Looking for advice in Merit aid for a top 1% student

Princeton would be fine if it was in the price point for this family. It’s not.

There are plenty of opportunities at South Carolina…and the McNair full ride isn’t just about the money. Those McNair scholars have a number of other very worthwhile perks.

And for the record, South Carolina has a highly regarded business program, and many well placed graduates in very prominent well known national businesses.

Lots of opportunity there…as well as at Miami (Ohio).

I don’t advocate RH for the reasons you mention…it’s really engineering engineering and more engineering, with precious little in terms of even exploring courses outside of the engineering major.

Princeton is a great school…one of the best…but it’s not affordable for this family.

This student will have plenty of opportunities at USC, including the ability to possibly shine…which should not be ignored.

Princeton doesn’t come with a guarantee, despite being one of the best. I know several recent Ivy League grads, and none of them are doing anything so out of the ordinary compared to others. One of them needed assistance from family friends to get an internship …and a job.

I understand the desire to attend a school such as Princeton, but it has to be affordable. And…nothing gets handed to anybody…you have to put yourself out there.

There are plenty of opportunities at USC if this student changes her major.

Top students who take advantage of opportunities will succeed…wherever they are.

I’m confused by your tone, here, @Mom2aphysicsgeek, as well as the resort to straw man argumentation. The difference being discussed is not $120,000 vs. 0 as you put it, but $88K vs. $114K, since OP was considering approving JHU as a financially feasible option for D20 to consider, but not Princeton, as @Cleodx pointed out in post #1430.

Recall from that post: “On the financial front:
If you consider paying for JHU at 22k/y your daughter can take a loan and pay for Princeton at 28.5k/y.”

The $27K difference between JHU and Princeton over 4 years could be eliminated if D20 takes out federal loans if SHE believes a Princeton education is worth it to her or by availing herself to work opportunities that may materialize through Princeton, options that @Cleodx carefully detailed. It would not even require OP to kick in more than he was considering doing if he allowed JHU to be considered financially viable.

Given that OP has indicated that he found @Cleodx’s #1430 post to which I was responding (as well a my own at #1431) to be “Helpful,” I don’t know why posters on this board/thread would seek to diminish the range of thoughtful input on the topic. I always knew that there was a “spend as little as possible for college” bias to CC, but I don’t think discouraging heterodox views serves OP best. I respect where you are coming from on the substantive point of seeking the lowest cost for college, but the policing of views that accompanies that general normative stance on these boards lends to the “emperor’s new clothes”/breaking-of-silence moment I was experiencing when reading @Cleodx’s post #1430.

@CollegeOdyssey2001 OP and his daughter have already stated they felt they could not justify the cost of either Princeton or JHU.

@CollegeOdyssey2001 If you read this thread from the beginning, you would see that @KevinFromOC stated that $15,000 was his maximum. They ended up rejecting JHU from serious consideration b/c of the costs.

USC is free.

So to start discussing Princeton in terms of “inconceivable” is completely deaf to the OP’s financial reality which already recognized JHU as financially too expensive.

Hi @Mom2aphysicsgeek. I’m wondering why you think I have not read this thread from the beginning? I have, in large part because I am fascinated by which threads are most popular like this one, @HKimPOSSIBLE and @Momof2girlsandafrenchie and which ones are similarly compelling but are not (See, e.g., @EconPop’s excellent thread, that he sadly requested to be closed http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/2175565-the-journey-avg-stats-kid-who-needs-big-finaid.html#latest).

If my comment was “completely deaf to OP’s financial reality,” I wonder why he considered it “Helpful”? Rest assured that your view is well represented and the dominant norm. It is my hope for those who come to this board for assistance or to share less orthodox views that they will benefit from the diversity of views that exist on this board.

Given the current economic uncertainties, I would not encourage anyone to stretch their finances or take on debt. Not to mention, it is very likely that Princeton, among other colleges, will remain online next semester.

I think the OP’s daughter is exceptionally fortunate to have affordable choices, and I’m sure a student with her credentials can shine wherever she chooses.

Yeah, I’ve thought many times recently if we are crazy to turn down Princeton, JHU, USC, Vanderbilt, UCLA, … for, say, South Carolina. I’m sure such a thing is unheard of to most of her prep school friends (and probably several teachers). I’ve also wondered just how much better a Princeton education vs. a South Carolina Honors education really is. I definitely think there is a big difference in perception, which could be important for grad school or employers, but I’m not so sure how much actual difference there is.

She is definitely going into engineering/science - she may change from chemical to some other type of engineering, but it will most likely stay in that genre.

We could swing Princeton if need be - I could borrow from my 401K or refinance the house and take extra out, and have my daughter take on some student loans. But I’m not so sure it’s worth it to put off retirement by several years and have her graduate with significant student debt.

She seems absolutely fine with turning down those prestigious schools for a less prestigious one, but then again she is very easy going (sometimes too easy going). Two years ago I thought there was no way she would NOT go to a big name super fancy school, but given what I’ve learned since then (much of which came from here on CC), and of course after seeing the real costs, I’m more than fine with any of her 3 current contenders - Miami, Rose Hulman, or UofSC. They all appear to have great programs and have all made it clear that they want her there. And these schools seem very down to earth with several intangibles that we both like, such as not having a lot of politically driven drama/shenanigans .

Had Princeton’s financial aid office been as willing and eager to work with us as JHU was, then I might be singing a different tune. But as it is, I am very turned off by them given their unhelpful and in my opinion somewhat curt e-mails. I just get the feeling that they are saying “We’re Princeton. We don’t care if you can’t afford us - you should be happy with our offer - take it or leave it. Now don’t bother us again unless you can provide verifiable notarized proof of expenses filed in triplicate.” (OK, that was a little dramatic, but you get the picture).

Thank you @KevinFromOC .

Clearly you are thinking the finances of this plus the actual college experience. Your daughter is bright and will thrive wherever she goes.

You know I’m voting for the McNair at USC. If my kid had gotten that scholarship, she would most definitely have attended that school (also Engineering).

Comparing academic content requires a subject matter expert to evaluate curriculum, courses, and syllabi. Because of the need for a subject matter expert and the laborious nature of the task if one wants to go beyond just the list of courses required and offered, most people on the forums tend to ignore that, or hand-wave it with assumptions that more selective or prestigious colleges are better.

PhD program departments may have better knowledge in this area, but they typically do not say publicly which college’s department they consider better at preparing students for PhD study.

In most kinds of engineering, the range of quality of academic content tends to be narrower, because of the relatively high minimum standard set by ABET accreditation.

The experiential aspect (e.g. in-person versus distance education, class size, etc.) tends to get more commentary on these forums; some students may be more or less affected by these differences than others. The forced shift to distance education has led to a lot of forum chatter from those who resent the idea of paying a premium for the in-person residential experience and not getting it.

Odd that OP chose to find the money (and appreciated a qualitative difference) for boarding school, when compared to free public high school, but not for college, but people make their choices. I am certain the student will do fine anywhere.

As I have mentioned in the past, I have a friend/colleague whose son turned down Harvard for a Stamps scholarship at a State U. He went on the Stanford grad school. He met his wife as an undergrad at the state U. They are both very successfully employed in SV. They didn’t need a “name brand” undergraduate degree. And neither have an engineering degree.

Prestige and fit are great, great concepts, if, IF they are affordable. In today’s climate, thats a big IF. As hard as it is to turn down the prestige window decal, it is often the very wise choice. Just google “turned down Harvard…” and lots of examples pop up.

As I’ve also mentioned previously, I attended a presentation several years ago given by the FA Director at U Miami (FL, not Miami U). His background was from the tax/investment private sector, and he was discussing the school’s shift away from merit and more towards need based aid. He said, basically “We know how to read a tax return. Don’t ask us for more money. If you don’t like the award we gave you, the person next in line behind you will”. It was terse, but clear. And it sounds like what Princeton said to the OP here. There is no reason for Princeton to continue to throw money at a student (unless there is something REALLY specifically desirable about that student) . Nothing personal- they just don’t need to. There are plenty of other students in line who want to attend.

There is no reason to ask for another round of professinal judgment at Princeton unless something drastic changes, and to be honest, lots of people these days will have drastic changes in their financial situation. So, @KevinFromOC has wisely moved on. His daughter is fortunate to have such good choices remaining.

Would love to hear what SHE thinks about her choices and if she has spoken to students who have been recipients of the awards/programs to which she has been accepted.

@KevinFromOC, from your post #1371, you said…

"It took awhile, but they [JHU] finally got back to me, and I had a very nice half hour conversation with them on the phone. The representative told me that they view our situation as a special exception, and determined that as long as D2 was either taking college classes or in the rehabilitation program and was financially dependent on us, that they would consider her to have a “comparable college career” and would not reduce our financial aid offer because of it. Wow, that was pretty decent of them! She then went on to ask me other questions, looking for ways to justify increasing our financial aid even more. She also offered that JHU would probably be able to match any other financial aid offer from any other school. The representative seemed sincerely interested in helping us as much as she could.

Princeton, on the other hand… Their initial financial aid offer gave us a tuition, room, & board cost of $28.5K, which was significantly higher than what their NPC gave us. I therefore sent them an e-mail asking about the discrepancy. It also took a while, but they finally got back to me and explained that based on the information we gave them they determined that D2 would not have any educational expenses. I replied explaining the current situation with D2, and that she would indeed not be attending college full time. They responded with just 2 sentences, the first of which was “At this point in time, there will not be any adjustments to D1’s financial aid.”, and the second said to let them know if D2 incurs any educational expenses and they will look at D1’s FA again.
I interpret this as “That’s our offer, take it or leave it, and don’t bother us with anything else”. It was a totally different tone than that of JHU."

You’ve displayed an incredibly sturdy ego throughout this thread and process, accepting and responding to all kinds of comments and inquiries that many others would not have (hence, the popularity of this thread). Therefore, I am surprised that you allowed personal pique at one nameless, faceless, likely overworked and underpaid Princeton bureaucrat who answered your email inquiry about your NPC discrepancy to deter you from your due diligence at seeking the best possible merit and FA at each finalist school. Note that this reply is consistent with Princeton seeking to deliver the best FA to all without merit awards. And it makes sense that if you filled out the NPC with two in college, but it was later determined there was only one because there were no expenses incurred for #2, then that is a totally legitimate explanation consistent with Princeton’s FA principles. However, you should have pushed them further, and this is where you allowed your D’s relative “full court press” recruitment by schools in a significantly less competitive category to affect your analysis. I do not understand why you did not do what you’ve done throughout this thread–set your ego aside to keep your eyes on the prize of seeking the best possible value for your daughter’s education. I don’t think you’ve done that to date with Princeton. And I think the direction you took here may have been unduly influenced by the CC’s general disposition that tends to value lowest possible cost vs. highest possible value when it comes to higher education.

Here is what you might have responded to Princeton FA after the two sentence reply that you took issue with as “somewhat curt”:

"Dear Princeton FA:

    Thank you for your reply to my inquiry about the discrepancy between my NPC amount and ultimate FA awarded. I appreciate that your calculation of my daughter's current award considers that I will have only one student in college, given that my eldest daughter may not be incurring educational expenses due to her disability [or insert better language here]. One reason my daughter applied to Princeton and was thrilled to be accepted is because it is known as having generous financial aid that considers each family's unique circumstances, consistent with your institution's FA Principle #3: "Need is determined through a careful review of each family's individual financial circumstances. Personal attention is given to every admitted student's aid application, taking into account special circumstances and professional judgment in determining aid awards."

     In the spirit of this principle, I'd like to share with you the fuller circumstances for my eldest daughter to better assess my family's overall FA picture. [Add 1-2 sentences on that here.] My daughter would love to accept Princeton's offer, especially if you are able to increase her FA at least to the level of a competitor school (John Hopkins University), which is treating my second daughter's educational expenses very differently. Rather than concluding that there are no additional educational expenses incurred, JHU has determined that as long as D2 was either taking college classes or in the rehabilitation program and was financially dependent on us, that they would consider her to have a "comparable college career" and would not reduce our financial aid offer because of it. This approach makes sense to me, as my eldest daughter will continue to have expenses that we will be supporting for her "comparable college career" long after D1 graduates from college.

    I understand that each institution has its own parameters and guidelines for awarding FA, but I wanted to provide this additional information consistent with Princeton's commitment to ascertaining financial aid only after a careful review of a family's special circumstances.

Sincerely,

KevinFromOC"

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I seem to recall OP’s daughter is attending the boarding school on a significant scholarship which allowed her to continue with her ice hockey.

Boarding school he said was 15% of the cost of attendance due to very generous aid from the BS.

@CollegeOdyssey2001 this poster has said…Princeton is off the table. Maybe it wouldn’t be for you…but it is for his daughter and him.

Let’s move on…and cheer this parent and college bound student as they choose from the top three choices they want to choose from. That decision has been made already.

@KevinFromOC good luck to your daughter as she makes this final choice. She will thrive wherever she attends. Excellent job doing what you asked in the title of this thread…finding great merit aid for a top student. Excellent job!

@KevinFromOC Another vote of confidence here in the job you and your D are doing. Our D20 has also turned down a couple of top schools (including USouthernCal) in favor of others offering her more generous merit aid, and our D21 is a future engineering major, so I’m following your journey with much interest. I can’t wait to hear where she decides to attend. I don’t think she can really go wrong with any of her choices.

Hi @thumper1. I don’t read OP’s post #1447 in the same way. Also, if posters on this thread are confident about the correctness of OP’s decision, then that certitude should be able to withstand some critical questioning.

@KevinFromOC - we also did an unsuccessful appeal with Princeton’s FA this season, and I also felt they were somewhat curt/unfriendly. And I found this in contrast with my experiences with everything Princeton from when DS-HS16 attended there!

P offered my DS-HS20 a much worse deal than even DS-HS16 had been paying just a year ago (he graduated a year early) and our situation didn’t change. I guess they’re counting on one less kid at home or something being a lot cheaper for us. We appealed and gave them real numbers and our increased tax bill under the new so-called cut but no dice.

Anyway, we were lucky that DS-HS20 also got into the school where DH works (staff, not faculty, so no help elsewhere). And that is where he’ll go, we’re 90+% sure. DS is disappointed but is being a really good sport. I think it’s harder b/c his brother got to go to P. But times and $$ change!! Plus the online aspect makes me even less likely to want to sacrifice economic stability, refinance, etc. as options like Kevin listed.

I’ve shared this story here on CC before. My H was hiring for an engineering position last fall. Final candidates were from MIT, an Ivy, Alabama, and UIUC. The Alabama student got the offer. He turned them down for another offer. The “back up” went to the UIUC student.

Employers are going to care about what your daughter does in her 4 years of undergrad. Internships, co-ops, leadership, research, etc… She’s going to be able to shine bright where ever she goes and there is something to be said about being a big fish in a small pond.

@CollegeOdyssey2001 - Princeton is a nice pedigree, but it is not a necessary pedigree for engineering, and if it is not affordable for this family, it could be seen as unkind to keep badgering the OP about it. He already calculated in the DD taking the maximum student Direct loan in estimating his financial limits, so recommending she take out a loan is moot.