@cypresspat Your son will be very busy with required engineering classes. If for some reason, he does not get into Honors -for electives, he can do some research (as he likes to do) and seek out interesting classes with more rigor or that seem to attract strong students.
As others have said, not all engineering kids are that interested in Honors. Neither of mine was, although invited to apply . Some kids prefer living/learning communities or other different housing options. Others, like my kids, preferred to just be in a regular dorm with kids from different majors. It’s all good. Every kid is different and will have different preferences.
Likewise, I’m not sure why it’s a bad thing to put cost for the parents first, with fit for the student being the tiebreaker among the schools that fit the parents’ budget. I believe her perfect fit would be MIT or Cal Tech, but I’m not going to sell our house or work 4 years past my planned retirement to make that so.
My example of the pretty trees was not directed at you personally, sorry if it came across that way. We know a student who fell in love with the aesthetics of a campus and their mommy and daddy wrote the check to allow her to go there, and then she picked a major from those that the school offered that sounded good to her (it’s the type of major that will get her a job at Starbucks). We also know another student whose #1 priority was the sorority, so sure enough she ended up going to a school based on the sorority (she lasted a year and a half!). In both cases, those schools were the best fit according to the student. I obviously disagree with their choices in these cases.
For some students, the right fit (location, size, urban vs. rural, honors vs. no honors…) is crucial and an absolute requirement. And that’s fine for them, especially when cost is not a concern. But as I said, that’s not the case for us - the right fit is important, but not the most important thing.
The problem is, it seems to me the only way to get past the point of cost considerations is to apply apply to as many schools as practical (not to be confused with as many schools as possible) and see what the schools offer. At that point, we’ll consider the best fit. Maybe she’ll get enough merit money to bring the cost at USC down to $15K - in that case USC probably wins the tiebreaker over the safe $15K schools of Kentucky or ASU. Maybe she doesn’t get any significant money at her better fit schools so it’s one of the safe schools she goes to, in which case I’m confident she’ll do just fine.
Too much snark here. Especially when money is the overriding priority there’s a big difference between a full tuition scholarship, a full tuition scholarship with housing allowance, and a full ride. This student is certainly competitive for some of those full rides even if the tippy top ones may be out of reach due to lack of leadership and similar ECs. It’s patronizing to suggest that someone whose primary selection criteria is price should just “go to Alabama (or wherever) and be done”. In addition, some auto merit schools may offer extras, whether additional (perhaps competitive) money in scholarships or better academics (perhaps including honors colleges, etc.) so there are still plenty of comparisons to be made.
So it’s now a question of seeing if any auto merit schools should be eliminated and prioritizing amongst competitive applications. I don’t know why that’s so hard to understand.
@cypresspat. I understand but not all honors are the same. In fact many are not what your seeking out either. You can get highly intellectual classes and conversation just from the regular class catalogs. Have him really take a look at those closely. My son goes to Michigan and my daughter goes to Beloit college. Couldn’t get more polar opposite. Both claim they are with students that are intellectually curious and challenge them on a daily basis. Both are second level thinkers, is what I call them. My daughters classes are mostly discussion based and she loves going deeper, per se.
He will also have to realize that even in honors not everyone will grasp the concepts. If he does quickly he should become a peer to peer tutor… Seriously.
He should also know that this is not high school. If someone is having problems that is why there are TA discussion groups, peer to peer tutoring, Professor office hours, math /science help labs etc etc.
Lastly engineering even the prerequisites are rough.
A patient of mine who is entering her second year at University of Iowa for engineering who had a 4.0, 34 Act and comes from a family of engineers, finished her first year with a 2.8. She told me. “Doc, first year engineering kicked my A$$”.
That pretty much sums it up… Lol ?
re: honors: – I think if kids have demanding majors, the non- studious kids are self weeded once the classes get harder. Neither my S15 nor his GF15 took honors at UNL although they had merit scholarships. Both worked hard, had good internships and now pull in close to $200K/yr together with no loans; not bad for being 22 and working 2 months! (ok; that’s my little humble brag. proud of them. and they loved their college.) we do know a kid who said any sort of marketing class that wasn’t honors was pud.
I hope we all know that any motivated student can turn any major into a successful career.
And frankly, if OP’s D decides engineering is not for her, which is a possibility already mentioned, one aspect of “fit” will be what opportunities are there for majors other than that at this school? Will she have to take more than 4 years if she switches majors? What is the support for internships and skills that will enhance the “non-engineering degree” job prospects? What is offered by the career center? Do they actively bring employers to campus for fairs or to their recruiting software? Are there workshops, lunches, career exploration programs? Is there funding for summer research or internships? What about the alumni network and the degree to which an undergrad student has access to it?
Those are IMO “fit” aspects of a school that are very important, beyond “pretty trees”. Especially for a student who thinks engineering but like many others, makes a different choice.
If you are having your DD do so many, wasting time here arguing is not a great use of time, I think you can be an effective executive assistant. Divide up your roles, have a shared calendar and email so you can be on top of timelines, have her share her online access for her applications. She has so much to do, but you can help as you have set up this crazy potential list. Due dates, sending test scores, housekeeping.
Off piste discussions are such a result of this new format BTW. It is collateral damage.
Re: cutting the list, once you decide for sure on the automatic merit schools (safe) that are definitely affordable and that she would be excited about, I would pick a few more (3-4?) match schools (very likely acceptance) where she might be competitive for significant merit. Then maybe choose 5 of the super reach schools where chance of acceptance (MIT, Stanford) is very low or chance of a big scholarship is very low (USC, Vanderbilt). See if she can complete very strong applications for those 5 and once complete, she could add some more super reach schools if she has the energy. To make the top 5 for the reach schools, I would somehow try to figure out which are the ones where she might have a better chance than others, where her story/background/strengths will make her most appealing as an applicant. That’s the tricky part.
My kid who majored in one of the “end up in Starbucks” type of majors was out-earning me within 5 years of graduating from college. So if we’re picking on snarky posts- that one wins IMHO. And engineers get downsized all the time (ask any aerospace engineer in the state of California circa mid 1990’s when everything shifted overseas, or petroleum engineers during the bust cycles of oil and gas, or the much loved on CC CS/EE engineers in the tech downturn after 2001.)
And for everyone who says that “at least medicine can’t be off-shored”- I’d like to introduce you to my radiologist who lives in Mumbai. A nice perk of the imaging center I go to that you can make an appointment from 6 am-10 pm AND get results while you wait. How do they do that? They have physicians in different time zones who read the films and decide “no follow up” or “needs follow up”.
For any parent who thinks that there is some golden ticket out there that ensures a nice lifestyle, never get laid off, good salary, no risk and that if they guide their kid to it (the right major, the right college, the right level of loans or no loans) I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
I try not to criticize other people’s choice of majors. Why? Because the most gifted CEO I ever worked for majored in Renaissance studies (he was truly a Renaissance man) and the most successful Chief Human Resources Officer I ever worked for was a sociology major.
@KevinFromOC , please stop with the rude and insulting comments! Wow! There are MANY parents on this thread whose children are in majors that, in your opinion, will get their kid a job at Starbucks. First of all, who are you to say what those majors are? Secondly, what is wrong with an honest job at Starbucks?
There are tens of thousands of successful people who have earned degrees in majors that are lowly compared to a super duper engineering degree.
I’m done with the condescending attitude. Good luck to your daughter, and I hope to goodness she doesn’t disappoint you by perhaps majoring in something other than what YOU think is the road to success.
Sincerely, Mom of a kid whose major is probably not worthy in your eyes.
Not every engineer slugs through impossibly hard classes or struggles with the material or speed of the courses. My daughter entered her engineering program with her just fine 3.8 hs gpa, hadn’t taken Calc, had no AP or DE credits. NONE. She is definitely the tortoise, just taking it step by step, and she studied on a schedule. She didn’t work while in school because she played a sport (about 20-30 hours a week), belonged to a sorority, had a boyfriend, had friends to spend time with. She did one 8 week summer engineering job where she made $10/hr. She worked for a professor her final semester and really liked that. I think if she regrets anything it is not working (for professors or in engineering jobs) MORE while she was in school and not having a big internship the summer between jr/sr year.
Yep, 8 straight semesters, 131 credits required and took every one of them at her campus. Got one C. Passed her FE exam. Applied for 6 jobs in the spring of her senior year, interviewed at one and took it at a salary she was very happy with.
OP is running this show and the way he wants to do this is to order the schools approximately in to what the DD wants the most and then picking all of those within categories that are preferred over the definitely affordable group. I don’t see a problem with doing it that way. As long as there is one affordable school, that meets the students criteria, it’s fine.
I would personally apply to all of the sure thing schools as they seem to be easy apps since one can change one’s mind over the next 9 months or so. If Kentucky suddenly doesn’t seem as attractive as New Mexico, for example, there is that choice. With free airline miles, there might be time to visit some of the choices if the daughter changes her mind about not caring if she checks out the places.
It’s entirely possible that some of these possibilities will fall by the wayside as the burden of more applications, visits, etc start confilcting with senior year life. You can always drop the process. My kids were really good at doing that. But at least get the ball rolling so that there are the options. Some of those apps should be out by now.
Right…who knows? If she really doesn’t care…then get the first batch of applications done…and call it a day after the first very affordable acceptance comes in.
But really…I doubt that this will happen…as those Ivies are on the list and they have deadline admission dates.
If the kid really didn’t care, the family would take the first full offer they got, and end application writing.
OP, it’s probably been mentioned somewhere above, but keep in mind that the reach schools Cal Tech and MIT ignore home equity, which is a significant consideration for you. Neither school is resource constrained, and either school might be worth stretching the budget… They might also be more inclined to take a second look at your finances based on your additional expenses for your older child.
OP’s daughter’s profile as a Hispanic female STEM with advanced math work, good standardized testing, but no significant science or math accomplishments or contest wins is tailor made for Caltech in my opinion. I know two current students there right now who fit that description (one was denied at MIT).
However, some people, including (potential) college students are not all that picky beyond baseline requirements (“is it affordable?”, “does it have the major that I want to study?” “can I get admitted or get the necessary-for-affordability scholarship?”). Such students may find good or at least acceptable fit at a wide range of colleges. Meanwhile, students who are very picky may not be able to find any acceptable fit within the range of colleges that meet baseline requirements.
It appears that the OP’s student is a less picky one.
One reason to be careful when considering colleges where students in first year engineering must earn a high GPA like 3.2 or 3.5 to get into their majors.
Just because a student isn’t picky doesn’t mean as parents we don’t want them to have options. My D was not picky and her requirements were very minimal. She had a very nice full ride in hand in October, was thrilled, and could have stopped. But I still made her complete the other applications. I’m sure she would have been very happy at that school. But she ultimately ended up elsewhere because she did have choices and found a slightly better fit. I don’t think anyone should be bashing OP for wanting his D to have options to evaluate in March/April.
@Knowsstuff Not sure why you felt I needed all of that information. I have a PhD in neuroscience so I am pretty familiar with getting one’s a$$ kicked by college classes. My s20 is my third to attend college.
My post was to add another reason (in the flow of posts at that time) that some prospective students want to be assured of a critical mass of fellow students who are equals, student achievement-wise. It isn’t always about the course being rigorous enough. And, rest assured that, just like in HS, slower students DO hold things up in college classes. Like the one I teach.
My S20 is actually repelled by many of the honors programs he has looked into. Attracted to others. The features, not the label, matter to him. And he will have to cope with frustrating moments in his college classes, regardless of where he goes, as will those who are forced to tolerate his slowness sometimes. But at this juncture of college decision time, any school which doesn’t signal a chance for him to assuage his intolerance for those who can’t seem to grasp what he views as simple, is X’ed off the list. I guess that it his definition of ‘fit.’ He would have taken a gap year or two to earn money instead of going to many of the schools oft repeated in this thread. Based on the real experience there? No, of course not. But based on his perception of who attends those schools. And, as they say, perception IS reality when it comes to these kinds of decisions. It has driven his choices so far, and unlikely he is alone.
He knows the academic caliber of about 1/4th of his HS class and as many of the class which just started college. He absolutely judges colleges based on which of those people are going to which college. He knows who he does and does not want to be in classes with when his turn arrives. The only real info he has right now is the lineup from his own HS. The 50,000,000 pieces of paper which came into this house over the summer don’t help with that. It is important to HIM, and he will be making his college decision, not his parents. He is fortunate that his choices are restricted only by the admissions depts. of the schools he applies to. He may be put in the ‘too slow for our classes’ pile; time will tell.