Likely? Was I misleading?

<p>hey I am new here, I go to Deerfield.
Based on my experience at Deerfield, I totally agree with Bearcats, Tuftsucks(WHAT? tuft does not suck), Loophole and others. </p>

<p>Goaliedad, you are totally wrong, sorry to say. In general, not to create stereotypes or anything, girls athletes are more academically qualified than guys athletes(those who are purely recruited); and it is rather obvious that the male team coaches get more say than the female team coaches, especially football and boys hockey. A majority (not all, I am not trying to generalize here) of these two teams are complete jocks who definitely dont belong here academically and would NOT get in without the coaches' pull; while many girls athlete are actuallly top of the class and would be qualified to get in (might not have gotten in without the coaches tagging their admission files for special review but still around the ball park).</p>

<p>Hmmm...interesting case study because I think the same would/could apply at public school as well. I would generalize and say that female athletes are more likely to fit the scholar/athlete role than males. It seems there are more "dumb jock" guys than "dumb jock" girls. Perhaps our society as a whole places more importance on male sports so guys are let off the hook in a way of having to focus on academics, too, while girls are not? Most good female athletes I know are smart and strong students and are very good at time management.</p>

<p>BUMP for goaliedead to counter 5 people's idea</p>

<p>Since goaliedad and biffgnar are involved in the girls side of things, I'll cut them some slack because they don't understand the difference between the two. I'm not trying to be patronizing here. Until you are heavily involved in both sides, it's hard to see the difference.</p>

<p>I think I have posted before that if everyone is saying academic standards are compromised materially for certain male athletes I am clearly not in a position to dispute that and, while I am surprised at the level of schools we are talking about, I accept that. To goaliedad's point, ordinarily I would have suggested that perhaps some of the male athletes don't measure up to CC standards but can't be that bad, but again you guys are the ones there.</p>

<p>My questions and thoughts really go back to an early statement that coaches away from the identified sports have little influence on admissions. I was surprised by that but at this caliber of school was really only expecting them to have a tip for people who were at least in the running already. That though it sounds like you guys perhaps agree exists for a broader universe.</p>

<p>So perhaps there is less disagreement here than it might seem and I don't purport to have any personal experience as to what caliber of boy hockey or football players have been admitted.</p>

<p>This whole discussion got me thinking on the drive home tonight about the argument in The Price of Admission about admissions preference given at the college level for some of the "off the run" sports. I realize that doesn't have anything to do with this discussion and is perhaps a tangent that belongs on another board, but couldn't help but think about the similarities and differences in the two ideas/discussions.</p>

<p>I guess if the non-athlete guys from Hotchkiss (and other "top schools" - how I hate that term it is sooo snobbish) want to believe their male athletes are dumb jocks, I guess they are entitled to that opinion. </p>

<p>I just happen to know that there are plenty of top rate smart guys who play hockey. A personal friend's goalie son (with grades and SSAT scores good enough to make the cut at any of the AESDCH without coach's tip) got accepted to 2 of the other top quality schools frequently mentioned on this board last year. Even got an FA offer commensurate with their SSS filing. Turned both schools down (there was some last minute coach shuffling at these schools) and is currently a #1 goalie on a top Junior team in the midwest. So if your schools seem to be attracting lesser academic talent (in your opinion, not mine), I guess your coaches aren't doing a good job of recruiting.</p>

<p>I am very sorry that this small, self-selected, sampling of students from these fine schools have taken it upon themselves to prepetuate the stereotype of the dumb-jock at their schools. </p>

<p>Personal note to tuftsucks, perhaps you should ask the moderator to change your screenname. It really doesn't reflect well on you as a serious student nor does it show much maturity. I showed a friend of mine in admissions at a USNWR top 100 university this thread, and he said that he wouldn't admit a person who has such a screenname. He has a little respect for other schools.</p>

<p>"I am very sorry that this small, self-selected, sampling of students from these fine schools have taken it upon themselves to prepetuate the stereotype of the dumb-jock at their schools."</p>

<p>I am also very sorry that this even smaller stubborn sample of size 1 is trying to twist other people's argument and put words in other peoples' mouth while he pretends to know everything though he doesnt even have any experience with the top schools. </p>

<p>No one ever stereotyped all the male athletes as dumb jocks, we are merely saying the proportion of academically not-up-to par kids is much greater than that of the girls' team because the boys teams are weighted much more heavily and the coaches get more say.</p>

<p>Ok, I'll use your words...

[quote]
Go to a top school like AESDCH, you will feel it.... sometimes things cannot be proven with numbers, since we cant get people's numbers anyway (they are supposed to be confidential)...but you go to classes with these people, you talk with them, you watch them do their hw (or not do their school work)..........and you can feel the difference

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Perhaps this is the gentlemans way of saying "dumb-jock", but if you said that about my kid, I'd take it that way.</p>

<p>
[quote]
...though he doesnt even have any experience with the top schools.

[/quote]

And you are making me glad that I went to an inner-city high school and yet was able to get admitted to the 2nd toughest major and graduate with honors from a USNWR top 25 university (a bit higher than Michigan, thank you). I didn't need to have experience with a "top school" to do that, now did I?</p>

<p>Goaliedad, I think that was a bit harsh about Michigan. Remember, you are a grown-up, and bearcats and the others are just kids.</p>

<p>My apologies to those affiliated with the University of Michigan - a truly great public university. Yes, that wasn't a nice way to put things. I guess I was getting a little bothered by the "top school" thing being rubbed in my face. Must be getting late and I must be getting tired. </p>

<p>Thanks for correcting me.</p>

<p>This thread should be locked. It's strayed so far off course and even if it hasn't crashed, it still needs to burn. Apparently the earlier allegations of moderators among us wasn't true!</p>

<p>Hey Goaliedad. My son plays both varsity hockey and football at an AESDCH school. He got a 98 overall on the SSAT with a 4.0 GPA in middle school to be admitted for 9th grade. He is currently earning A's in AP physics,calculus etc.
Before you think I am going to help you prove your point I have to let you down.My daughter is a good athlete like yours and got a 99 on the SSAT and will be attending one of these "top,elite,kick ass" schools next year (Lord willing). Wow, sorry. Unfortunately, this opportunity has little or nothing to do with her skill at sports. She is a strong enough athlete to play four varsity sports as a prep next year (9th grader).The coaches at all of these schools have told me almost without exception, "good luck with the admissions process" and btw what were her SSAT scores? Huh? A little different from my sons' experience last year. Once I had a coach ask me about my sons grades or scores. I was asked however by two coaches if there was an indication how high my son might go in the OHL draft. My son loves his teammates and appreciates them as human beings but the truth is that the majority of them would not come close to meeting the academic standards required of the girls ice hockey goalie. He tells me that many would be fine public school students and are by no stretch "dumb jocks" but they ARE taking the AESDCH equivalent of "rocks for jocks", in most cases. Again, there are always some of exceptions. It seems to him that their validation is not coming from hitting the books. The 2500 fans are screaming from the bleachers though.
The reason people make generalizations is that they are generally true and no amount of political correctness will change that.</p>

<p>"And you are making me glad that I went to an inner-city high school and yet was able to get admitted to the 2nd toughest major and graduate with honors from a USNWR top 25 university (a bit higher than Michigan, thank you). I didn't need to have experience with a "top school" to do that, now did I?"</p>

<p>No. You dont. Prep schools are not colleges....AESDCH would be equivalent to ivies, and since you said "a bit highter than Michigan" I assume you didnt go to the top of the top ....and so what? My dad graduated from Cornell Engineering with a 4.25 GPA ...</p>

<p>and by the way, as suze and other experienced posters had said, if one's goal is to get into the ivies and stuff, go to a crappy public school and shine. The point of AESDCH is not for the college matriculation (or it would be a wrong reason to go there), people go to these top BS for the experience...which you totally lack.</p>

<p>oh, and when is USNWR a liable ranking resource?? They hav vandy and emory in the top 20 for crying out loud</p>

<p>Blueliner, </p>

<p>Thank you for supplying good, supportive information form your personal experience for your view of the situation. And from your experience with those boys coaches, I can see how you'd come to the conclusion that you have about the boys. I don't think it reflects well on those coaches, nor the institutions that they seemed more worried about draft potential than test scores. I'm also sorry to hear that these players seem to get their validation from the fans as opposed to from academic and personal growth. </p>

<p>And it is great to see that your son can be both a recruited athlete and a top student at a great school. And I've corresponded with a couple of families of male hockey players coming from AAA backgrounds applying to AESDCH schools as well, all of whom have GPAs and test scores above the averages for the schools they are applying to. My point is that your son is not alone and I believe that there are plenty of well qualified applicants out there who do very well at these schools. OK, maybe they arent first round draft picks, but do these schools look at themselves as prep schools or as Junior hockey teams?</p>

<p>For your daughter, I wish her luck as well in the optomistic sense. I'm not sure from the way you wrote it what the coach's tone was for that "good luck", (being professional, discouraging, or being personally supportive). Being a 4-year multi-sport varsity athlete at a bigger prep school probably isn't as important as at a smaller school where they need kids who can fill many needs, but still has advantages when the adcoms look at whether they can fill the varsity squads only using full-pay, academically superior candidates. They generally prefer not to have to use scholarship money or academic tipping to fill in the ranks (solid players, but not difference makers) of most squads. </p>

<p>You said your daughter would be a 4-year varsity player, but didn't indicate that she is a difference-maker. These difference-makers I believe is where schools start using the coach's influence in admissions (both in boys and girls sports). Having been around girls hockey for a number of years, there are very few of them out there. Most girls teams are lucky to have 1 or 2 of them. Often at the prep schools they are Canadian. I can't speak for the boys side.</p>

<p>Perhaps the difference between recruiting boys and girls difference-makers is that the girl difference-makers have better stats. My experience between girls and boys hockey (my D played both) players has been that I've seen many boys who are benched for academic issues by their parents, but I've only seen one girl held off the ice for those reasons (and she wasn't a difference-maker). Perhaps the population of girls who participate in sports like ice hockey is different and the boys who participate in ice hockey. Perhaps girls mature younger and "figure it out" sooner. So perhaps it doesn't take as much of a tip by the coach to get the girl difference-maker as it does for the boys coach to get that difference-maker.</p>

<p>I appreciate the light you have now brought to your first post and I hope I've shed some light from my end. While it is disappointing to hear how much of a difference your son has seen in his teammates, I think that to bring out these poor admissions decisions without bringing examples of the things done correctly only serves to prepetuate the myth that athletics can overcome anything. And personally, I don't think the coach is doing these kids any favor by getting them a diploma that doesn't fit their true achievement (based upon your rocks for jocks statement). I think these kids could very well go to another more academically fitting school and play every bit as good hockey. Maybe the crowds would be smaller, but if their motivation to play hockey is the love of the game and not the love of themself, the crowds are not nearly as important.</p>

<p>And yes, I am trying to fight against the generalization, especially when it is being espoused by students who aren't a part of the varsity teams they generalize about. And when they have a young, impressionable audience, I believe this behavior on their part only serves to build prejudices and poison the minds of those younger board members.</p>

<p>You may call it political correctness. I repsectfully disagree and think of it as trying to stop the cycle of ignorance. Your input about your son's teammates has shown the grain of truth, but more importantly, your son's personal situation demonstrates that hockey players (as well as other high-profile athletes) are more often great students, just like everyone else. </p>

<p>Thanks again.</p>

<p>"not dumb people, but lazy people, or less motivated academically... most of them"
Wow! You have the screen name Bearcat, your mascot ,but you hate on your athletes. Have you ever played a sport competitively? i guess all of those lazy not up to par jocks that went on to Harvard Yale and Princeton must have flunked out when they went on to the above mentioned schools.
Are you upset that more hockey players will matriculate to Harvard than kids in the the math club?
Has someone from the hockey team teasing you?
I don't understand your obvious despise toward these fine young men.
The next time you visit your athletic center, remember it was donations from the dumb jocks that you are able to enjoy such fine facilities.</p>

<p>Goaliedad,</p>

<p>I think we had exchanged some posts last year. I'm glad to hear your daughter seems to be doing well at her school of choice. Is she playing in a D1 school? I just wanted to chime in a bit on this subject. I have first hand experience with a friends D who plays on a top NE hockey team and was interviewed at some of the top schools spoken about on this board. She did not gain acceptance, and was told that the reason she didn't had to do with her need for financial aid and her SSAT scores. While I believe the situation could very well be different for a Tier 1 goalie.... there are enoug Tier 1 line players that she didn't get that extra consideration. She is attending a smaller school getting enormous amounts of ice time and a great education. Whether or not that is enough for her remains to be seen. These kids are competitve both on and off the ice, and I'm relatively sure she would rather be attending one of the 10 school coalition schools. BTW Bearcats.... that coalition would be much more analagous to the ivies which is also nothing more than a sports league, then the indications you gave in another thread. That being said, Loomis, Taft and others that you snub your nose at would be very much like Harvard/Cornell etc.</p>

<p>KarateDad,</p>

<p>Yes, she is playing at a D1 school, but not at one of the top schools, so she sees lots of rubber. And she is an only goalie, so like your friend's daughter, she gets lots of ice time.</p>

<p>My experience agrees with your thought about there being enough Tier1 line players to supply the top Tier 1 teams. There are enough goalies too in the sense that with 25-27 game schedules, keeping 2 top rate net minders fed is difficult, so they spread themselves out to other schools. Frequently, you'll see a top rate 9th grader come in behind a top rate senior with an understanding of succession. Very few top goalies feel the need to sit behind someone 1 or 2 years ahead of them, unless they have a good club option to get them enough ice time.</p>

<p>Getting back to your friends daughter... Needing money and being a bit short on SSAT was probably too much to overcome. Either one by itself would probably not have been a problem. My D's test scores were not in line with her transcripts (she took the SSAT at 9 AM after playing a 6 AM hockey tournament game and driving 70 miles to the test center because this was the only date and location we could get to - they don't offer SSAT within 200 miles of us). And like your friend, we are FA dependent. </p>

<p>But in the end, like your friend, we found a situation that has been great. And in the end, the fit of a student is far more important than the name on the sign in front of the school. Hopefully, your friends daughter will come to appreciate that as it is very easy for young kids to get hung up on trivial things.</p>

<p>Although my experience is primarily with boys athletics, it seems to me that the coaches and adcoms of many BS and universities don't have to worry about a lack of academically qualified top female athletes. </p>

<p>Female athletes seem to be taught at a much younger age that very few professional opportunities will be available in the long term and that it is important to put as much emphasis on their academic endeavors as their athletic ones. Thus, adcoms can choose top female athletes from a stronger academic pool. Our local PUBLIC school had one girl go to Harvard (soccer), one to Dartmouth (soccer), three to UC Berkeley (lacrosse), one to Stanford (golf) and all were in the top 5% of their graduating class which included female non-athletes matriculating to Princeton, MIT, UCLA, UCB, etc.</p>

<p>However, don't sell the boys short. There are plenty of male athletes who are also excellent students, but the huge pool of strong male athletes seems to have a much greater range of academic ability. I'm sure that keeps the adcoms and coaches up late during the next few months trying to find the impact players who will also be successful in their respective schools! </p>

<p>To consider girls' sports or coaches less influential or significant is a big mistake. Due in part to Title IX, more girls have the opportunity to go directly from HS to be impact players in D1 sports at the college level and actually graduate than their male counterparts.</p>

<p>BTW one of the top scholars at Loomis last year was also the top female athlete in the graduating class.</p>

<p>goaliedad said, "in the end, the fit of a student is far more important than the name on the sign in front of the school."</p>

<p>Couldn't agree more. There is way too much emphasis on AESD on this forum.</p>