love and a desire for them to succeed, but in the end they have to learn to make their own mistakes and figure out their own path,by this point they are their own people. I think if we don’t support them, even with doubts and reservations, then in a sense we are setting them up to fail, because we are teaching them they still can’t make their own decisions, mom and dad and uncle joe know best, and that is not a good way to help them establish their own sense of self and strength to handle things IMO.</p>

<p>It reminds me of parents that when kids want to try playing an instrument (I am talking here grade school, middle school) and hearing them tell the child “why should I pay for music lessons, you won’t be any good, you can’t hum a tume,no one in the family is musical, why should I waste money like that?” (and I am not talking about a family whose budget was way limited, believe me, they weren’t), it is projecting our own sense of things onto them, and not even letting them try…when my son started the violin, so many years ago, we told him that it was okay that at some point if he didn’t want to play any more, that it didn’t matter, that he had to listen to his inner voice about that, that if the time came it was his decision. We did tell him that we would ask he finish out the year with his teacher, to give it some time before making the decision final, but that the choice was his, and recently he said that that took so much pressure off of him, knowing he wouldn’t be forced, that it allowed him to relax and enjoy the violin and the music…which, given the level he is now operating at, with demanding teacher,conductors, etc, I think has given him the basis to face a rough path:). </p>

<p>I think the most famous story is probably that of Leonard Bernstein.His father (who owned I believe a shoe factory), was upset when Maestro Bernstein decided to head into music, instead of going into the family business, and refused to help support him at Curtiss, even if it meant basically room and board. Asked later about his decision, the father snapped back “How did I know my son was going to grow up to be Leonard Bernstein?”…I think that says a lot about support…</p>

[musicamusica]

<p>Lovely post Musicprnt.</p>

[rigaudon]

<p>Sorry to be repetitive, but I have to ask this. So some people really fly their kids from California weekly for Juilliard pre-college? Isn’t there something comparable on the west coast?</p>

[Mezzo_sMama]

<p>Excellent post Musicprnt. Thank you. Seriously, are there really people who fly kids cross country for a pre-college program? Wow, a bit much…
I am hoping that I misread Trumpet’s sentiments, I sincerely want that to be the case, and if that is true then I apologize here in front of everyone, just as I posted for all to read. My writing was due to elements posted by Trumpet in two current threads, one which blasted conservatories and made it seem as if any of us with kids who are attending/have gone that route are egalitarian and that it is foolish, a waste of money and only for the wealthy. I happen to disagree. And then there is his ongoing comments intimating that planning for a career in music is wrong because the odds are stacked heavily against it. Of course, he is entitled to his opinion, but so am I. We all know how high emotions run during audition season, and with the sentiments heretofor expressed, I truly feared a post in response to someone’s kid being rejected from a particular school would likely express something in a similar vein. Again, if I am wrong or “borrowing trouble”, I stand corrected.
This is not comfortable for me, because, I am by nature, fearful of confrontation. I also know that my fears are exacerbated by my own experiences, first with a family who was completely against my accepting proferred admission to Curtis,going to far as to relocate from PA to FL to remove me from the " sphere" and since I was underage, I had no option. Currently, my D is totally estranged from her father, who has chosen not to speak to her for the past 4 years, when she stopped playing soccer to devote herself to music, flute and voice. He refused to even pay support for her if it went towards her music study- the State didn’t agree with him!. He missed her HS graduation, has never heard her sing and tells everyone who will listen that “she could have been a world-class soccer player, but she’ll starve to death being a musician,especially since she has no talent”. Lack of support for a child’s hopes is really a hot-button for me. By the way, Trumpet, I in no way think that you would or have acted in such a fashion towards your son- you wouldn’t have made the effort to seek out this site if you felt that way, so please understand that this part is coming from me and is solely based on my experiences. Having put this out there, perhaps you can better understand why it bothers me to hear you say that you think your son could make better use of time and money.Please, listen, be there for him- who knows, maybe he’s the next Wynton Marsalis! My D did have options- actively recruited by all the Ivies, except one, as well as offered a full scholarship to a very well known “all girls” college and another free ride to an excellent school, awarded to her when she was but a junior in high school. How could I possibly have asked her to go that route before allowing her a shot at her dream? She attends a top-tier conservatory now, and due to having so many AP/dual credits accepted, she doesn’t need to take any more Gen Ed requirements, but she chooses to do so and will be dloing a dual-academic minor in French and History I am sure that there are others here who have kids who have done the same thing; just because they choose to immerse themselves in the study of music doesn’t mean that the learning of other things comes to a halt. None of us knows what will happen, how far our kids will go in this, but I’d far rather have my D happy in music than miserable as an attorney (her dad’s preffered option for her).</p>

<p>I hope that I haven’t shared too much here, but I felt that it was warrented and safe. I am now stepping down from my soapbox and dragging it to the trash!</p>

[rigaudon]

<p>I think this discussion about parental support of music study is important, but I am concerned about something else. </p>

<p>Bornman, I did not see anything in your posts about parental attitudes or support for your music study (sorry if I missed that), and I am concerned that this discussion has veered off a bit from your own questions. I think you mentioned awareness of the relative expense of various schools (sorry if I am confusing you with someone else) and also concerned about prospects for making a living. Anyway, I don’t mean to get into anything personal about your situation, so this is just a general comment, not aimed at you in particular, and NOT calling for any response from you about your own family/financial situation. </p>

<p>This discussion reminded me of something that has nothing to do with you in particular, but has to do with the importance of thinking things through like you have been doing. </p>

<p>I have had conversations with a lot of current graduate students and recent college graduates in various fields who have taken what I consider shockingly large amounts of student loans and I worry about the burden they pose when payments of maybe 800 or more dollars a month would be required for many many years. One example. While on vacation, I recently spoke to a young adult who was an assistant manager of a small retail clothing store. This person had been studying some kind of contemporary music/“music business” program in a college in that city and that had taken out over 80,000 dollars in loans because parents would not pay for this music program in an out of state private university, and their incomes were too high for the student to get a lot of need-based aid. The particular school this person decided to attend did not offer big scholarships. In my opinion, no matter how much this person loved music, it seemed like a terrible prospect to have to pay back all those loans.</p>

<p>In the NY Times, there was an article in the last few days (education section) about how college admission officers are bracing for possible greater shifts in application/enrollment numbers because of the economic situation. It said something about more people being concerned now about getting into schools they can afford than getting into their dream school this year. Endowments are still down in many schools and unemployment rates in this country continue to be high. </p>

<p>If you look at other discussion pages of College Confidential, there are many discussions about students being tempted to take out gigantic loans to go to their dream school rather than some other less desirable school that would not require a lot of loans to attend. </p>

<p>I think that in situations in which there is not a lot of financial contribution available from family for whatever reason and chosing one college would result in a huge amount of loan obligation, depletion of retirement savings of parents, etc. while choosing the in-state public university or some other less expensive option would result in little or no loans, it is a good idea for the student to consider carefully what it would mean for the years after college to have a really big loan burden.</p>

[musicprnt]

<p>Merzzo-</p>

<p>Thanks for sharing that story, I think it is perfectly on topic. Ironic that your D’s father would make a statement like that about music, and turn around and make the statement about being a world class soccer player. Granted I don’t know how good your daughter is, but last I checked, the odds of a high level career in soccer weren’t all that great, that unless in the case of women’s soccer you get to the olympic level, you don’t exactly live ‘the high life’, so to me it is kind of like the pot calling the kettle black in a sense (though it does highlight something, one of the things I have run into with my son is that people when they see the dedication to music that these days happens at such an early age, especially on the violin, don’t understand it, they kind of look at him and us like we are from Mars, etc…yet, the same people will talk about the parents of promising tennis players, who at 8 or 9 are practicing several hours a day, gymnasts, hockey players, child actors, and not bat an eye at the dedication they have,meanwhile the odds against making it in those fields is probably as bad as music, yet a kid wants to be a ballerina, a musician, a singer, they twist their eyes. One of the reasons is that in sports, there is the hope of an ultimate payout, that for example a top level gymnast can hit the olympics and make a fortune in endorsements, a Michael Phelps can, well, you get the picture…and yes, in music, even at the higher levels like singing at the Met or being in the Philharmonic, the pay level doesn’t hit that of pro sports…it says a lot about values I think, or lack thereof (one of the funniest things I heard was from a relative, who was Scots-Irish from the old country, and he was telling me how Rod Stewart was a fool to go into music (this was after he hit it big,mind you), that he could have been a top level football star in Europe (guy probably makes more in one concert then many players do in a year or two of playing;). </p>

<p>I wasn’t being facetious about what people do for their kids in Juilliard (living in the NYC area, we have it easy, we just have the 8 hours on saturday to kill). The story about flying in from California is true, we met the girl and her mom (who this year decided to get a studio apartment in NYC), and they flew in every weekend last year. Another family we know drives in every week from Virginia, about 7 hours, coming up thursday night; We heard about a family from West Virginia whose son was in the composition program, and they packed the family car every late Friday night and drove to NYC. Lot of people where the parent and child stay in a pied a terre in NYC during the year (most of these kids are homeschooled, for obvious reason)…
There was a story in a book about Dorothy Delay where this girl from Taiwan and her father show up literally at Delay’s office, the father had sold the family house there (I believe the mom was deceased), all on the speculation of making it into Julliard Pre C on the violin because everyone said how good she was back home and so forth…the father didn’t have a job here and not a lot of money, so that was the leap they made. Worse, Delay knew the girl wasn’t ready, but managed to wangle some sort of grant for the girl and her father, taught her for a number of months, and the girl got it…</p>

<p>Are there better alternatives other places? I would argue there is, there are some pretty good prep programs on the west coast (heck, flying to SF would be easier then NYC!),but Juilliard has a cachet that literally spans around the world with this stuff…we used to think about how much it takes to support a musician to be, but compared to these people we are pikers!</p>

[Trumpet57]

<p>Hi Mezzo’s Momma</p>

<p>I first take no offense at anything you said and do not see anything confrontational in your opinions, just like there were none in mine.</p>

<p>Next let me make it perfectly clear few if any parents support their child’s music with any more time or enthusiasm than I do.</p>

<p>Also I am 100% confident that my son will find a profession in the music business or music related area where his performance ability will help him. He is just that kind of kid that finds a way. Not to mention his various activities and broad range of his experiences in different areas that his knowledge and abilities have taken him.</p>

<p>What you view as negativity, I see as reality. Would I steer my son away from committing 4 years to becoming an NBA player if he was 5-3? You bet. I have talked to parents with kids that barely are good enough to make a decent HS band talk about how they are encouraging them to become performance majors. I see no difference in that and the basketball example. I do believe in the statement that is often quoted, if you can discourage them from becoming a performance major they probably would have quit anyway. I could not discourage my son if I wanted to, and I do not. I do want him to know the odds are against him performing for a living. That along the path he needs to see the rest of what is going on in the world as we heard about binx’s child.</p>

<p>As for the conservatory complaint. Not sure what I said with which you have the disagreement. I know I quoted a comment in Downbeat about not taking out large loans just to go to an expensive school. And yes I think there are kids at conservatories as much because of their parents wealth as their own talent. But that gets into deep discussions of talent vs preparation and many other factors.</p>

<p>Again I don’t see the philosophy of just going to college to have 4 years of doing what you enjoy, being a universal truth. The get serious in grad school comments I find disturbing. But that is all about opinions. I do recognize that a music degree is often as good or better in getting a sales job at Bloomingdales as a philosophy or English major. Said somewhat in jest. Bet when you read the article about Julliard grads, not just the ones that started at Julliard and gave up or were weeded out, but grads ten years later and the number working in music is insignificant and far smaller than those working the counter at a department store. I think to ignore those facts is to have a worse philosophy than being “negative” and making certain your child makes an informed decision.</p>

<p>And yes I do find it strange that with orchestra jobs that pay any money are not going up in number yet we continue to have more and more schools with degree programs that point toward preparing a student for an audition for an orchestra job. Yes maybe the one less student that did not go to school for music might have become the next Wynton or Yo Yo Ma. But in reality, you have hundreds of kids if not thousands putting off reality because no one wanted to sound “negative” to that equivalent of the 5-3 kid planning on an NBA career. </p>

<p>There are certainly ways to continue with music while studying to become a doctor or engineer or journalist or any of dozens of professions. Many of the best players in high schools are doing just that while weaker players go off to music programs. I would say many of the kids that now have a Podunk U with its new music program filling spots to enrich the college with the funds of kids that neither have the talent or ability to enter programs in the past.</p>

<p>And that is probably the most controversial opinion I have. I think there should be far fewer music programs and they should be far more selective. But then all those performance majors that failed to do what they should have known they had no chance of doing would have nowhere to teach. As a discipline studying music has rewards outside of a future in music and that probably trumps my opinion.</p>

<p>I would indeed encourage other interests a child that is considering music. I think far too many parents invest their ego in their child’s play just like they do in sports. Plenty of mommies thinking their child will be Joshua Bell just like the daddies thinking they will be Larry Bird.</p>

<p>As far as all the talk of flying to NYC for programs or moving, consider for a minute the hundreds of kids from all over the world at 12 or 13 move to Bradenton Fl to study tennis with Nick Bolletierri. People hand their kids over or move and live there. And the same happens in gymnastics. And again these are mostly rich families with dreams. And for every Maria Sharapova that makes it hundreds have nothing to show for it, or worse.</p>

<p>I think people do get a bit naive or new age to just say how great it is for every kid that plays an instrument in the marching band should just go try and be a performance major at Julliard just because they enjoy playing. Almost everyone enjoys “playing”. Lets see play my instrument for an hour or read history for an hour or do 100 math questions. I know this generalizing and hyperbole but those kids do exist. Those kind of parents do exist. Are they doing any harm? Do not be so quick to say no.</p>

<p>Sorry to use up so much space and be so philosophical. Just wanted you to understand my views which I think you misunderstood to be negative.</p>

<p>I am sorry I forget who responded to your first comments on my opinions but they probably expressed it better than I did. They did not see it as negative.</p>

[musicprnt]

<p>Trumpet:</p>

<p>You raise real issues in your last post, and I don’t think it is negative, I think it is on the money, that parents should make sure a child is realistically looking at their chances if they thing they are going to head into music. As you point out, a 5’ 3" boy doesn’t have much chance of getting into the NBA, and a child who may be an okay violin player in the school orchestra has frankly pretty dismal chances of making that his/her vocation. I don’t think anyone is saying be unrealistic, if my son was going around thinking he was a shoo in to be the next Joshua Bell, I would be giving him quite a talking to, about expectations and realitiues (I don’t have to, he knows; he is immersed far enough in the world of music, knows a lot of really good musicians in the NY music scene at all kinds of levels, to know the realities, as do we). </p>

<p>Are there rich parents who dream of their kid being the next Joshua Bell, who put all these dreams of glory on the kid, spend umpteen dollars on tutors for homeschooling, on lessons and so forth, and single mindedly focus on that? Yes, most definitely, there are more then a few students like that around Juilliard Pre college, lot of what my son’s teacher calls the 'little Korean Girls", who have been educated at home by wealth families, have had 5 or 6 lessons a week since they were X years old, and show up at an audition with a 200k violin…and many of them have about as much chance of making it in music as I do. There are also delusional teachers, I am talkng the solo instruments, who don’t prepare their students for the real world, they train them and set them up to believe that only being a soloist is a ‘real’ career, they actively pooh pooh ensemble playing as a waste of time,complain about the time their students spend in Chamber music and orchestra, and given the realities of music, well, that is delusional. </p>

<p>I would argue about the top conservatories, though, about people rich enough to go there without the talent. While being able to pay the freight could make a difference, in that a more talented kid who got accepted doesn’t go there because they can’t afford it and a kid next in line gets in because of it, maybe…but unlike academic universities, especially the ivies with their ‘legacy’ students (as a cousin of mine put it, the incredibly dumb scions of incredibly rich families, he made a small fortune writing term papers for them), the top conservatories have such a pool of talent to draw from I doubt they take kids who are rich but untalented; maybe less talented then some other kids…I have seen kids, at places like Curtiss, that I wondered how they got in, but that was more about my opinion, not level…and I know money had nothng to do with it:).</p>

<p>I also agree that given the situation in classical music, where the number of orchestra jobs and the limited amount of chamber and of course soloist positions, that it probably is true that the programs are turning out too much product for what is out there. Juilliard (the college) about 15 years ago contracted quite a bit, and Joseph Pelosi, who instigated the changes, said it was to adjust to the realities of the music world, that they took in too many kids where there just wasn’t the world of music outside to support them (he also instituted changes in the curricula and such to refocus graduates to fit the world that is out there),and the pre college likewise cut back the size of their program quite a bit, because again they felt that given the nature of the music world, and the competition at the next level, that it didn’t make sense to admit as many as they had been. Again, that is being realistic, and something a potential student needs to be made aware of. </p>

<p>My objection is in the idea that somehow a child going to music school who has potential is ‘wasting their time’, or the idea that music itself is a waste of time as compared to let’s say being an accountant or middle level manager or whatever, if a child has the talent and the passion for music, if they understand how hard it is, then to me it is wrong to focus only the money issue (Trumpet, this is not referring to your post, you never said anything about this), or how hard it is.People know how hard it is to get into medical school, but because people know the income potential of most doctors, they will encourage a kid, even if he/she doesn’t show much potential, because of the money (though I wonder how parents would feel if the kid said they wanted to go into medical research as a doctor, where the pay scales are often worse then musicians…:). I think if the kid has had the reality check, knows the competition and the reality, and still has the passion, and the talent potential or otherwise, then I think the encouragement should be there. I also disagree with the idea that ‘failed musicians’ somehow will end up as a salesperson in a department store, or is doomed to a mediocre existence, that is hogwash, that to me is like the parent whose kid didn’t get into Harvard or didn’t get a 1600 (or whatever the top score on the SAT is these days), is doomed to failure, that is simply untrue to me, it is part of the idea that if you fail once, you are doomed, and that isn’t true.</p>

[Allmusic]

<p>The independent appraisal of talent is important, obviously, as has been discussed here ad nauseum. Mom and Dad, or the local teacher, even if the student is the “star” in the local high school or town, cannot judge true potential in the bigger world of music conservatories. That’s a given.</p>

<p>And there are loads of music programs, and kids who will never be music stars in the future. Perhaps they will go to med school, or become insurance company executives, or teachers, or whatnot. Is that so bad? I don’t think so. I’d prefer that to forcing a student to study engineering, because it is a supposed “sure” job upon graduation.</p>

<p>That said, some of the absolutely best musicians we know are not at conservatories at all right now, but studying at Harvard or Columbia.</p>