This is the point many are making. There is showing interest to bolster one’s application for admission and showing interest to bolster one’s chances of receiving non-automatic merit aid. I have given an example up thread of my daughter showing interest in Stevens, which is on OP’s daughter’s list. While I can not know for certain that showing interest helped my DD receive Stevens’ highest merit award, I believe in my heart that it did. Think about it for a second. An applicant requires merit aid to be able to attend a college, but thinks it “schmoozing” to show even the slightest of interest in the institution bestowing the merit?
As I said up thread, since OP’s daughter is applying to so many schools, managing these numerous apps and showing interest beyond her submitted application will be onerous for sure. It is a lot of work. My daughter made sure she demonstrated interest to the colleges that awarded big non-auto merit, regardless of whether or not these colleges tracked interest. Whether or not it made a difference at all the colleges that awarded her significant merit aid, I do not know. All I can say is that merit was important to her and she was leaving no stone unturned in her quest for it. She felt it was a very small price to pay to potentially earn $50k plus per year in free money. My DD’s plan worked out very well for her.
This student goes to school on the east coast, family lives on the west coast. That makes things more complicated.
I think this student has time constraints, given her academic and sports schedule. We also don’t know her… does she have the drive, motivation, interest, etc to complete all of these apps? This is a ton of work.
That’s why I asked what the student wants. What is important to her? Will she be happy once the first affordable school comes in? Does she want what dad wants?
I think making a favorable impression on whoever is advocating for you , whether it’s admissions or merit money certainly can help when there is any judgement in the equation.
However, merit money is often used, maybe mostly used to lure those a school wants that are not so very interested. I know that those who apply ED often are at disadvantage for merit money. Yes, there are programs that include ED accepted students in giving merit money but often that money is used to buy students, not to rewards those already sold.
Yes, and she’s fine with interviews. She had to do one for each prep school she applied to 3 years ago, and every one accepted her. She’s talked to countless college hockey coaches, and has even had private discussions with several. I have no doubt that she will shine in an interview, as long as they aren’t looking for someone who is always super excited about everything and brings pom-poms along with her.
It’s the “cold-calling” (or perhaps more applicably “cold-emailing”) aspect
and trying to think of questions that aren’t already answered in the information she has access to just for the sake of “showing interest” that would be a problem. She has researched all of the colleges she’s applying to and really has no questions to ask. She’s very uncomfortable with schmoozing with someone she doesn’t know especially when she has to initiate the contact. She’d make a horrible used car salesman!
@cypresspat - I think you need to be careful in this kind of comment:
"The stakes for my son in choosing to not play that game were low; he’s a high stats, full-pay kid who was repelled by any attempt at all to communicate elitism during his college visits. As he said, ‘it is just college; they need to get over themselves.’ "
You don’t want your son to come across as having the attitude that since his parents have money, he need not make any effort to be pleasant or communicative to other people.
I think colleges indeed see through what you called “ring kissing”. But why wouldn’t they prioritize attracting students who care enough to reach out, learn about the college, and express considered interest appropriately?
"You indicated on your Barrett, the Honors College application that you are a National Hispanic Scholar awardee. We did not receive your name on the list of awardees. Can you please send me verification of your award? You can send an image of your certificate, award letter, or both.
Once received, I will add you to our National Scholar cohort at ASU, which makes you eligible for expedited review for Barrett, The Honors College as well as our National Scholar merit award."
Naturally she replied with a scan of her award letter and certificate, but it’s somewhat concerning that she’s not on their “list of awardees” that is apparently sent out to all the colleges…
Regarding ASU it is indeed surprising that her name was not on the list of NHRP awardees. Maybe this is due to using different addresses (e.g. home address in California vs boarding school address in Massachusetts) or slightly different names (e.g. full legal name vs shortened nickname)? I assume this will be a non-issue, and that ASU will send her the invitation to visit that you wrote she has not yet received once they rectify the issue. I remember that my son had to send a copy of his certificate to U Kentucky so somehow sometimes the universities have a hard time matching an applicant name to a name on a list (and in our case the matching should have been straightforward).
Now, my wife and I just came back from spending a few days at ASU Tempe for “family weekend” and we are very pleased that our son decided to go there. He seems very happy. He likes most of his classes. He made a lot of friends that all seem to be great kids. The campus is beautiful. The food at the Honors cafeteria is good. The public transportation network is terrific.
Well there you are. A perfect reason for her to reach out to her adcomms telling them it has come to her attention that her name may have been inadvertently omitted from the list of National Hispanic Scholars Program and she is attaching a copy of her certificate. Think of it as a gift
Perhaps indeed! This would be an honest and sincere reason for reaching out.
I’m just afraid that adcomms would see straight through an insincere question and/or contact asked just for the sake of trying to demonstrate interest.
@KevinFromOC Step back for just a moment and take a breath. What you are saying right now is that your daughter has absolutely no questions about any of the schools she wants to attend (and needs merit aid to do so) and she was able to get absolutely all of her questions answered via the school websites. I call shenanigans on this, or seriously question how curious your daughter is about any of the schools on her list.
I do research all day long. Without false modesty, I am exceptionally good at research and while helping my daughter with her college search and selection - there were plenty of times that I (an adult with 30 years research experience, graduated from a top 5 school) had questions about information I (and/or my daughter) found on college websites. For every college she was interested in that we did the slightest bit of research about.
None of those questions had answers to be found on the college websites (or [insert college name] professor blogs, student blogs or even the college confidential archives)…often my daughter/I/we had specific questions about how a program actually worked (so we could compare to other colleges with similar programs), or we used contact info found on the college website to ask a clarifying question (about academic programs, fields of study, overnight opportunities, study abroad programs, honors application supplements, etc) or used the college website as a jumping off point to do further research before regional rep. interviews (so that she could get more than just the “surface answers” during those interviews). And every time my daughter reached out to get further information from the adcoms, that led to a deeper conversation. Sometimes, the adcoms would link her to a professor or student they thought was a good connection to get further info (which she always followed up on, often leading to more conversations). Sometimes the adcoms could answer the first question but also asked follow up questions of my daughter that my daughter hadn’t even known to ask about before she made the first contact which led to several ongoing conversations she had while figuring out which colleges she was applying to.
Those questions and follow-ups helped inordinately with honing her (fairly short) application list, as well as making her decision to apply ED to her top choice (with a financial pre-read that made it clear it would work for us as a full pay family looking for merit) a fairly easy one. It also meant that when she visited her first choice college, the entire visit had been curated by the school to center around her specific academic and extra-curricular interests in a way that made her leave that visit 100% convinced she had chosen the right school and that the school was the right one to get her where she wanted to go (long terms goals), as well as new contacts (students and professors) to help her transition to college next fall.
None of this was schmoozing or cheerleading (not my daughter’s personality at all). It was sincere interest in the schools and programs she thought she wanted to pursue and her curiosity about how those programs would look if she were in them. At each school she looked at in any depth, ‘secret’ pathways were revealed (for extra money, prestigious internships or research opportunities, even how to navigate the housing system for best advantage), contacts were developed that gave us ‘insider insight’ to how to navigate certain processes/programs (and who to contact for even more knowledge), and which schools were better (or worse) fits for her were made clear.
@fretfulmother I appreciate your feedback, but with all due respect, to be honest, I am not at all concerned about how son comes across here. And I would have to really, REALLY go out of my way to come up with an example to articulate any behavior by him even remotely like as you fear. He has elected to apply to his state flagship only, for a couple of reasons, one being he can’t live with his parents paying more for him than we did his siblings. He’s not perfect, but entitled, he is not.
My point was, and remains, that if it meant not being able to go to college at all, my son’s refusal to ‘play the expressing interest game’ would likely change. His attitude is driven by a reality which he is fully aware of. Doesn’t mean he feels entitled to that position, nor does it mean he is aloof or uncommunicative to those involved in his college investigations. It means he is repelled by the notion of having to make up questions he already has the answers to or clicking on links in emails to a whole bunch of colleges to signal to them that each and every one of them is THE ONE. That would feel disingenuous to him. Because…it is!
Totally agree that people have to do what they have to do. And sometimes, they don’t. So, he isn’t. And I do know a few kids who really, really have a certain school in mind and are able to express genuine interest in going to their own actual THE ONE. But, mostly his friends and teammates are expressing love and complete loyalty to 10 different schools.
Naturally college staff are aware of this. If hearing from any particular candidate directly moves him or her to the front of the line, it is a good guess it isn’t because strong interest is assumed.
Can someone please link the (hilarious) NPR podcast about college admissions. IIRC, an adcom from GA Tech or maybe it was UGA spoke, and really he was a riot. He talked quite a bit about expressing interest…and some “mistakes” inadvertently made by some families. Well worth listening to.
Another one was more recent…it was interviews with current students at one or more of the Ivy League schools. They were asked to tell why they thought they got admitted…spoiler…they didn’t know.
Yes! Both of those podcasts are well worth the listening. I think Rick Clark hit some pretty high points in terms of expressing interest in particular. Very candid and entertaining. He sounds like he has seen it all.
I should add, I needed to pull my car over to the side of the road because this was so entertaining. I believe there are several sections. Listen to them all.
And the second podcast of those accepted students. Just let’s you know…even the students couldn’t articulate the thing that made them stand out amongst all the talented applicants at their elite schools.
@beebee3
Maybe that is the difference - my daughter is not very curious about the specifics of any one school. They will have classrooms. They will have chemical engineering classes. They will have labs. They obviously have a program in place that works, but knowing the details of exactly how they implement the program isn’t too important. It doesn’t matter to her the nuances of how Pitt vs Rice vs ASU run their chemical engineering program. I believe that my daughter feels she will have no problem adapting to any school’s program (and I certainly believe that too). I don’t think she has any interest in studying abroad.
And it seems like all merit scholarships, with requirements and deadlines, are listed on their websites. If schools have a secret menu of merit aid that you have to get chummy with someone there to find out about, then we’re in trouble (and perhaps we are).
Just about the only sway she’s had so far on any of the colleges on her list is that, after applying, she found out that ASU has a reputation of being a big party school, and that has now somewhat reduced her interest in ASU. That would be a difficult question (at this point in the process) to ask an ASU representative about.
Now maybe when we get the final price tags and only focus on those schools that are affordable then things may change and those items you discussed will become more important, but right now those things are low on the priority list.
Perhaps this lack of passion for any one particular school’s program will doom her and she’ll be living at home commuting to UCI. That’s a very real possibility!
Anyway, this is why I am leery of having her contact someone from admissions with an insincere question. But, I do see that there is great value in establishing such a connection, so maybe she can initiate contact with a generic “is there anything else needed” question and mention the NHRP issue. I could see them thinking “who is this kid and why is she bothering me?” (like asking a question of the DMV) or maybe they will look at her application and see that she’s a top applicant and open a genuine dialog.
The great benefit to my kid that arose from showing interest was that she actually learned MORE about the colleges and that knowledge assisted her in making her final decision. Like OP’s kid, my DD did not have a clear favorite going in to the process.
OP, as has been addressed by others up thread, there are many ways to demonstrate interest besides emailing AO’s. If any colleges of interest have presentations at your daughter’s boarding school, she could attend those as her schedule permits. She can sign up on the college email list. If there is an information session that a particular college is hosting nearby to your daughter’s school, perhaps she can UBER there. I realize she is on the East coast and you are on the West, so you can’t just take her to info sessions yourself.
My daughter attended a local info session for a college that had not initially been on her radar at all (it was a mom-pick). After attending that session, she learned a lot about the school, and the college rose to be one of her top three choices.
@homerdog was suggesting that we give you examples of what our kids did to show interest. I gave you the Stevens example, which involved more than sending an email. I’ll give you another. For Vandy, DD attended a local info session, signed up for emails, and did reach out to her AO with questions. She did not interview. She worked hard on her CV merit essay. She familiarized herself with the school enough such that she could ask good questions. She ended up a CV scholar. In terms of her CV merit application, I think the the time she took to really understand what Vandy had to offer and to ascertain if it would be a good fit for her, had to have helped her in some way–even if in just demonstrating to Vandy that it was one of her top choices.
So, I think OP is missing the point. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that an applicant ask stupid questions just for the sake of showing interest. There is nothing to “see through” when an applicant asks a genuine question of an AO. What I am saying is that by spending some time taking a closer look at the schools, especially the ones offering the big merit, OP’s daughter may actually learn more about these schools and may actually generate a sincere question or two. And the info she uncovers may help inform her decision as to where she wants to go. And her interest may convey those who hold the merit purse strings, that she actually may attend if offered their largest merit award.
