Looking for Haverford-esque matches & safetys

College Search & Selection
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<p>SB Mom - originally posted this at the same time you were posting. Your D has a very nice list of schools. Glad to see Bates on it, as I was going to make that suggestion. On a visit lthere ast fall students seemed a bit happier and more open than at similar northeastern campuses. However, your daughter is likely in waitlist territory there without the tennis help. They are in the same league with Amherst, Williams et al but usually not at the top of the league, so I think they would jump all over a solid California player. I believe that have ED II if that is of any interest to you.</p>

<p>Dickinson is a nice add too. A little bit preppy and greek there but under control. Friendly students. Very strong language, English, history and social sciences. Other match and safety schools I was going to suggest were College of Wooster, Knox and Scripps, but I see no reason for them to replace anything on your list. </p>

<p>Final note, if you nixed St. Olaf for religious reasons, I'd put it back on. Despite the name and the school's heritage, I would not characterize it as a religious school. The chourses are near-professional in quality; excellent tennis coach.</p>

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<p>Re: ED at Bates. They have taken up to 40% of their class using ED. . one of the reasons why they are pretty selective RD.</p>

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<p>Will reconsider St. Olaf... I may be a little hypersensitive to the religious affiliation; we live near an evangelical school and-- no thanks! ED2 could be good at Bates too. Thanks for all your excellent advice.</p>

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<p>St. Olaf is far from being evangelical. There are chapel services, but not mandatory, although if one of the many choir sings it would worth it. My impression (we are Protestant, but not evangelical) is that the Lutheran heritage remains, more than at Carleton, but it is still low key. It is reflected in commitment to service, and a dry campus. Interestingly, Carleton still has convocations which are the remnants of chapel services.
St. Olaf's has one of the finest choral music programs in the country - if she's a singer, it would be a very special place to go.</p>

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<p>A few suggestions not yet mentioned: Skidmore, Wheaton, Goucher, Dickinson, the College of Wooster. All would be either matches or safeties. If she is attracted to Oberlin, the first three would have a similiar feel.</p>

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<p>My D was pretty adamant about no women's colleges. But, if you are looking for a "safety" that is Haverford-esque, it would certainly be worth considering Bryn Mawr, a mile down the road. The two schools are virtual twins, except that Bryn Mawr never went co-ed (Haverford used to be all male) and Bryn Mawr will be easier to get into (like all women's colleges, it only has half the appicant pool).</p>

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<p>Thanks for the clarification on St Olaf's. Are there (m)any Jewish, Muslim, agnostic, or athiest kids there? Or is it basically a Christian campus, without the chapel requirement? </p>

<p>We live in an ethnically and religiously diverse community now, and we are fairly secular Jews, so I doubt she'd be comfortable without some of this diversity surrounding her. The music aspect does sound excellent, and a school that has roots in a Christian tradition is fine, so long as not actively a Christian-focused campus. Obviously Haverford has Quaker roots, but today there is only a small percentage of Quakers in the student body.</p>

<p>I like the suggestions offered about Skidmore, Goucher, etc. And of course, Bryn Mawr makes a lot of sense for a womens college.</p>

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<p>Weird. . .earlier post disappeared or is visible only in a parallel dimension. I did want to let you know that though I am getting more open-minded on the subject, I am somewhat biased against schools that are dominated by a single religious approach or frat/sorority culture.</p>

<p>The best descriptors of St. Olaf students I have known (and I know about thirty years of them) are earnest and open-minded, not religious. Biggest group is probably secular Lutherans. I suspect a secular Jew would be fine there, though there are more secular Jews at some of your Ds other choices. More kids likely go to chapel at St. Olaf than at other LACs but some of that is a function of school size - St. Olaf has almost 3000 kids - big for an LAC. One other function of size is that there are reasonably sized clusters of all different kinds of students, (except maybe for muslims.)</p>

<p>I don't want to push St. Olaf too hard as the main reasons I suggested the school were ECs - choral music and tennis (good coach.) For overall academic and campus culture I would favor Haverford, Carleton, Bates and Lawrence for your D, though I am making some pretty fine distinctions to do so (and of course don't know her at all.) All of the schools on your Ds list have very satisfied students on their campuses. Each one has both very good and distinctive characteristics.</p>

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<p>I think reid hit St. Olaf's well - I, too was thinking primarily of ECs and the fact that it is in the same town as Carleton, convenient for investigating. She will have some good choices.</p>

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<p>Good comments reidm & cangel. I appreciate your insights very much.</p>

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<p>For what it is worth, SBmom, my son applied ED last year to Haverford and didn't get in. He then applied to Grinnell, Lawrence, Oberlin, Hamilton, Goucher, Skidmore and Middlebury and got in everywhere, Middlebury off of WL. He is now at Grinnell. Goucher offered a nice merit scholarship. He is musical and a writer, not an athlete. We had visited Haverford several times (it is near family) and son had liked the diversity of kids he had come in contact with, the serene environment, the honor code. He is thus far very content at Grinnell. The kids are extraordinarily friendly, classes are challenging, the social environment is relaxed and there are very good Div III sports(he is a great spectator!). Of course, it is always easy to rationalize, but I think Grinnell is the better school for him, anyways. We are not from the east coast and I think the midwestern feel of Grinnell suits his style. Grinnell has a very high % international kids as well, which was something we were looking for- though Haverford has more diversity in terms of the population of American kids it attracts.</p>

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<p>I would also look at Gettysburg, Muhlenberg, Susquehanna, Ursinus, Mary Washington, American, Hartwick, Goucher, Connecticut College, St Lawrence, Union.</p>

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<p>Robyrm: I am so glad to hear about your son loving Grinnell. I saw some families last year who focused so hard on the first choice schools that anything else was a huge let down. I am trying to learn from that and go the other way... treat the reach as a total longshot, a lottery ticket, focusing instead on the "matches" & "safetys" and having enough of them to offer a choice in April. If Grinnell happens, I may want to get you son's email.</p>

<p>Jamimom: More good ideas. I may want to add one more "safety" so I am happy to have them.</p>

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<p>SBmom, Luckily, he never looked back after the ED decision. He truly liked 5/7 of the other schools nearly as much. And, it was hard not to be excited about 7 acceptances!! Hopefully son #2, who just submitted an ED application elsewhere, will have a similar attitude should the need arise. It just seems to make good sense to get them to move on after the application is done, and to get them to fall in love with a bunch of schools. By the way, we also visited (with one or both kids) Vassar, Wesleyan, Carleton, Bates, Kenyon, Dickinson and Earlham which are on your list.</p>

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<p>dear robyrm: Re Carleton, Bates, Kenyon, Dickinson & Earlham: I would love to hear your POV on these schools. We visited Wes & Vassar a while ago so know about them, but we were not thinking about the four schools above at that time. When you have a moment, I'd like to hear what you thought of these four: kids happy? Mellow social scene? Fun campus life? </p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

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<p>. . .thought I would keep this thread alive as I am also interested in Robyrm's (and others) take on these schools. I visited all but Carleton with my nephew last year, (but as a Minnesotan know many Carleton grads and a few current students.) Anyway - here are some key-observation blurbs on each:</p>

<p>Carleton - most highly regarded nationally of the bunch. Extremely strong academics across all disciplines; maybe a little light in fine arts. Moving from an academic grind culture to a more balanced social/academic/ec activities culture. No greeks on campus helps an egalitarian environment, though plenty of money and college prep schools represented. Of this group, the best of the bunch for science and math, closely followed by Bates in the sciences.</p>

<p>Bates - I really liked this school. Very interesting course offerings plus a one-course May term. Kids seemed a bit more earnest and more excited to be there than at similarly selective northeastern LACs. Very active student body with minimal sense of entitlement; broad sense of community rather than campus cliques. One spectacular new classroom building. Have a friend whose second-year student is very happy there.</p>

<p>Kenyon - interesting mix of earnest midwesterners, sophisticated northeastern prep school kids, theatre and literature freaks and the top D3 swimmers in the country. Somehow it all works socially. Frats have a presence on campus but do not dominate (minimal sorority activity, reflecting the schools former status as a men's college - up until 1969 or so.) Very strong English and drama departments - breadth of English course offerings look like they are from a much larger university. Very strong in econ, poli sci, sociology and psychology as well. Classics and languages are very good, too. Will have more insight from my nephew after he finishes semester #1 in December.</p>

<p>Dickinson - This was a school I was prepared not to like, due to a strong greek culture and a bit too much hype on strategic changes in the late 90s. Very solid academically - serious distribution requirements and some very interesting options for a required freshman seminar. Fantastic library, where I was interested to see some professors and students working together. Pre-professional focus, but the school has a nice international perspective and first-class language departments. (Even less diverse than the average LAC though, over 90% white.) I liked the school - a good option for several types of student. Largest school of this group, over 2000.</p>

<p>Earlham - Smallest school of this group at approx 1100, this was a school I was prepared to like, due to the Quaker tradition and some interesting programs, like Japanese studies, Peace and Global Studies and others. I did not take an official tour here, but walked the campus with the son of a friend. (I know a couple other parents with current students; again, all parties very happy with the school.) Earlham professors are said to be accessible above and beyon the call of duty; lots of student/faculty research. High participation of students in international study and community/world service programs. Earlham may have the best academics of any LAC at its level of selectivity, though my nephew thought it too small and a bit too liberal politically.</p>

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<p>SBmom-
Let's see if I can add anything else useful:</p>

<p>Earlham: struck us as a big High School. Very accessible and friendly, informal faculty. The students we met were complimentary of the support they were receiving when confronted with challenges. Also, very positive about community life. Quite honestly, it just felt too academically soft to us.</p>

<p>Dickinson: One of the first schools we visited. Students were articulate and personable. Campus was very "collegiate." Excellent language and international programs. Felt much too regional-everyone we met was from Pittsburgh- we knew son needed a school with more geographic diversity.</p>

<p>Kenyon: Up and coming and working hard at it. Son very eager to like Kenyon as he is very interested in creative writing. We, unlike many others who have really loved it, were not enamorate of the physical environment and campus. Son was turned off when the tour guide raved about the "soft science" options to fulfill requirements- as he quite likes and does well in sciences as well. Son got a hard sell from the interviewer, an alum who was also an international. Very active and engaged student body was very appealing, as was the fine writing program.</p>

<p>Bates: My son did a summer creative writing workshop there and decided to look no further as he felt the campus was run down, and as he disliked Lewiston. I had spent much time in Lewiston as a child, and couldn't help but agree. Sorry, not much input.</p>

<p>Carleton: Saw this with my 2nd son. Gorgeous campus and unique student body among the midwestern liberal arts schools we visited. Most "intellectual"-students were introspective and reflective-- and clearly capable of making their own fun. Compared with Grinnell it seemed less "worldly" in the sense that there is a less activist feel among the students. Like Grinnell, it is a school that constantly examines itself and moves forward. Low % international kids at Carleton something of a concern to us, but they are aiming to increase this. </p>

<p>Though you have visited, for calibration purposes here was our take on Wesleyan and Vassar.</p>

<p>Vasar: a visceral negative reaction to the Admissions officer who droned on and on about Vassar without being able to tell us what made it unique. The tour guide was a humorless pre-med which didn't help. I was disappointed for my son, who so wanted to love a school with Steinway in every dorm- but just didn't. The school gave us a very "unwelcoming feeling"- start to finish.</p>

<p>Wesleyan: Son #2 is a go getter take charge guy and he saw himself immediately in the Wes students running the admissions office, giving the information session, raving about the school on the tour. The facilities are not in the best condition- a wee bit seedy here and there. We know several students there who are doing fantastic research and challenging themselves on many personal and academic levels. School was a big hit with my son who loves egalitarian environments, discourse and pushing limits. It would not be the right school for his brother, who would have found all of the above a bit overwhelming I think. </p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>Robyrm and Reid - a question about Carleton, what was your impression of the US geographic diversity? I know there is a much larger % of Midwest there than at NE LACs, but is it overwhelming? I would think they would be competing with Macalester for internationals - might make competition harder. Carleton app is done, but she hasn't been able to visit at all.</p>

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<p>dear reidm & Robyrm:</p>

<p>Thanks for all your help. It is disturbingly true how influential the tour guide can be!! We had an absolutely fantastic tour guide at Vassar, charming, intelligent, well-informed, involved in everything, & very very enthusiastic... your "dream roommate." Her vitality made the place seem very exciting.</p>

<p>At Skidmore, the tour guides were practically sleepwalking, and the school thus seemed like a place for boring, apathetic people. Of course, two different tour guides would make two totally different impressions. They should screen those guides a little better!</p>

<p>Based on my research and what you have added, I think my D would be happy at any of the above but probably best off at Kenyon, Bates, & Carleton. I suspect her shot at admission is best at Kenyon (of these three.) I think the safetys will still be Lawrence & Beloit-- maybe Allegheny for an eastern safety.</p>

<p>Friends have mentioned Whitman to me but it's too outdoorsy/Patagonia for my kid.... but if you have hiking enthusiasts, you might want to peek at it. Very good, regionally well-known, & happy school. Occidental is another good "match" but simply too close to home.</p>

<p>I think the big appeal of Haverford for my D was it felt very gentle and welcoming. Funny that some on other threads have termed the atmosphere "stifling." My D is a very gentle soul and somewhat shy. (Type of kid who at age 5 would hang on fearfully to my leg arriving at at a birthday party when all other kids went screaming in.) I believe the environment at Wes, though exciting, was a teeny bit intimidating, though we loved a lot about Wes.</p>

<p>I am encouraging her to remember the birthdays were all fun once she warmed up!</p>

<p>Thanks again...</p>

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<p>Cangel,
I can't say much about the US diversity at Carleton- the kids we met were mostly midwesterners or from the west coast. I think they get plenty of high acheivers from all over due to their NM policy. What we felt about the kids we met at Carleton was that there was genuine interest and openness to learning from and about others from varied places, but maybe not the depth of mix, yet (but, really our focus was on the international side). Macalester has a very high % international kids and the poplulation seemed more "cosmopolitan"/ edgier/ more political as well.</p>

<p>SBmom- my son really loved Lawrence. He was enchanted by our tour guides- one a pierced opera singer the other an international econ student, by the physical environment, music opportunities and the diversity of the students' interests. It was in his top 3!</p>

<p>Agreed, the whole tour guide issue is problematic. But, we had to eliminate schools and decided that it was up to the schools to put their best foot forward to attract our interest!</p>