Looking for advice in Merit aid for a top 1% student

Paying for College
1041

@KevinFromOC , I forgot to mention my kids’ experiences with reaching out to a regional rep. I encouraged my son to get in touch with a regional rep for a college that had no info about interviews on their website. He emailed the regional rep, who got back to him and asked him if he wanted to arrange a time to Skype. So they Skyped and she asked him about his grades and test scores. She told him right during that interview that the college would probably offer him $20k a year. He ended up not applying there, sadly.

My daughter couldn’t find any info on a college website about when the college rep would be visiting the region, so she emailed the regional rep. The rep emailed her back and it turned out they had come to our area about a month before. My daughter was accepted with the biggest possible scholarship to that school .

Even if the college CDS doesn’t say they consider interest, I think there is nothing to be lost by contacting a rep.

1042

I agree with the above especially at smaller schools. Our high school told the students to make sure the “Regional” school rep knows you want to be there. So I tell kids to write a LOI Letter of Interest… A two line letter with a question and implied interest. If your deferred or wait listed then send a LOCI - Letter of continued Interest. This would’ve been now your second soft touch. Visiting the school. Talking at school /regional fairs, etc

Both my kids met with professors/departments of interests and cc’d the regional person on the thank you email.

Stating the meeting with a professor in the essay also.

Of course, there are those that apply at the last minute doing none of these things and get merit!!!

1043

This all sounds like it’s getting into the realm of schmoozing, which I know many people are very skilled at and it can help them get very far. Unfortunately that is a talent that my daughter (along with myself) has zero ability and zero confidence in.

Between the college’s website and the constant e-mails and snail-mail brochures she receives, it seems like all the important information is there, and I know to try to think of some questions that can’t be answered by the information she already has access to would cause a lot of stress for her.

I appreciate and understand what everyone is saying, but if that’s what it takes at some schools to maximize merit aid, then I’m worried that applying to 20-25 schools might not be enough if some percentage of them will hold it against her because they perceive that she hasn’t shown an interest.

1044

I’m not good at schmoozing either so the next best thing is honesty. If there’s one school she loves talk to that school. Her genuine interest will come out and be on display.

1045

There’s likely an element of confirmation bias here. My kids did none of these things even at schools which consider interest and were still admitted with significant (typically maximum) merit.

About the most they did at places like American (which is well known for rejecting overqualified applicants who they think will go elsewhere) is open the emails and view some of the videos they linked to. They certainly never emailed any admissions reps apart from thank you emails after interviews.

Just have your daughter focus on writing the best application she can. We found the best results (both for scholarships and admissions at competitive schools) came from writing an unusual essay that was memorable for the admissions committee.

1046

@KevinFromOC My s20 (very similar to you daughter, including hockey, but a solid notch lower on the achievement scale) thinks like your daughter does. He categorically rejected applying to colleges which clearly rely on interest (wait list almost everyone). In his words: ‘so, I work my tail off for four years to be top of my class and I have to kiss their ring for the right to pay them $70k a year? Don’t think so. Pass.’ Now…much easier for him to be so cavalier since the $ is not an issue for us. He wouldn’t be so dismissive, probably, and would have kissed rings to go where he wanted if that is what it took. But he would have really resented it. He wants to be noticed for his academic achievements, Period. A college which doesn’t value that primarily just isn’t for him. Again…he isn’t seeking financial aid. Different situation, but similar flavor of kid.

1047

Here’s the thing, every kid’s safety school is another kids dream school (although we advise against kids having dream schools). Throw a money in it and the whole dynamic changes.

Colleges want students who want them. It is not about kissing the ring or schmoozing. there is a lot of work being done on both ends.

In the big scheme of things you are putting in $70 for a 35-40K return, which is not a bad investment of your $70 for something if all she did was fill out an application and wait for the money to come in. If on face, your daughter’s application looks like a slam dunk for the type of student they should be admitting (and it does), and she hasn’t expressed interest, it is going to come across as just what it is; you are tossing your $70, for what you think is a slam dunk and money that they should just give her because she is a great kid (which she is). In the land of great kids, there are students who are letting the schools That this is their first choice, showing love and letting the school know that if admitted, they are definitely attending. Guess who is getting the nod?

For the moment, you D is good with the college, knowing that she has racked up the win and the money until something better comes along and she is going with that (the school knows this too). The school will also know that they are not her bae, and she is using them as the side person.

While other kids may not have had to do this in the past, the admissions landscape can change drastically from one year to the next. Nothing tops the institutional mission, which also changes from year to year.

1048

@KevinFromOC your daughter has a few schools on her list where significant merit is on the line. As you mentioned earlier, she needs significant merit.

Do any of these schools do local visits? If yes, your daughter should meet with them. If she can’t find any information on the website about local visits, she can email her local rep and ask. That would be a way for her to show interest…and it’s not really “shmoozing.” It’s really just asking a simple question.

FYI …she may be able to interview with the more competitive schools if she wants…such as Vanderbilt. These interviews will require way more time, “shmoozing,” ability to converse, etc…than a simple email to Alabama. Will she pursue any of these? Interviews alone won’t get her accepted…they are a way for her to learn more about the school etc.

1049

@KevinFromOC I’m not good at schmoozing nor was my D. But schmoozing worked during my college admissions season back in the day and it still works today. My D had excellent stats and a stand out application, but so did lots of other students. She was an Ivy level applicant with a hook, like your D, trying to win a full ride from schools well below top 20. That can scream safety to colleges. When you’re trying to snag a $200k scholarship, sometimes more is needed. It also helped her learn a lot about the schools under consideration.

For one school, she emailed her regional rep spring of junior year. He took us out for ice cream in the summer and invited her for a paid campus visit in the fall. When we went for the visit, which was a full day personal tour that the rep coordinated, during lunch the admissions counselor surprised her with a bag of swag that had a certificate presenting her with a full ride scholarship in it. And the admission rep told me that the regional rep had set the ball in motion during the summer after meeting us. My D and that regional rep kept in touch the rest of the year - coffee a couple of times and regular check in emails. My D had similar experiences and relationships with a number of other reps. Remember the surprise full ride at MSU? My D never got to meet the rep in person, but they chatted on the phone and emailed a number of times. For one school, we skipped the regional rep and she developed a relationship with a dean (someone on CC made the introduction - yes, there are admissions reps and college admin lurking on CC).

One of the things we learned at the end of the admissions season was that regional reps know each other and talk. The ones she had developed a relationship with all knew they were competing for the same student. That was to her benefit.

That’s the back story of how my D was invited to 10+ competitive full ride competitions that had sub 5% invitations and won 7 full rides and a number of full tuition+ scholarships. It was a lot of effort, but worth it and paid off. Her networking skills improved tremendously through this process, which was a bonus.

Your D can still do some of this and you can help. Particularly for the ones with spring scholarship weekends, there is plenty of time.

1050

@sybbie719 There is one college, a moderately selective one, which has had 18 applicants from my son’s HS (per Naviance) in the past 5 years. Students’ scores had quite a range. 2 were accepted. 16 were wait listed. None rejected. In my son’s eyes, it made the school look lazy - not like they were working hard at all, actually. On paper, that school was a decent fit for my S20, but he rejected it for that reason. Off the list immediately. If they can’t be bothered to sift through apps to at least reject students who should be rejected, what else are they lazy about?

Is he wrong with that conclusion? Maybe. But he isn’t the only high stats kid from our HS (which limits apps to 10) who drew that conclusion. An app for a kid from our HS is expressing interest because each app has to count. For Most kids, each app is quite carefully selected.

If colleges really cared about ‘fit’ and the perfect combination of individuals for their community, there are many things they could do better to ensure that. If they don’t, then this practice is all about yield control and their own brand protection. They are putting additional onus on applicants and it doesn’t make them look special. (For the record, I have communicated my son’s reaction to our Naviance history for this school to the admissions department and assistant coach who came to watch a state play-off game this Fall).

The OP’s daughter is very special. She is applying to colleges - supposedly educational institutions. Her being able to win a full scholarship anywhere at all shows how special she is. She is the consumer here, paying with her time and commitment if not her $. There are 3,500+ colleges in the US. Any college which gets an app has received plenty of interest. Their getting their heads turned by a kid who sends an email and asks questions makes them look pretty easily-swayed, if you ask me.

The stakes for my son in choosing to not play that game were low; he’s a high stats, full-pay kid who was repelled by any attempt at all to communicate elitism during his college visits. As he said, ‘it is just college; they need to get over themselves.’ The OP’s daughter is not as fortunate to be able to think that way and I get that. But she is a rarer and more special kid than mine, and if the ‘system’ rewards something as superficial and easily-faked as showing interest, then the system is broken.

My S20 doesn’t want HIS ring kissed, either. He wants to be judged by his academic achievements within the context that he achieved them (his EC’s). He wants that and the words from his teachers and GC to be used to judge him, not things which can easily be faked (interest and essays can be out-sourced). Too many identical applicants, they say? Then flip a coin; don’t rely on something stupid like sending emails, opening emails, clicking on links and liking FB pages. It cheapens the process and the colleges which over-rely on it. At least be honest and stop spouting nonsense about their careful ‘holistic’ selection process if in reality a robot can be used to push a kid over your line.

1051

Kevin, maybe I misread what you just wrote, but if your daughter isn’t good at “schmoozing” as you call it, well, she’s going to have to learn at some point that she’d better get over it. She will have to learn how to talk to people in order to get what she wants, whether it’s a professor recommendation or a job interview. Now is a very good time to start, especially when reps and interviewers know that teens are young and inexperienced.

My kid was super shy. Hated being forced to talk to strangers in any situation. HATED every college interview I forced her to do, because you bet she didn’t do any of them voluntarily. Thank god she did those interviews, because she got into most of the 12 she applied to, and four years later has been offered her first post grad job with an amazing salary and perks.

Yes, there is probably confirmation bias in some of our stories. I think the point is that making the effort certainly doesn’t hurt.

Are you saying she had better fill out even MORE applications, in the hopes that some colleges won’t care about interest but will give her big bucks anyway? They might. Might not. It’s possible she’ll get big money at a college that claims not to consider interest. But wow, what’s the trade off here? Can she waste time (and money) filling out still more apps, or waste the same amount of time showing some interest? I’d love to know her thoughts on this.

Again, look at section C7 of the Common Data set of each college. If they consider interest, frankly, it’s unwise not to make an effort to show some interest. She needs the money, she has to make the effort, like it or not. We all have to do things we don’t want to do, and surely sending a few emails isn’t that bad.

1052

@cypresspat sure, the system is broken, but the OP needs the money. “Protesting” the system by deciding not to play is the same as not telling a bad restaurant why you’re never coming back: they won’t know and won’t care. Yeah, colleges would prefer to give the money to the kid they think will matriculate, bottom line.

1053

The merit aid at Arizona and Alabama guaranteed, automatic. She doesn’t need to schmooze there.

She WILL need to put her best foot forward if she is selected to interview for any of the highly competitive scholarships at some of these schools. For example, I believe the full ride at South Carolina requires an interview. Some of the other scholarships there don’t.

1054

Call it what you want, but learning how to stand out from a crowd is important to many schools in this process. Sorry, but it is what it is. If the OP’s daughter doesn’t feel skilled at this, I agree (a) she should learn (she is obviously bright and can learn) and (b) she should call upon the counselors at her NE private school to reach out to the adcomms on her behalf. Thats a great benefit of attending one of those schools, and commonly the adcomms have a relationship with the counselors at these schools, so the “schmoozing” can be done counselor to counselor , and I expect, in this case, will be.

1055

When the system doesn’t work either work to fix it: Or, figure out how to work the system. Saying that it’s silly to express interest or schmooze doesn’t put a checked box next to your kid’s name.
Colleges are a business. Sadly, yes, but it has been this way for a long time. They will accept and “gift”( scholarships and merits are gifts) to the kids they think will make them more successful over the long term. Many will consider the kids leadership skills, why? This can translate into better jobs and long term financial prospects.
Our kids have seen us ( both entrepreneurs) who have to schmooze to get business which is the $$ that feeds our life. Do we want to socialize and follow up on sales leads?Meet people for lunch? No, we don’t but those who don’t are likely not going to have successful businesses.
When my oldest was applying to boarding schools, we found out late in the process from a family friends that you have to attend the social events and express interest to get in. Is it different with large colleges of course. But two kids who are roughly equal and one has expressed a strong interest isn’t even a close race. Not to mention, the scholarship weekends are going to have tons of kids who are superb. The kid who really knows that school is going to win that award. Think of it as enthusiasm rather than schmoozing.
And OP, you can easily find a question to ask a regional AO, that isn’t on the web site.
Yes, if your high stats kids are applying to schools which are super easy for them, great.

1056

Kids whose parents can be full pay have the luxury of selectively choosing which recommendations to follow. They can show interest, or not. They can visit, send letters of interest, contact department chairs and regional reps, or they can choose to do none of those things and let the chips fall where they may. I don’t think Kevin’s family is in that position.

College admissions isn’t a game, it’s business. You wouldn’t apply to a job without showing some interest, following up on your application, and going to any local recruitment fairs the company might offer. I think anyone who’s seriously interested in a college that considers interest should do what they can to show some.

1057

Maybe it would help @KevinFromOC if some of you spoke more specifically about which schools on the list need his D to show some interest. If you’re not comfortable telling your own stories about these schools publicly, then maybe PM him.

@KevinFromOC schools with auto merit don’t need to be shown the love. It’s the elite private schools on the list that may need attention. Some more than others.

1058

I totally agree with @Lindagaf and was about to say something similar. Schmoozing is a necessary life skill. Those soft people skills are what get engineers their internships/co-ops and ultimately jobs.

My D was TERRIBLE at it in HS. Painfully awful. We did mock “interviews” to help her get ready (and sent her to our neighbors to practice with them) and then in college, she met with the career center in her first week to work on her “elevator pitch.”

We also encouraged her to reach out herself - thank you notes for all interviews and prof meetings, and she did reach out to the regional rep of her top choice and made sure they felt the love. (Conversely, she refused to reach out to the other schools; admissions folks because she didn’t want to be dishonest).

1059

Wow… Guess I shouldn’t sleep… Lol… Glad I brought this up. It’s a topic in itself.

We taught our kids in life sometimes you have to “bet” on yourself. Go outside your comfort zone. Everything discussed is just a few simple ways to do it. Especially at Lacs. They all know what’s going on there especially if they have interest in you. A good friend of mine that teaches at UChicago and helps students write essays suggest looking at college catalogs of classes and mentioning that in a simple single line in the essay.

The OP daughter doesn’t have to do anything. But just know that many of her competitors are. Yes it’s a business, yes it’s a game that you just need to know how to play. I think showing interest is part of maturity. As someone said putting her best foot forward. Putting yourself in the best light.

It’s funny that the school that my son put the most effort in, is where he landed. Same with my daughter.

1060

@homerdog -To be perfectly honest, many kind and generous CC’ers have already told the OP how/where to find this information. He and his DD are bright and don’t really need that degree of hand-holding. Its pretty clear that many of the big state U’s and Elites don’t pay attention to demonstrated interest, but for many small schools and the big additional scholarships, yes it’s important.

As is “likeability”. If, through essays, face-to face meetings, emails, facetime chats, phonecalls, or what have you, its important for the applicant to be “likeable”. I tell my students to imagine that the adcomm/reader/interviewer is thinking “would i want this person as my roommate?” So come across as interesting, smart, fun, clever, charming, or otherwise likeable- not cocky, dull or otherwise uninteresting or unlikeable. Its pretty obvious, IMO, but bears repeating sometimes.