Looking for some input...

Parents Forum
1

Parent of two seniors. High performers, very self motivated. Good grades, good test scores, lots of ECs, good writers. They were the only two in their graduating class of 300 to be accepted to Wellesley or Cornell. However, as you know, neither of those schools offers any real merit aid. Net out of pocket at either would be something like $25K+ year for each based on our EFC. Kid 1 intersted in environmental law has three full ride opportunities, UB, Soka, and Pitt. Kid 2 is NMS interested in international relations, and has full ride at UB, full tuition at Pitt, U of Richmond, Fordham, and close to full ride at U of AL, U of OK.

They have never been pressured by us to take APs or do any ECs. It has all been self motivated. Of course we are super proud, but we have never put any pressure on them whatsoever. I really think that the smart move for Kid 1 is Pitt. Their honors program is very impressive, they really wooed her quite convincingly. The dean even sent her a first edition copy of a book they had discussed in her Chancellor’s Scholarship interview. From what we can gather, the Chancellor’s award is very selective and nearly everyone who is offered takes it. We toured Soka last week, and while I do think the small classes, financial resources, study abroad opportunities and close relationships with professors could also be great, I think Pitt offers a broader overall experience from many perspectives. And despite that beautiful SoCal weather, I do have concerns about the insular experience of such a small school, and the relatively unknown name outside of the SoCal area. Kid 2 loved Richmond. They too wined and dined her at her visit last week and she was very impressed with the honors program there, the other scholarship recipients she met, and the overall campus and city of Richmond. U of OK and U of AL both had impressive honors programs with hundreds of NMS enrolled, but not sure the big sports school atmosphere is really a good fit. SUNY Geneseo has offered her several scholarships as well that would put out of pocket there around 10K, but I think U of Richmond for about the same cost is much better endowed and would provide better opportunities.

My belief is that because they are so motivated and such thoughtful kids, they will do very well, wherever they go. It doesn’t seem to make any sense to me to shell out $100K or more each just to get the Cornell or Wellesley name, when they could be just as successful elsewhere. Am I crazy/mean to tell them those schools are out of the question? I like the idea of them being at a school where they can be in an honors program and among like minded peers, but still be among a larger community of kids that aren’t all stepping on each other to be number one, they can enjoy their summers, travel, and graduate with little or no debt. We also have another kid coming along three years behind them, so we have to consider that cost in our calculations too. Beyond the financial outlay, I also have concerns are that the pressure and atmosphere at a college like Cornell or Wellesley will make the whole experience more stressful, and much less enjoyable. The other schools are proving their interest with open wallets. At Cornell/Wellesly, they are just a small fish in a pond of superstars with no real financial incentives. Why not go to college where you can still have a great experience, graduate with little or no debt, be a big fish, and reap the rewards of all the hard work in high school by being recognized and appreciated for your achievments? VIP at a lesser school or just another admitted student at a top school. What do you guys think? I’m sure there must be plenty of you who’ve been there/done that.

2

It sounds to me as if both kids like their cost effective options? Are they pushing for Cornell/Wellesley? Unless they are really resistant, Pitt and UofRichmond seem like great options.

3

They do both love Pitt and Richmond, but they are in that zone where it’s decision time and they feel like they are wasting an amazing opportunity by leaving the Cornell/Wellesley offers on the table, and they are worried about making a bad decision. Again, I think they will do great regardless, so I think they are just procrastinating and maybe a bit sorry that money doesn’t grow on trees.

4

I was “just another kid” among some real superstars in college and I have to say- I loved it. I really had to stretch; I was never able to coast like I had been able to do in HS, I was among kids who seemed to find academics incredibly interesting which was not always the case in my HS.

So we encouraged our kids to be a little fish- nothing improves your game like playing with people who are better than you. It worked- largely because of their personalities (competitive with themselves, not with other people) and the colleges they ended up attending. And their choices have been validated now that they are grownups in the working world- doing what they love, still continuing to stretch, seeking out opportunities to be at the bottom of steep learning curves. Better to be the dumbest person in the room at work who can keep his/her mouth shut until he/she figures out what’s going on, vs. working with a bunch of dummies who will never get there. This seems to work for them.

I think you need to figure out whether you really can afford C and W with another kid coming through the pipeline. If you can’t- it’s an easy decision- your kids decide among the range of affordable options. So I’d be really clear with your kids- if you can’t afford it, take the pricey options off the table right now.

5

Did you previously specify a limit on your parental contribution before they made their application lists?

If so, then it should be a simple matter to eliminate all schools that are not affordable within that plus federal direct loans and a small amount of work earnings, but keep all of the others on the table.

6

Cornell and Wellesley financial aid is need based, not merit based.

It sounds like your kids got outstanding merit awards at the other schools.

And your kiddos like those other schools.

7

As a Cornell graduate and parent of a Cornell graduate I can tell you that its reputation as an extreme pressure cooker is based largely on the experience of premedical students, preveterinary students, and students in the engineering college. Life for students in other majors is much more reasonable. Your kid would be in some other major.

Another point: Some people agree that it’s better to be a big fish in a little pond, and others believe that the experience of being a little fish in a big pond can be enlightening. But that’s not what we’re really talking about here, is it? What we’re really talking about here is family finances. If your careful review of family finances leads you to the conclusion that Cornell/Wellesley have to be off the table, then I think you should own that decision and explain it to your kids in those terms.

8

@Marian It’s more a question of the value of those schools versus a school like Richmond or Pitt. Do they really offer an experience that is worth a six figure premium. It’s hard to get a good answer, as those who have attended Cornell or Wellesley will likely and understandably vote for those schools. They will certainly be challenged at any of the schools they are considering. But it would be great to get feedback from parents who have experience with sending kids to both Cornell/Wellesley and Pitt/U of R for a more insightful comparison.

9

Well, first of all, it depends on what the financial situation really is and whether you can even afford to send either to Cornell or Wellesley. If it’s off the table, they both seem enamored enough with Pitt and Richmond that you can steer them in that direction if that’s how it has to be (as parents we all possess that skill…). Like you said, they will do well wherever they are, so graduating from Pitt or Richmond with honors and probably phi beta kappa will not inhibit them from doing whatever they had wanted to do with the Cornell or Wellesley degrees.

My only comment - if U of R is only full tuition, what is the delta b/w all of the other expenses and your $25K EFC at the top colleges? If less than $10K/yr, that starts to sound like a premium worth paying (assuming of course it’s comfortable for you - if not, forget it). All of that assumes that your mature, self-motivated daughters won’t just go for the financially feasible options in the first place! Going with the free rides also puts them debt free and in great shape for grad school if that’s in the plans.

You should be proud of both of them that they’ve earned this difficult decision! Good luck!

10

The value- I think Pitt is a tremendous place and for a highly motivated kid, could be a fantastic opportunity. I am not as big a fan of Richmond- possibly colored by the kids I know from my neck of the woods who have gone there, none of whom are the studious type. That doesn’t mean those kids don’t exist- so this is one person’s view.

I don’t think you should link Pitt/Richmond btw. Two different kids, two different sets of needs presumably. Just because the Pitt/Richmond pairing may give you guys the lowest out of pocket, unless you’ve decided that you just can’t swing anything more, I’d encourage kid #2 to review the bidding to see if there are other options (potentially with a more intellectually minded student body) that she likes.

Not taking a swing at Richmond so no flames. But I don’t think it’s got the same student body as a place like Wellesley.

11

OP -

You have raised a lot of valid questions about return on investment, and stress levels for students. Wellesely is terrific for the right person, but would be the wrong choice for someone who doesn’t want to be surrounded by such an intense bunch of students. In many ways, Cornell is just another big state U. A student who finds one major or division to not be to their taste has a lot of options in the other divisions, so I think it is easier to dodge the pressure issues there. If the admission at Cornell is in one of the state divisions, one of the SUNYs might not be much different at all.

Do sit down and do the math for all three of your kids. While it is obvious that you need to know whether or not scraping together the pennies for Cornell and Wellesley for four years will damage your ability to repeat that action for kid #3, you also need to think through what kind of precedent this year’s decisions will set for #3’s expectations about evaluating offers of admission and aid packages three years from now.

If you haven’t run a formal calculator that compares all of the options, try this one: http://www.finaid.org/calculators/awardletteradvanced.phtml

12

@OffTheyGo - You stated your EFC is 25k. What FA did Cornell/Wellesley offer?

13

hi there i feel like I should comment because i am an alumna of one of the “little fish” schools you mention (well recognized reputation) and i now work at one of the schools that is offering your kids big scholarships (blossom: I am “working with a bunch of dummies” now, LOL). one of my kids goes to the scholarship school, but not with as big of a scholarship as you describe. my kid had a more prestigious choice available but chose the no debt road and is well challenged. while the reputations of Cornell and Wellesley remain strong, the reputations of schools like Richmond, Pitt, UB, etc are rising. If the kids are interested in the up and coming schools, this may be a good place for them. the students at four of the schools you are considering are doing amazing work.Please also consider the environment of each school, they are very different. Cornell = fairly remote but with campus life. Wellesley = near a city but not urban, really. Pitt = very urban yet with campus life. Richmond = also urban, with its own style.

14

The only state universities that might be considered comparable to Cornell academically are the few that stand head and shoulders above the crowd – such as Berkeley and UVa. Most state universities can’t even come close to Cornell’s academic quality.

This doesn’t reflect the high quality of Cornell’s statutory colleges. Nothing in the SUNY system can even come close to Cornell.

And yes, I’m prejudiced. Cornell is my alma mater and my daughter’s alma mater. But that means that I’m very familiar with the respect a Cornell degree receives from graduate schools and employers. A SUNY degree can’t begin to compete.

15

Not sure why Kid 2 would go to U. Richmond for international relations. I would think Fordham would be a better choice there. Pitt is an excellent choice for Kid 1, the Honors program there is terrific.

16

@Marian , thanks for contributing. The point of this thread wasn’t to have everyone just tell me what I wanted to hear. The fact that you defend it so vehemently says something about the quality of your experience at Cornell. That being said, I know some very successful people that went to SUNYs. Highly motivated, smart individuals have a way of making things happen. My girls mostly just wanted to be able to say they went to the same school as Andy Bernard. :slight_smile:

17

One can find very successful people who went to just about any college.
Based on the volume of students I’ve seen transferring to Cornell’s statutory colleges from the “best” SUNYs, and the comments of a couple I’ve spoken to, there is no question that post #13 is correct.

It’s also true that not everyone is up to the academic challenge though.

My own S didn’t want the challenge, didn’t apply. Had a great experience at a SUNY, No stress, etc, just like OP said. Didn’t get quite the grades he should have- possibly due to peer pressure/ influence on activities, etc. Has not so much as even a whiff of a job lined up for after graduation. Sure saved us money though.

That’s not to say in OPs case they shouldn’t take the money. It’s SO much money we’re talking about. And results are not guaranteed, from anyplace.

I could’ve sent at least one of my kids someplace for free. The way the money situation is now, I wish we could have done it. But there is no way that kid would have gone to that school, Unfortunately. Now that same kid will be going to grad school but “the cupboard is bare”. So to speak. Would those same grad programs be calling if she’d gone to the free school? Who knows what would have happened there.

18

I think you and your twins have fortune shining upon you. Take the full ride opportunities- they will meet many very smart people at those schools. They must be quite impressive to have earned these scholarships, so they will be likely to find great opportunities in their next undertaking. You can use the money you save, which is a lot, for something else that is also important. Graduate school or law school is not too far off in the future. They both say they are happy with these schools, so don’t worry too much!

19

I am not knocking any of the OP’s kids choices. For the right kid all of these are fantastic options.

But (in real life) I am hearing a lot of “why should he go to the school that doesn’t want him so much when the other school is rolling out the red carpet for him?”

All well and good- but know what you are dealing with, and know why a college is rolling out the red carpet. A need only school is NOT going to be buying a high stats kid with a big merit award. Frankly they don’t need to- all their admits have high stats. And that’s not their strategy of how to use their financial aid dollars. A need only school is NOT giving a kid a “named” scholarship with a spiffy fellowship tea for the awardees in September and making a fuss over them.

That doesn’t mean the college doesn’t want your kid- it admitted your kid after all, which is the only way they say “we want you”.

The merit schools are strategically buying high stats kids. It makes their mean scores and gpa go up; it makes them look like a happening school; it is a well thought out strategy for how to entice kids whose other choices are likely need only colleges.

In some instances, these truly are schools which are on the up and up- investing in faculty, research, upgrading programs and enticing star professors to come teach undergrads. And the academic quality of the student body is increasing as well (that’s what the merit awards can do) which is a win-win. And in some instances, these are schools which have figured out that increasing the stats of the incoming students with merit awards is a lot cheaper than investing in faculty, research, upgrading programs etc. So it’s a higher quality student body for sure- at least at the high end… without a lot of beef to back it up.

For some kids it doesn’t matter. Either because they are interested in a program which is already strong, and the presence of a peer group is all they need. And the overall campus vibe works for them anyway- again, a win-win. And for other kids it matters- the classes they want are only offered every other year, or the professor they really wanted to supervise a senior project is emeritus and hasn’t been replaced with someone in the same discipline, or they find the classroom discussion in their seminars repetitive and boring (kids who haven’t done all the reading and not all that interested in doing a deep dive on the subject).

So I’m being something of a CC contrarian- Yes, follow the money (and if you can’t afford the pricey options this is all academic- tell your kids you can’t afford it and have them choose from the affordable options). But have your kids look carefully at the academic programs when they are comparing-it’s nice to be dazzled by being wanted, but at the end of the day, college isn’t summer camp or prom. Lock down the academic offerings- and if they are what your kids are looking for, taking the money is a win-win.

re: the stress factor- again, you know your kids and we don’t. Some kids thrive in that kind of environment and others wither. Some kids don’t want to be the smartest kid in the class in college, having done that for much of their schooling already. I wouldn’t rule out Cornell and Wellesley because of stress- I’d rule them out because you can’t afford it, or you couldn’t afford it without risking your third kid’s education and/or retirement.

20

@blossom have definitely considered the points you mentioned. We know that a big part of recruiting our kids is about making the school more competitive. Though I have no worries that any of the institutions they are considering are simply racking up high value students at the cost of academic programming. I think the academic rigor, challenge, and overall fit are there with all of the schools they are considering.