Looking for Safety Schools - urban, applied econ major + strong music/IR

College Search & Selection
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<p>Hi everyone,</p>

<p>I'm trying to find safety schools to add to my college list. I'm interested in more applied/practically based economics (of the Wharton variety) rather than a very intellectually focused/theoretical econ major, as well as strong music (as a second major/minor) and international relations programs. I have extremely high standardized test scores, have taken the most advanced courses possible in my school (with mostly As and a few Bs), and have extremely strong extracurriculars in the performing arts, business, and tutoring/teaching. My counselor says that U Chicago is a "strong match" for me (though I'm not really interested in the school) and that NYU Stern is a safety. I also strongly prefer to be either in a city or very close to one.</p>

<p>Here's my college list:</p>

<p>Reach: Wharton, Columbia, Stanford, Princeton? (maybe)
Match: UC Berkeley, UCLA (in-state), ???
Safeties: NYU Stern, Barnard, UCSD, ?</p>

<p>I don't qualify for financial aid and my parents are willing and able to pay whatever they need. Still, I'd really appreciate merit scholarships or tuition that's not around $60-70K!</p>

<p>Anyone have suggestions for matches and safeties? Thanks!</p>

2

<p>Have you considered USC? You would probably qualify for merit, and it has a great School of Music. Not a safety but you might also check out Claremont McKenna College. The music program would be through the 5C’s. As a match look into Santa Clara University. They offer merit money, and they have music. Also check out Tufts. Strong IR and a good music department. There are also out of state public universities like Michigan, Indiana, Texas, Illinois etc which all have strong schools of music and might offer enough merit aid.</p>

<p>As for music - are you talking about studying performance or music history/theory? UCSD and Berkeley would not be the strongest options for undergrad performance studies, and UCLA might be difficult to minor in, or double major. For some schools if you wish to have a separate major in music, you’ll need to apply directly to the School of Music. You’ll need to do some research on that.</p>

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<p>I’ve looked at USC, and the music school minors are interesting to me (I don’t want to apply straight to any music schools for which admission is based on your audition for several reasons), but I’ve visited and didn’t like their undergrad business program or the campus/atmosphere. I’ve also visited CMC and wasn’t too happy with how far away it is from LA. Santa Clara is a bit too close to home :)</p>

<p>I’m definitely thinking about Tufts and maybe U Michigan; I’ve put my numbers into Parchment and got back encouraging results, but I feel like schools like Tufts and Rice and the top 2 UCs aren’t really dependable year-to-year. </p>

<p>As far as music, I’m not interested in a conservatory-style degree; I’d rather do an ethnomusicology or music industry minor and be really heavily involved with music as an extracurricular and take academic music classes than be locked into a really strict classical voice BM degree. On that note, if you know of any schools that are particularly strong, either through university programs or the student environment, in vocal music (classical, musical theatre, jazz), theatre (musical and experimental) and dance, I’d really appreciate it! </p>

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<p>What about Vanderbilt? It has an excellent music department.</p>

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<p>UCLA is a great choice for ethnomusicology - classes of which I believe you can take without auditioning into the School of Music. Another good choice would be Wesleyan, although I don’t know what direction their economics classes take. And UC Berkeley is a top school for musicology, and has ethnomusicology too. You could go to The Jazz School for vocal classes. For non classical vocal music - look into University of Miami.</p>

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<p>Not sure what the OP means by “applied econ”, but I’m assuminng she means less Math oriented. Wesleyan has a very large department for a small college and covers a lot of territory. It’s one of the most popular majors at a college that is perhaps better known nationally for its film and music departments. I counted 19 full-time faculty at the department website. I’d browse some of their working papers to get a better idea of their interests. One that stood out was Abigail Hornsby:
<a href=“http://ahornstein.faculty.wesleyan.edu/”>http://ahornstein.faculty.wesleyan.edu/&lt;/a&gt; </p>

<p>Also, FWIW, Gary Yohe, who is a lead panelist on the United Nations Panel on Climate Control that won a Nobel Peace Prize several years ago, also teaches at Wesleyan. Economics and Environmental Studies sounds pretty practical to me.</p>

<p>And, finally a word about the arts at Wesleyan; over 11% of the last graduating class consisted of visual and performing arts majors, nearly twice the number at Williams which also has a healthy arts scene. Wesleyan is probably the best small college music scene not affiliated with a conservatory. Middletown itself is not wildly urban, but it is close enough to New York City that musical groups, especially Brooklyn bands, stop by for gigs on a regular basis. </p>

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<p>One tactic would be to look at the NRC Doctoral rankings for Econ and Music. Obviously, these are only somewhat relevant for undergrad (some say not relevant at all), but you’d get the broad idea of research strength in these two fields. I had a link saved: <a href=“NRC Rankings Overview: Economics”>http://chronicle.com/article/NRC-Rankings-Overview-/124724/&lt;/a&gt; I’m not sure if there are newer rankings available.</p>

<p>I would look at U of Michigan and U of Rochester.</p>

<p>Have a look at McGill too, probably a Likely for you. Not a bad thing to have one of Canada’s top universities as a Likely or Match, especially for someone who wants (vibrant) city life. The wretched cold from Dec to Mar might put some fear into a California kid, however, but good on you if it doesn’t. </p>

<p>Did you look at Northwestern? Very good in Econ, Business, Music, Theatre. With your scores you might want to consider adding another reach.</p>

<p>Whether these schools are Reach/Match/Likely/Safety would take a bit of analysis. Also, I have no idea whether you’d find it practical (or possible) to combine an Econ major with Music (major or minor) at these schools. </p>

<p>You only have one liberal arts college on your list. Are you ok with adding others? The point is, your best bet for strength in both Econ and Music might come from the larger research unis. Strength of an Econ program is hard to gauge at a LAC, at least when you go down a bit in the depth chart, for those schools that would be Matches or Safeties for you. Music at a LAC is probably less hard to gauge, based on reputation (e.g. Oberlin). </p>

<p>Barnard has the advantage of being tied to Columbia, as you know, and this no doubt was a factor for you, so I’m wondering if you’ve made a broad search for other LACs that fit your requirements. Wesleyan, as @circuitrider said, is worth a look, but it’s getting into the Reachy territory where you might be better served by a research uni.</p>

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<p>@circuitrider‌, I think Wharton applied Econ is MORE math oriented. </p>

<p>OP, for a school to be a safety it must be affordable. What’s your family budget for school? NYU will cost $60+k/year.</p>

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<p>The problem for the OP is they’re more interested in music as an extra-curricular or elective study. Many of the schools mentioned - Michigan, Northwestern, Oberlin etc. limit access to the majority of their music courses to those majoring in music. The OP could be better off at a school which does not have a conservatory or School of Music at all. For instance, CMC and Tufts would be perfect.</p>

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<p>Tufts maybe. The problem with CMC, as I understand it, is that it’s a very social sciences dominated place and even though Scripps and Pitzer are just blocks away, their ambiance doesn’t necessarily carry over to the rest of the 5Cs. This may be a minor point if the OP is only interested in taking a few courses; but, for someone with a real artistic mind set, the different 5C personalities may actually be daunting rather than liberating</p>

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<p>^^ <a href=“http://cmcforum.com/opinion/01252012-will-cmc-start-embracing-the-arts”>http://cmcforum.com/opinion/01252012-will-cmc-start-embracing-the-arts&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://cmcforum.com/opinion/05082013-cmcs-stifled-musicians”>http://cmcforum.com/opinion/05082013-cmcs-stifled-musicians&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>My son is a CMC alum. Music is a joint major with the other campuses. It is not an issue to add a music major to economics. And the music ensembles are open to all 5C’s, as well. The only issue is that one’s roommates will be less likely to be purely arts focused. But the OP isn’t either.
As for the referenced article - my son’s roommate for a number of years at CMC, who was not an econ, but a biology major - had an active band made up of a number of CMC students. They continued to perform professionally after graduation, although subsequently the friend went on to get both medical and business degrees.</p>

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<p>Thanks to everyone for your replies!</p>

<p>Yes, by “applied” I definitely meant more math-oriented. My main areas of interest within econ are behavioral economics, public policy, and finance, and I see myself doing the usual couple years in investment banking post-undergrad and then switching to whatever I’m interested in at that point, so it’s important that the relevant classes are available. The other thing that’s really important to me in that respect is the alumni network/on-campus recruiting at the school.</p>

<p>Erin’s dad: The family budget is nonexistent (my parents can/will pay for all of my undergrad, regardless of cost). That said, I want to get what we pay for, especially since Berkeley is practically in our backyard. I know NYU is ridiculously expensive, but I feel like job placement + NYC sort of makes up for it.</p>

<p>Dunboyne: I actually have no idea what the ‘official’ difference between an LAC and a research university is - I just know that I hate small schools in small towns (I come from a hypercompetitive and fairly small school, and I am definitely not a fan of that environment), and most so-called liberal arts colleges seem to be off in upstate New York, hours away from civilization (I’ve taking the train from NYC to Princeton, and I thought that was pretty torturous, so that sort of distance is extremely off-putting for me). Barnard is fine because it’s partnered with Columbia and obviously in a big city, but I’m pretty wary of anything that’s supposed to be ‘liberal arts’. Also, provided I don’t need to learn how to drive in snow, I’m tentatively willing to go somewhere cold, as long as it’s not winter literally the entire school year.</p>

<p>SpiritManager: That’s definitely the major problem I’ve run into college searching: though it definitely makes sense at giant universities like U Michigan and Northwestern to limit music courses to majors, I’m definitely not having music as my primary major. Additionally, since even if I do end up with music as my career (in my wildest dreams lol), I probably won’t be trying to work my way up through the hierarchy of opera, so the value of a BM performance degree is very limited for me. On the other hand, NEC’s Contemporary Improvisation major is literally the coolest thing ever and also pretty much embodies my approach to music; I would totally be applying to Harvard or Tufts/NEC just for that if those dual-degree programs weren’t almost physically impossible to actually complete.</p>

<p>By the way, does anyone know, assuming I’m within the school of social sciences at Rice, how hard it is to get “the permission of the instructor and the approval of the dean of the Shepherd School” to take advanced music classes?</p>

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<p>It would be an uphill battle at Rice. Unless you’re already an exceptional classical singer who would have been accepted through audition. You’re much better off applying to Tufts/NEC. Many students do that program every year - I don’t know why you think it’s next to impossible. Harvard/NEC is a different animal - it is Harvard for 3 years, with private lessons at NEC, then two years at NEC for a Masters. As for Barnard - what exactly do you think liberal arts means? At all the universities on your list you would be applying to their school of liberal arts.</p>

<p>Sounds like the Claremont Colleges would be too small for you. I think you should focus on the economics departments, and the general atmosphere of the colleges on your lists. You can find extra-curricular music everywhere. I’m sure you could form a band, or join an existing ensemble wherever you go. And there are bound to be adjunct professors teaching voice. Jazz and otherwise. You just won’t be able to take advanced classes in music unless you decide to study it seriously.</p>

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<p>I wouldn’t consider Stern or Barnard safeties for anyone. Matches, maybe, but their acceptance rates are too low to be considered “safe.”</p>

<p>Unless the less selective UCs are reasonable safeties for you (meaning that you could see yourself ending up there) you need to widen your safety net to include more big OOS universities that are less selective (or loosen up your wish-list).</p>

<p>Some other mid-range match-y ideas: CMU, Emory. </p>

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<p>SpiritManager: I was under the impression that a lot of the dual-degree programs are very difficult to complete because of a lack of coordination between the two schools in terms of scheduling as well as physical distance. That impression is mostly based on JHU-Peabody and Columbia-Juilliard, I assumed it applied to the Tufts-NEC program as well. If the Tufts-NEC program is more feasible, then that’s turned into a great option for me :)</p>

<p>I’m guessing that liberal arts just means you have a core breadth requirement? I’m not sure what the difference between liberal arts colleges and universities is though. </p>

<p>momrath: I tried to take ‘only apply to colleges you’d actually be happy attending’ to heart, guess I overshot lol. I think the thing i could loosen up on is proximity to a major city. Would applying to Econ within Tepper also be considered a match?</p>

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<p>There’s “the liberal arts” as a category of academic disciplines and there’s “liberal arts college” as a category college types. Large research universities often have liberal arts colleges or schools which offer bachelors in humanities, sciences and social sciences. These are separate from undergraduate and graduate professional schools within the university like business, engineering, architecture. A small liberal arts college (or LAC) is mostly focused on undergraduate liberal arts education, characterized by small classes with lots of personal attention.</p>

<p>Some liberal arts colleges within universities and some LACs have core curricula, some have distribution requirements and some are totally open ended. You can’t generalize by the name. A core curriculum like Columbia’s can be restricting, but distribution requirements are usually quite easily fulfilled.</p>

<p>It’s quite possible to pursue a career in business with a BA in economics, math, international relations or just about any thing else. The key is to have access to internships and alumni/ae network so that you can build your resume during your undergraduate years. So I wouldn’t look solely at business schools, but also at liberal arts programs within universities – and if change your mind about going small, at some LACs.</p>

<p>Whether you would like a small liberal college depends more on personal preference than on quality of education or employment opportunities. Maybe do some visiting as see how you feel on campus. The top LACs like Williams, Amherst, Pomona and several others do very well in business career and graduate school placement. I’d concur that Wesleyan has a good balance of academics and arts within a stone’s throw of New York and Boston.Some other urban or near-urban ideas would be Swarthmore, Haverford, Rhodes, Macalester. I don’t know much about their specific economics and music programs, but they have excellent academics.</p>

<p>Williams is about as non-urban as you can get but it has an excellent economics and math departments, excellent name recognition with investment banks and consulting firms and a strong professional focus. It also has an excellent music department. Double majors are common and performance opportunities plentiful even for non-majors. Same for theater to a lesser extent.</p>

<p>I don’t know enough about the distinction between economics at Tepper and economics at Dietrich to answer your question. CMU music department is well known, but you’d have to research the feasibility of taking music courses or double majoring/minoring along with either economics option.</p>

<p>I’d look at Emory too – both Emory College and Goizueta. This is where you might see some substantial merit aid.</p>

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<p>@Momrath - nice description of the meaning of the terminology “Liberal Arts”. </p>

<p>The Tufts/NEC program is definitely doable. There has been a lot of discussion of it on the Music Major Forum, and a regular poster’s son graduated last year with a double major BM degree from NEC (Violin and Composition) and a BA from Tufts in Cognitive Science. But you realize you would need to be admitted separately to both schools, and then to the joint program. Another school to look at - although not quite in the city, is Brandeis. Really, you have so many choices of match and reach schools - the hard part for you is finding the safety schools where you’d be happy to attend.</p>

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<p>The dual degree from Tufts/NEC is indeed basically impossible except for the most gifted and organized students. One or two may succeed but many students are actually discouraged by faculty from attempting it. So it’ll all depend on your degree of dedication - if you seriously envision a career as a music professional, the numbers of hours per day that you’ll need to dedicate to your art may make it impossible for you to pursue another major.
Based on your interests and stated dedication to music, I’d say your best bet is to choose a program NOT through a conservatory - perhaps a double major within a BA (which is not easy to start with).
You have lots of possibilities for matches and reaches - I’d say most programs cited above (Wesleyan, Williams, Tufts…) would fall under “reach” due to their high selectivity that makes admission a crapshoot. This year’s admission cycle was especially brutal at such schools and many applicants who had overshot find themselves “stuck”. Look at the results threads or at the numerous “rejected from everywhere except safety” threads.</p>

<p>Based on your stats, good safeties for music would include St Olaf and Lawrence. Beside music, Lawrence is very strong in physics and generally in the sciences; St Olaf in math, CS, study abroad (if that’s an interest of yours). St Olaf is more selective than Lawrence or generally “higher ranked” (whatever that means). I think they’re both part of the ACM program in Chicago that’s very good for students in economics.</p>

<p>Liberal Arts, as in national Liberal Arts Colleges, indicate a premium placed on connections between academic subjects and the necessity to develop critical thinking skills accross disciplines. A key belief is that more learning takes place if students interact with the material and are constantly challenged through discussion or personal interaction both with professors and highly motivated peers (we’re talking about colleges ranked in the top 50 or top 100.) Most of them are residential, in that students are required to live on campus, which is seen as a vital part of the academic experience. Typically they form a community and tend to have a distinct identity.
More broadly, Liberal Arts Colleges (referred to as LACs on this website) are colleges that focus on undergraduate students. Research universities focus on research. For instance, LAC professors are hired based on their ability to interact fruitfully and personally with undergrads and to involve them in their research/help them develop their own research. They teach 5 or 6 classes per year, most of them in small classes (which must be interactive and based on student discussion) and have extensive office hours. Research universities professors are hired based on prediction of research output and grant possibility/previous grant obtention. That research must be published in professional journals that are standard-bearers in their field, they must attend conferences, be invited to speak off campus, etc. Many of them tend to be more “famous” than their LAC peers. They teach 3-4 classes per year, with probably 1 or 2 of those in large undergraduate lectures. They must be excellent researchers first and can be excellent lecturers but may not have much direct contact with undergrads until they’re juniors or seniors. Many smaller discussion sections that follow-up on the lecture are led by Teaching Assistants, who are graduate students with research interests in synch with the professor’s specialty and who hope to be academics once they get their PHD. Both types of universities use/abuse adjuncts and that’s something you need to look into since adjuncts come and go and are unlikely to write recommendations. You also need to check that the TAs have a minimum threshold for spoken English (typically in the 19-22 range). </p>

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<p>You don’t seem to have serious aspirations for a career in music, so you’re going to have to think about what you’d be putting yourself through trying to double major with heavy music reqs, let alone double degree. At least that’s the impression that I’m getting from other posters.</p>

<p>It’s easier identifying research unis that have strength across both econ and music, and these schools are often found in your preferred larger centers, so maybe you’ve gravitated toward these larger schools. I suggested a few too, but on second thought, I’m not so sure that research unis are going to be your best bet if you’re bent on double majoring. The breadth requirements of a LAC may be easier for you to manage than the depth of major requirements of a larger university, for music in particular.</p>

<p>So the premise is that if you want a more do-able double major (with music), a LAC has advantages. Maybe there’s not much truth in that, though, and I hope others more experienced at comparing music majors can comment. </p>

<p>So here’s a QUESTION for other posters (that should be of interest to the OP): is it typically easier to double major, with music, at a LAC versus a research university? </p>