looking for an IB expert to explain the math classes

<p>bump...hoping Marian is still on....</p>

<p>My son repeated a course -- it was second-semester Chemistry -- after receiving a C. It didn't seem to matter to the flagship state university that he later went to. </p>

<p>But he took the course over mainly because he was embarrassed about the C and wanted to prove to himself that he could do better. It wasn't educationally necessary for him to do it. A C in Algebra II is an entirely different matter.</p>

<p>Math is a sequential subject. With the possible exception of Geometry, which lives in its own little world, every level of math is dependent on those that have gone before, up through first-year calculus. </p>

<p>If a student has failed to master some fundamental concepts of Algebra II, the later precalculus and calculus courses (and to some extent, even statistics), which make use of algebra concepts, could turn out to be inordinately difficult. I think it's better for the student to get straightened out on those concepts before trying to go on. What it looks like on the transcript is secondary.</p>

<p>As any high school kid will tell you, you can get a C in a course without really understanding the material. That's the problem here. If the subject was a one-shot (something that you don't have to understand in order to do well in other courses, like chemistry or U.S. history), the C wouldn't really matter. But in math, I think it does.</p>

<p>ojr,
My son was in the same boat last year. Struggled thtrough pre-IB Alg II w/analysis with low Bs. The teacher, S and we all agreede that he should take Math Studies. It's pre-calc at a slightly slower pace, and it really helped S consolidate everything from last year. More importantly, he wasn't spending so much time on math that his other grades suffered. It worked out VERY well for him. At his school, he'll take the Math Studies SL junior year -- it's a one-year course here -- (and the AP Calc AB exam), and then take AP Stat for fun senior year.</p>

<p>I figure that is PLENTY of math for my history/enviro guy.</p>

<p>Counting -- that sounds really good, and my S is looking for exactly that outcome - spending less time on math, so his other classes don't suffer (and neither does he :)
Are you saying that what our school does in Math Studies I + Math Studies II, your school does in one course in one year?
I wonder if what your school calls Math Studies SL is what our school calls Math Methods SL ---- is that possible?
IT's sooo confusing!</p>

<p>My son graduated with a full-IB diploma in 2006. Rather than rehash what's already been discussed, I'll tell you what he did since it seems like our kids are similar. ie., very bright, but not math whizzes. :)</p>

<p>My son took Alg. 1 in 8th grade and strugged to get a B-. Our school system encourages kids (who are able) to take HS level Alg. 1 and Geo. 1 in seventh and eight grades, for credit -- meaning the grade they get is calculated into the HS GPA. This is great for kids who are exceptional in math because that gets them way ahead of the curve when they start HS already having successfully completed Alg. 1 or Geo. 1, or both.</p>

<p>8th grade kids who complete Alg. 1 or Geo. 1 with a B-/C or lower, though, are given the option of having that grade removed from the HS transcript so long as they retake the course in 9th grade.</p>

<p>This is what S did, except since he was in an IB program he took pre-IB Alg. 1 (a bit more of a challenge than Alg. 1), and ended with an A. Soph. year he took pre-IB Geometry 1; Jr. year he took pre-IB Alg. II/Trig, then as a senior he took one year of Math Studies I SL, and took the IB exam for that course at the end of Senior year. </p>

<p>He knew his limits as a math student, and had no desire to take on calculus. Still, this curriculum was challenging and he ended up doing quite well. He took Finite Math as Colllege freshman and (I think) got a B+. That fulfilled his math requirement and he's done. :)</p>

<p>Hope this helps.</p>

<p>The poster who thinks Math Studies and Math Methods are school-specific titles is wrong. There are 4 different IB options for math. From the IBO website:
Four courses in mathematics are available:</p>

<pre><code>* mathematical studies standard level
* mathematical methods standard level (final examination in 2005) or mathematics standard level (first examination in 2006)
* mathematics higher level
* further mathematics standard level.
</code></pre>

<p>Ok, it seems "math methods" may be an outdated title, and what used to be "methods" is now simply "math," but "studies" and the distinction between the two certainly still exist.</p>

<p>Studies and Methods are both pre-calc, but as I understood it, Methods was intended for students who were actually going to master calc, while Studies was a more basic class intended to cover necessary concepts without too much complication. You can probably find more clarification on the IB website. I do not know about the differentiation between Studies 1 and 2; this may well be a school-specific title if they have decided that class would serve better not as preparation for a SL exam but as preparation for Methods.</p>

<p>In my school, there were 10th graders in Studies who took it to fill a year before going on to Methods; the course was not appropriate for students intending to do HL. Maybe this is what your son will do. One thing to think of, perhaps, is the caliber of other students who will be in Methods; even though I could probably have handled the material, the fact that the other students seemed like they had learned the stuff in kindergarten made it overwhelming and impenetrable. Might your son have similar barriers? If not, great; if so, then maybe he should figure out a way to take the Studies SL exam his junior year.</p>

<p>I took it as a junior and took AP Stats senior year; my route was considered the weakest possible within IB (taking AP Calc senior year would have bumped it up a notch), but I still got a 6 on the exam, was less stressed than I otherwise would have been (in an already far too stressful program), and received many college acceptances.</p>

<p>ojr,
S2 could take either the Math Studies SL next year or the Math (Methods) SL; he is going to do Math Studies and keep his life sane, while taking the AP Calc AB exam to show he can handle the tough stuff. (Ooog. Defensive tackle does calculus. Ooog.)</p>

<p>Some schools do some of these course over two years; for example, I know some places that do HL Physics over two years, and in other places, one year. At S2's school HL Bio is a double period senior year.</p>

<p>Counting Down, I didn't think there was enough calculus in the Math Studies course for people to pass the AP Calculus AB exam unless they went on and took the AB Calculus course.</p>

<p>Perhaps things have changed in the last couple of years.</p>

<p>To the OP and everybody else: Unless local school rules prohibit it, if you take your IB math exam (of whatever variety) as a junior, it is possible to take no math as a senior. Of course, to maintain a rigorous curriculum, you should take another academic course in the time slot this frees up.</p>

<p>My daughter, who is a math person but who did not want to do HL because she didn't want to have to tackle four HL exams instead of three, went this route. She had completed SL Math and AP Calculus BC, and she didn't want to take AP Statistics (because she knew she would have to take a more rigorous statistics course as part of her college major) or multivariable calculus, which were the options available to her. So she took no math as a senior and took AP Economics in the freed-up period. Nobody seemed to mind.</p>

<p>Scarf - you have it EXACTLY correct. The math studies SL is spread over two years, and he could take the SL exam junior year, then either take another class (as Marion notes) senior year, or take AP calc (I don't think he'll want to) or stats.
In my opinion, thought, there's no reason to take an SL exam if you aren't doing full diploma, as colleges award credit only for HL exams. He doesn't know yet if he'll do the full diploma, but the math studies option makes it look alot more appealing to him!
Thanks for coming back on Marion - and the other posters, too.</p>

<p>In order from easy to hellish...
I'm an IB diploma candidate, second year, with experience as a victim of IB HL Math.</p>

<p>IB Math Studies
--easiest by far. Great, but doesn't teach any calculus. Only pre-cal.
IB</a> Math Studies - Syllabus Synopsis
IB Math Methods
--haven't taken this, but here is the syllabus. I can explain what it means to you if you don't understand IB terminology
IB</a> Math Methods - Syllabus Synopsis
IB Math HL
--really really hard. only for students who want to be engineers. The amount of material they cover is ridiculous. I took this class, and I am failing the exam. A girl who is in the top 10 (#4/1170) failed the practice exam with a 2 (and she made all high As on the exams (95+ on a AP-style curved exam). A comment on the graders of the exam, is that many take the class who shouldn't have enrolled. Don't take this class unless your child is a genius at math!!!&lt;/p>

<p>My story:
I took IB Math HL for the experience, and to get college credit. Now I am in danger of losing my IB diploma/not getting one. That means I won't get credit for any of my sl courses because I did not get a 6/7. My GPA is worse because the class was so hard. I wish I had done Math SL so I could secure my diploma, and gain credit for the courses I am actually good in. </p>

<p>The moral of my story:</p>

<p>Don't take Math HL unless you are some sort of mathematical genius. I was better at the AP Calculus test than the HL test (and I didn't take the AP Calc class) Although I haven't received my scores, I left less questions blank. That IB exam made me want to cry. </p>

<p>:(</p>

<p>In the interest of full disclosure, I received my diploma two years ago. I wimped out of HL Math at the last minute, took SL Math (Methods), and had an easy time achieving a 7. My school didn't even actually teach HL, but a few of us were self-studying. I think HL would have been manageable had my school offered a course to cover the HL material.</p>

<p>I took:
9. Honors Algebra II
10. Honors Pre-calc
11. AP Calc BC
12. AP Statistics</p>

<p>I now do well in college math, despite struggling a bit in AP Calc. I am assuming, though, that your son doesn't want to take math in college.</p>

<p>Marian is right, there still isn't any calculus on IB Math Studies. Calculus AB + Math Studies roughly equals Math Methods, so CountingDown, I am also confused!</p>

<p>orjr, Math Studies I & II followed by AP Calculus might be a compromise for your son. His IB scores won't suffer if he has a rough time with calculus. AB Calc as a senior certainly looks rigorous to colleges, but he won't have to worry about the AP Exam until he has acceptances in hand (and could bomb it without consequences), which might take off some of the pressure.</p>

<p>Marian,
The rising junior parents were told that Math Studies includes some calc. S2 says he's taking AP Calc AB next year and will take the Math Studies exam. I clearly need to talk to the coordinator yet again and get some clarification. She had told us previously that Math Studies students shouldn't switch to SL because they are already working on some of the Math Studies internal assessments.</p>

<p>As it is, I'm going to be ordering IB books so we know what exactly is covered. S2's math teachers told him to save his AAF and MS notebooks, but I have no idea if this means they get to self-study all of that material prior to the exam or if they will have actual review sessions.</p>

<p>Remember, SL courses are meant to be taught in one year. Many schools in the US teach the math over the two years because the European system doesn't teach math in the same sequence as the US and they try to add to the curriculum to align with the traditional US system. Perhaps in your son's school, all of the pre-calc topics (and additions to make it more traditional) would be covered in I and the statistics (with additions) in II. ???</p>

<p>I would suggest making an appointment with the IB Coordinator, who may be able to explain all of this in "non math" terms. If the math chair could be there at the same time....all the better!</p>

<p>I suppose skipping IB entirely and taking math courses that are known, understandable, and cover the material most high school students get is out of the question?</p>

<p>"I suppose skipping IB entirely and taking math courses that are known, understandable, and cover the material most high school students get is out of the question?"</p>

<p>Schools need to differentiate themselves when it comes to calculus. It's integral to getting their graduates into the best colleges.</p>

<p>For a rigorous alternative to the typical AP stuff, there's always Discrete Mathematics.</p>

<p>Have you checked your state's course listing? States have all courses taught in public high school's listed in their comprehensive course catalog. Usually this is available online. Ask your school for the course numbers assigned to the math courses and then match them to the course numbers in the state catalog. You will gain the information regarding the curriculum from that. School's often call courses different things but they have to use a course number provided by the state.
Saying all that, Math Studies sequence is the easiest IB math sequence. You can only take the SL test in Math Studies. Then there is SL Math and HL Math. These are test designations and schools use a variety of courses to cover the material required for these tests. The highest level of IB math is not offered at my S's school, so I do not have information about it, I just know it exists. At S's school Math SL is covered in IB PreCalc Class. This class covers pre Calc, a bit of Calc and statistics and uses a book that is entitled IB Math SL. Our sequence for Math HL is AP Calc AB and AP Calc BC with the BC course taught for about a semester and the additional HL topics covered in the second semester. The students take the AP tests also. The IBO sites also has descriptions. For someone who is not interested in math, I suggest the Math SL or the Math Studies track. HL is very rigorous.</p>

<p>BCEagle, the OP has explicitly stated that the curriculum should go no higher than calculus. Unless Trig, Pre-calculus, Calc simply aren't offered in the OP's high school because of IB, what would be so horrible about a student not inclined toward math following the normal college-bound track in math?</p>

<p>"BCEagle, the OP has explicitly stated that the curriculum should go no higher than calculus. Unless Trig, Pre-calculus, Calc simply aren't offered in the OP's high school because of IB, what would be so horrible about a student not inclined toward math following the normal college-bound track in math?"</p>

<p>From the Preface of Discrete Structures, Logic, and Computability by Hein:</p>

<p>This book can be read by anyone with a good background in high school mathematics and an introductory knowledge of computer programming. Therefor it could also be used at the freshman level or at the advanced high school level. Although the book is intended for future computer scientists, applied mathematicians , or engineers, it may also be suitable for a wider audience. For example, it could be used in courses for students who intend to teach computer science, or for discrete mathematics in high school.</p>

<p>One of the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics standards documents from the late 80s or later mentions discrete mathematics in the K12 curriculum. And there were some high schools offering it back in the 1990s. I don't know if that's the case today. It appears that there's been a drive to homogeneous offerings in math today.</p>

<p>Outside of Discrete Math, there's also Finite Math which is a collection of different math topics that one may see in community colleges.</p>

<p>One favorite out-of-the-box math textbooks that I've seen is Harold Jacobs' Mathematics: A Human Endeavor which is a popular text used by homeschoolers with kids that don't take to the traditional curriculum.</p>

<p>Nice post, BCEagle, but it doesn't answer my question at all.</p>

<p>Instead of the IB math curriculum, what's wrong with a student following the more usual college-bound high school sequence of Trig/pre-calc/calc? Most schools offer such a track. Don't know whether the OP's does, but if it does, perhaps her kid could avoid the whole IB confusion and simply go ahead with the track millions of other college-bound students follow.</p>

<p>It appears that the OP's school only offers what is listed and I assume that it is structured that way for efficiency. Our school district only provides Everyday Math for K-8 (uggghhhh) - if you want something else, too bad.</p>

<p>BTW, I prefer the traditional approach as it provides a lot of flexibility for both the school and the student.</p>