Looking for some advice here...on my transition into the finance world

Graduate School Business School - MBA
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<p>First, my background - </p>

<p>...I had great grades, test scores, and extracurriculars in high school. I attended a top 5 public university for my first year of college. I was a pre-med student there and had about a 3.0 g.p.a. However, I did not think I was getting much of an education there (too big!), and I missed playing football, so I transferred to the top liberal arts school in our state. I was still a pre-med student in my first year at the new school, but I decided that I wanted to be a high school football coach/teacher in my second year there, so I switched majors to History. I ended up doing my senior thesis in Psychology, and graduating (about a month ago) with about a 3.3 g.p.a. </p>

<p>...If I had chosen to focus on an area I really excelled in...like psychology, or economics...then I could have graduated with a much better g.p.a. But I instead chose to make college more of a learning experience, and I took courses in virtually every area of interest - History, English, Philosophy, Religion, Classical Studies, Spanish Language and Literature, Biology, Chemistry, Mathematics, Physical Education, Anthropology and Sociology, Economics and Business, Education, Political Science, Psychology, African Studies, American Studies, Environmental Studies, Health Studies, Human Development and Social Relations, International and Area Studies, Public Policy and Urban Affairs, Women's Studies, etc. Some of these areas I did really well in, some I really struggled in, hence, the mediocre g.p.a. In retrospect though, I am still glad I did what I did. I am a much more well-rounded person for having done it!</p>

<p>Second, my goal - </p>

<p>...I have decided that I wanted to pursue a career in finance. In particular, I want to go into Investment/Hedge Fund Management. Despite what you might think, I am doing this for the best of reasons - I believe that I will have more fun in this career than I would in any other (next to being a professional athlete, lol...the dream is finally dead)! </p>

<p>Third, my plan (so far, INPUT NEEDED) - </p>

<p>...Because I have no work experience in the finance world, very little educational experience (basic econ courses), and a mediocre undergraduate g.p.a., I think that it would be best to start of with a short (hopefully, one year) masters degree. THIS IS THE FIRST QUESTION I HAVE - What kind of masters degree should I get!? The obvious options are a masters degree in economics, or a masters degree in finance. I have heard that a masters degree in finance is sort of like an alternate to an MBA...and that's a level I'm not yet ready for, so maybe I should go for the masters in economics!? From what I have seen, even at prestigious finance universities, these programs are not that hard to get into! They're just expensive.</p>

<p>...HERE IS THE SECOND QUESTION THAT I HAVE - After I complete a masters degree in economics or finance, there are two paths that I could take en route to accomplishing my ultimate goal. I could try to get hired at the best investment/hedge fund management firm I could, get a few years work experience there, and then go for my M.B.A. OR I could apply for a PhD in Finance. Right now, based on what little I know, the PhD option seems best. It seems like it would be more focused on what I actually want to do...as opposed to a general all-around business program. It would be free over five or so years, as oppossed to $100,000 over two. It seems like it would give me a real edge against your basic M.B.A. graduate when it came to getting that entry level investment/hedge fund management job. And, it would give me a great career option for an early retirement - business school professor!!! (something that I would love doing after making a bit of money in the real world). </p>

<p>So, if you have read all of this, thank you very, very much for your time. If you have any input, guidance, suggestions, etc...I would really, really appreciate hearing them. Thank you to everyone in advance!</p>

<p>Best,</p>

<p>Dave</p>

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<p>Couple thoughts for you Dave:</p>

<p>Most of the masters in econ degrees are too theoretical to be very useful, while the master of finance degrees are generally very practical. You are incorrect that they are easy to get into however, in the last year, the top two MFin programs (Princeton and MIT) have had sub 10% acceptance rates, similar to that of the hardest MBA program to gain entry into (Stanford) and lower than any other MBA program. </p>

<p>Also, and sakky can give you more color on this, do not fall into the trap of thinking of the PhD as preparation for an entry level job. The PhD in finance is a long arduous marathon of financial theory that will prep you for an academic post. The masters programs are the way to go for practical training and job placement.</p>

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<p>Also, my thinking is quite similar to your own, where I thought about a PhD for a while because the option to teach later on is so appealing. But, keep in mind that you can serve as an adjunct once you reach a reasonable level of career success.</p>

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<p>Hey i am wondering a similar question too. What are some factors for getting into some top MFin (or MFin Egineering) programs at Princeton, MIT, NYU or Berkley etc. I heard taking a lot of math classes will help, true?</p>

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<p>Storch,</p>

<p>First of all, thank you very much for your input. Second, and I should have been more clear about this, I was saying that masters in economics programs seem to be pretty easy to get into, not masters in finance programs. From what I have seen, what you said seems to be pretty accurate. </p>

<p>…So, back to my first question - “what kind of masters degree should I get in preparation for either an MBA with an emphasis on finance or a PhD in finance.” It sounds like you are saying that the masters in finance is more practical. But it also sounds like you are saying I probably am not qualified to get into a good one yet. As though it is sort of on par with the MBA. I have only taken intro economics and mathematics courses at this point. So I would probably need to take a few summer courses to even get into a masters of economics program (which isn’t a problem). Which would you personally reccomend?</p>

<p>…And, back to my second question - “should I go for the MBA with an emphasis in finance…or a PhD in finance…in order to get a job at a hedge fund.” Everyone, including you, seems to say that the MBA is the better professional choice. But it just doesn’t make sense to me. Two years of general business courses vs. five years of courses focused on finance itself!? It seems like the PhD would clearly better prepare me for success in the finance world. And with the thousands of promising MBA candidates trying to get hired at hedge funds every year, it seems like a PhD would really give me an edge. Do you have any additional thoughts on that?</p>

<p>Thank you very much, again, for any help!</p>

<p>Sincerely,</p>

<p>Dave</p>

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<p>I don’t know enough about Masters in Econ programs to authoritatively recommend one. I would recommend you check out the LSE, Oxford and Duke Financial Econ programs to start. My personal viewpoint is that a Master of Finance will place you better, but you are right in assuming you need more math (although not necessarily more experience) to be a competitive applicant.</p>

<p>You are probably right that the PhD will place you better into a HF, but is is really worth the extra three or four years? The H/S/W grad with three years top tier experience following the MBA or the MIT/Princeton MFin grad with four years top tier experience following the MFin can do pretty much whatever they want. They could arguably be in a less desirable position that the Stanford/Chicago/MIT newly minted PhD, but these programs are incredibly difficult to gain entry to and graduate from (we are talking sub 1%).</p>

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<p>One other thought: if you really want to do a PhD, then do a masters in some sort of mathematics. This is the primary thing they care about for admissions.</p>

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<p>Storch,</p>

<p>The more I look into the Finance PhD programs, the less excited I am about them. It seems like these programs are reserved for pure mathematical geniuses (of which I am not). The average gmat scores of successful applicants at the second tier Finance PhD programs are similar to those of successful applicants at the top MBA program. So…I think that I am going to concentrate on getting into the best Finance-based MBA program possible.</p>

<p>So…here are my options:</p>

<h1>1) The traditional route. I have an old football coach that is an executive at the local Merrill Lynch wealth management institution. He could probably get me an entry-level position there. I could bust my arse there for 3-5 yrs, get some good reccomondations, and probably get into an alright MBA program. However, I’m probably still not going to be able to get into an elite MBA program because of my mediocre undergraduate gpa (about 3.2).</h1>

<h1>2) The less-traditional route. I could first get a masters in Econ or Finance. That’s probably going to give me more job options, but the Merrill Lynch gig might still be the best. So, if I bust my arse there (or wherever I end up) for 3-5 yrs, get some good reccomondations - with a better gpa and a masters degree - I am probably going to be able to get into a more elite MBA program. Right?</h1>

<p>Thoughts?</p>

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<p>will taking as many 300-level and 400-level courses as an undergrad help increase the chance for admission?</p>

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<p>getting the masters may help you a bit, but not as much as you would think, and possibly not as as much as another year of work exp. What it will do however is open up more job opportunities for you to get a better job pre-MBA.</p>

<p>The Merrill F.A. route is a tough one, the primary determinant of success is ability to cold call (not a lot of fun), and most people drop out of the program. Also, if you do well it would be tough to leave behind a book of business to go back to b school. </p>

<p>I wouldn’t worry about the GPA too much, the top schools will all take some1 with a 3.2 if the test scores and work exp offset it.</p>

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<p>that doesn’t sound good. i’m not too interested in the sell-side. maybe it would be better to get that masters first, just for the sake of opening up some more opportunities (and the gpa boost couldn’t hurt!).</p>

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<p>do b-schools even look at graduate gpa’s!? does that make up for a bad undergrad gpa!?</p>

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<p>Just saw this thread (and am new to the site), so here is a bit of stream of consciousness about your question/some of the others…</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Have you taken either the GMAT or GRE yet? If so, what are your scores? These will provide some context about potential opportunities for either MFin or MBA. Most of the top programs average around 710-720 on the GMAT; with your undergraduate background, I’d think you would probably want to exceed that. </p></li>
<li><p>I wouldn’t recommend the masters of econ if you want an MBA. It’s really not relevant to the field; similarly, it offers no additional value to IM firms, hedge funds, etc. A masters of finance is attractive, but consider the class profile of a school like MIT (pretty stellar).</p></li>
<li><p>Find a job (whether at Merrill or elsewhere) where you can build/gain the following skills: finance/accounting knowledge (ability to work through financial statements; comfort with ratios, 10-Ks, etc.); financial modeling experience (i.e., building models in Excel); valuation work (DCF, multiples, comps, etc.). This list isn’t exhaustive - and not all of it may be essential - but these types of things are important to have, both for your resume and when answering questions in interviews. Jobs with a big, public company in FP&A, treasury, etc. may offer these skills.</p></li>
<li><p>Consider whether you really love the market. I am not trying to judge you or cast doubt on your dreams, but make sure that this isn’t a passing interest. My friends who are preparing for jobs in investment management or at hedge funds can’t get enough of it - every week they’re pitching stocks to each other, managing personal portfolios, devouring the Journal and other, related websites. Do you enjoy all of that stuff? Is that something you’re doing already?</p></li>
</ol>

<p>From my experience, you should consider the major admissions criteria when evaluating your potential for getting into an MBA program: GMAT scores; undergraduate education; work experience; other distinguishing items (e.g., you competed in the Olympics). Test scores and undergrad GPA are pretty self-explanatory, so if your undergrad education is weak, you want to over-deliver on GMAT and work experience. So really try to crack the GMAT and find a job where you’ll have real responsibility and make a significant impact. Whether it’s a hugely prestigious global firm or a smaller, local company, it doesn’t matter too much (though it always helps to work at Goldman or McKinsey!); make sure you’re taking leadership, solving challenging problems, making an impact, etc.</p>