<p>I know its too early, but Im doing some research on college options for my D, who is finishing up her HS freshman year. My gut feeling is that she is a good candidate for LACs, and she confirms this as well. We havent actually visited any colleges yet, but she says she wants small classes, smart/engaged classmates, caring professors, etc. Also wants DIII sports will be able to participate. Terrified of large schools, cant see herself there at all not surprising seeing how she attended very small schools all her life, both public and private. Even the smallest LAC will seem large to her, as her graduating HS class will be around 60. I like what I see as benefits of LACs, and Im pretty sure she will do well in them, provided she picks the right college for her. The concerns I have are tri-fold: first, it seems to me that LACs have limited selection of courses and really small departments compared to larger universities. The research opportunities may be there and they all may be going to undergrads, but there are fewer of them than in larger universities. If there are only 5-7 professors in the department, how can there be a lot of research going on? LACs in consortia are obviously an exception. Second concern is social fit D is somewhat of an outcast in HS, just doesnt fit in mainstream HS culture, and since her school is so tiny, she is having a hard time finding like-minded people (not a partier, has geeky/nerdy/weirdo reputation). She is also shy and takes time to feel comfortable in any new environment. Im a bit concerned that she will run into the same situation in a small college. Finally, the third concern is geographical D says she doesnt want rural schools, and that rules out a lot of good LACs!
I am thinking that perhaps, small research universities can offer the best of both worlds, but am I mistaken? Im thinking along the lines of UChicago, Brown, Tufts, WUSTL, URochester schools with about 4000 6000 undergrads. Ds current study interests include psychology major with art minor. I looked at psychology department sites at some of the above universities the course selection is mind blowing, compared to LACs! UChicago has almost 50 faculty members listed (although the list may include post docs as well). LACs course offerings are adequate, for sure, but they seem to be basic compared to universities. To be fair, not all psychology departments have the same focus, from my observations. Some combine psychology, cognitive science and neuroscience courses, and others have pure psychology and separate departments for cognitive science and neuroscience. Still, Im wondering if small research university setting offers a better education and preparation for grad. School (where D will almost invariably end up if she really goes into psychology).
Its too early to talk in terms of particular school choices, as she didnt take SAT or even PSAT yet, so we dont know which schools would be in her range. Im just trying to understand what type of school would be best for her. Or, maybe she should look at both kinds and apply to both
Any thoughts? Are my assumptions/concerns correct or completely off? I did not go to university in the US, so all my knowledge is theoretical or learned here on CC. Ive read multiple threads on LACs vs. large universities, but Im considering the smallest research universities, so things are less black and white here.</p>
<p>USUKmom: I agree with you that small research universities are a very good alternative. Our S has been going to one of them, from similar size schools as your D. They offer excellent education, possible opportunity for undergraduate research, merit scholarships (thogh not so much for international students), more opportunities than LACs and Division III sports.
To the ones you mentioned, add Brandeis, Carnegie-Mellon, Case-Western Reserve, Johns Hopkins and the Claremont Colleges (Pomona/Scripps/Pitzer/Claremont-McKenna).</p>
<p>May be a good middle ground, but also check out Macalester. Urban and urbane campus, her personality would fit right in, her international background would mesh with the school's focus, D-III athletics, and she could cross-register at U. of Minn. three miles away if there's a particularly esoteric course she wants from time to time.</p>
<p>You could also look to universities that give merit aid based on SAT/GPA/Rank, for example Baylor in TX and Whitworth in WA both have strong athletics (not Duke or UCLA strong, but strong for their size) and offer as much as $12,000 per year for merit money, a big help.</p>
<p>Gadad has a Good suggestion to look at LACs with cross registration potential. Smith is a LAC with the ability to take classes at five colleges (including Amherst and Mt Holyoke).</p>
<p>check out haverford, swarthmore, and bryn mawr.</p>
<p>the tri-co is seriously amazing...you have three very well respected LACs and cross registering is super easy, and if the tri-co doesn't have a class you daughter wants she can take it at UPenn.</p>
<p>Not isolated, Hav and BMC are ten miles away from center city Philidelphia. i think swat is a little further away. </p>
<p>All three have very small student bodies, beautiful campuses, intense academics, and have that "community feel."</p>
<p>i'm going to haverford next year, can't wait. it's going to be awesome.</p>
<p>usukmom, My son is a graduate of a small liberal arts college. He had a wonderful experience academically, intellectually, socially and now that he’s in the Real World he’s still benefiting. So, needless to say, I’m not exactly impartial. </p>
<p>To cut to your last paragraph, yes, she should look at both. In fact she should look at a wide range of colleges in different types of environments. I read in one of your other posts that she’ll be on the East Coast this summer. A perfect launching pad for college visits.</p>
<p>Are your assumptions/concern correct or completely off? Yes, both. Small LACs are so individual and quirky that everything you say – positive or negative – could apply to one or another. </p>
<p>Limited selection of courses and really small departments. Obviously the departments are smaller than what you’d find at a large university. My son didn’t find this to be an obstacle. A student only takes 32-38 courses throughout her college career, maybe half in her major, fewer if she spends junior year elsewhere. </p>
<p>At my son’s college and in his major he had just the opposite problem. He could have filled up another 4 years with classes he didn’t get to. This isn’t the case at every department at every LAC, but for my son it was never an issue. I went to the University of Michigan where I had the choice of literally thousands of courses, but I still only took 4-5 per term.</p>
<p>If there are only 5 professors in a department, then yes, that department at that college may be limited. Again, it varies widely by school. For example, Williams Psychology department (which is one of the most highly supported departments on campus) has 18+ on its faculty. There’s plenty of research going on. Their track record in admissions to graduate and programs is exceptional.</p>
<p>Social fit. Small LACs tend to be accepting and inclusive. Many have orientation and housing arrangements that are especially tailored to provide instantaneous social groups. Each school has a distinctive personality but if you choose the appropriate fit you will find your people. The admissions committee has a good understanding of their college’s character and generally (though not perfectly) they do a good job selecting kids who will succeed academically and socially. </p>
<p>Geography. Having only lived in big cities my son assumed he’d want urban, but after visiting instead chose rural and insular which for him, was absolutely perfect. He’s back in the city now, but doesn’t regret the time he spent in a profoundly beautiful natural setting.</p>
<p>Visit, see what clicks and what doesn’t. There are a reasonable number of good LACs that are in cities, suburbs of cities or lively towns. Barnard, Swarthmore, Haverford, Wesleyan, Wellesley, Amherst, Smith, Skidmore, Macalester, Trinity, all come to mind. If she reconsiders on the rural aspect the following are also good for psychology+art: Williams, Hamilton, Kenyon.</p>
<p>If your daughter would like to participate in her sport on a varsity level, she should begin to contact coaches at a few schools to see where she stands. The ability to participate actively may be the tradeoff between LAC and small university.</p>
<p>My son looked at several of the medium sized colleges that you list. They are wonderful schools with smart energetic students and faculty. In the end, the LAC experience spoke to him. It wasn’t just the size, it was the intense focus, the relationships, the interaction. I guess that's what fit is all about.</p>
<p>Definitely visit both. Although a small Uni may appear to be the perfect solution, if your D ends up really wanting the LAC experience, there is a world of difference between 2,000 and 6,000 undergrads. She might end up loving the small unis, but I know for me, Wesleyan, at 3,000 students is the perfect size, whereas Brown, which was my second choice, seemed a bit too big (a large part of the reason I liked Wes better). For some people who are really into the small LAC experience, even Wes seems large. And while limited course selection can be a concern at smaller schools (more people do get shut out of classes), I've still found there are way more classes here I WANT to take than I will be able to!</p>
<p>In terms of the social concerns, that too is all about fit. LACs can be very neutering environments, where a lot of effort is put into making sure students feel comfortable, and some are known for having a lot of students who were like your D in high school, so she’d no longer be the minority.</p>
<p>PS. I know you said no specific schools yet, but if your D ends up being in range, definitely have her check out Wesleyan...we're an LAC, but slightly larger than most, with a tiny grad department in Psyc, which lends itself to a lot of research opportunities, because grad funding + not many grad students = lots of undergrad opportunity. Plus we are a haven of kids who had “geeky/nerdy/weirdo rep in highschool :P )</p>
<p>Have her look at both kinds of colleges. You can do that around where you live. It became pretty clear, very quickly that our son preferred a smaller school. A classmate of his surprisingly loved the bigger rah, rah type state U's. They were pretty set on a small Div 3 school so he could play his sport that he loves, but he preferred the larger school, and is going the intramural, club sport route. </p>
<p>Some kids don't have any preference. Then you can check out which schools can offer the best resources and opportunities. My son was offered some directed research opportunities at some disparate schools, one quite large that he included on his list for that reason. Remember that all the programs in the world are not useful for your D if she cannot get into them. Look for a good match in environment, after all this will be her home, and for the opportunies.</p>
<p>If your D looks at a school like Carleton or Swarthmore (or Reed or Whitman or Oberlin any other of the LAC's that have already been mentioned) she'll be surrounded by about 900-1,500 other students who felt just like she did in high school.</p>
<p>I'm at that small university (University of Chicago), and while I don't regret my decision to come here, I do regret that I completely wrote off some LAC's based on how I thought I would think of them. I think I would have fared better at an LAC than at a lot of other schools I was looking at alongside Chicago.... because I didn't consider any LAC's, Chicago was the hands-down winner for me, but if I had considered LAC's, schools like Carleton, Reed, and Swarthmore would have rivalled Chicago in what I was looking for.</p>
<p>Socially speaking, if she picks the right small school she won't have a problem. While a small high school can be socially hard because it's just a random cross-section of kids, colleges are much more self-selecting. So a school with a geeky/nerdy reputation will attract a higher proportion of those kids, and she will find people she likes.</p>
<p>Great advice so far-- I'd add Lewis & Clark (OR) and Goucher (MD), both internationally-focused small LAC's near great cities and Grinnell (IA)--even though it's in a small rural town, it is loaded with activities and opportunities. My son can't fit in a fraction of the couses he'd like to take or the activities he'd like to do. Another great option is Beloit (WI). Great you are starting so early and can look at all kinds of options, including honors colleges within larger U's if she qualifies.</p>
<p>Oh, and Clark U (MA), one of the best for UG psych and it also gives merit $$.</p>
<p>Thanks for the great advice, everyone!</p>
<p>Macalester and Carleton have been on my radar for a few months. They do seem like a good fit. Unfortunately, D looks primarily to California, and I have some work to do on her stereotypes – for example, that Midwest is not all rural, and there are great cities that have much to offer. Her focus on California is driven in large part by weather – she hates English weather and wants warmth and sun. This logic also eliminates Portland with Reed and Lewis & Clark. Current dream school is Pomona, which is not one bit helpful, given how selective it is. I’m encouraging her to also consider Scripps and possibly Occidental. I don’t know any other good LACs in CA. She did agree to apply in the Northeast as well, which I would much prefer since we have relatives there, and will be moving there ourselves at some point.</p>
<p>Regarding cross registration, I’m a bit sceptical. It sounds wonderful in theory, but I’m not sure how realistic it is, unless the campuses are literally adjacent. I can see it happening in Claremont colleges, but with Smith/Mt. Holyoke/Amherst? As soon as the students start depending on buses/trains to take them to another college, scheduling becomes tricky. And if the student has any ECs it makes it even harder to fit everything in. </p>
<p>Overall, I agree with your comments that we should visit both kinds of colleges in various geographical settings and see what she likes. As momrath noted, my daughter will be in the US this summer (for a minicourse at Brown), and we can do some rounds. We have family in both Boston and NJ, so there should be no shortage of colleges to visit. </p>
<p>bethievt, thanks for bringing up Clark U. – it was not on my radar. It can make a good safety or match school (hopefully, a safety!), and psychology seems to be very strong there. Merit $$ is nice, considering that we won’t qualify for any fin. aid. Anyone knows of other more “obscure” colleges that are good in psychology + art?</p>
<p>I do not know about the merit aid available, but there are some small private:
University of San Diego
University of San Francisco
Pepperdine (Malibu-SoCal)
Santa Clara University(Bay area)
Chapman University (in Orange County-SoCal) and really impressively moving up the list- two family members go there and get some sort of nice merit aid
Mills College (Bay area)
The whole Pomona/Harvey Mudd/etc consortium</p>
<p>Occidental College
College of the Redlands</p>
<p>Loyola in CA is also a good pick. Many of the catholic schools have excellent merit $$ packages.</p>
<p>us<em>uk</em>mom:</p>
<p>You're absolutely right about proximity facilitating cross-registration. D (Pomona '09) looked at both Amherst and Swat and made Pomona her #1 because the campuses are adjacent to one another. At both Amherst and Swat, bus/train travel is a necessity and commuting time does add up. Don't know if your D is interested in a single-sex school, but Wellesley College students can cross-register at MIT; there's an express bus that runs between the two schools every hour.</p>
<p>I'm generally a research-university fan, but I was thinking about this the other day. I went to a university that, at the time, was the center of the world in what I wanted to study. I showed up ready, talked my way into getting a world-famous professor to be my advisor, was given permission to audit a graduate course my second year, etc. Still, the number of actual advanced-level courses I took in my field was probably no more than 7-8, and I doubled up on some professors. If I had gone to a LAC, instead of having 30 people to choose from, maybe there would only have been 6 or 7, but I would have done exactly what I did at the university: I would have gotten interested in what the interesting teachers were teaching. I loved the education I got, but I have no doubt that I would have loved the education I would have gotten at a good LAC, too. I would have missed some relationships with graduate students that I valued, and I might not have heard quite so many talks by visitors, but the difference probably wouldn't have been as great as I sometimes imagine.</p>
<p>I go to Amherst and have taken 5-college courses. The bus system is great, very efficient and easy.</p>
<p>I can sort of second what JHS is saying. I ended up in a small department in a large college. I think I took almost half my courses in my major from one professor and wrote my thesis with him as well. They were also graduate level courses (arch. history at the School of Design), and I worked on a couple of projects with grad students, but really I could have had a similar experience at a smaller college.</p>
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<p>and Clark also has a strong international student body.</p>