Looking more closely at Ohio's public engineering schools

Parents Forum
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<p>Miami, you like to repeat this endlessly but it’s not true.</p>

<p>Look at the recruiting calendars at MIT, Cal Tech, Purdue, UIUC, Michigan, Cornell. If Cornell’s graduates were being recruited by engineering firms in Ithaca NY they’d all be on food stamps. It is a top notch engineering school located in the middle of nowhere, and their graduates get recruited by global companies who recruit all over the world. Ditto UIUC (how many engineers can Urbana absorb in any year?)</p>

<p>Boeing cannot find the number and quality of aero/astro engineers it needs by hiring locally. Ditto Cisco, HP, Merck, Procter and Gamble, United Technologies, Novartis, etc.</p>

<p>And your comment “for any engineering major UG really does not matter” is woefully out of date. Nanotechnology did not exist when your husband and his friends were in college. Most of the bioengineering disciplines are less than 15 years old. Many of the advances in materials science and chemical engineering are accelerating now due to interdisciplinary work that wasn’t being done even at big research powerhouses 20 years ago.</p>

<p>I don’t know what kind of engineering your husband does, but if he were to walk into a nanotech lab at a top research university he would be blown away by what students are learning now.</p>

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<p>So Miami is a bad choice for engineering? Maybe I should make my kid take it off her list.</p>

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<p>I didn’t say Miami is a bad choice for engineering. I said that the statement that all engineers get hired in the region where they went to college is factually incorrect, and that the statement that “it doesn’t matter” where you go to college if you are majoring in engineering is also incorrect.</p>

<p>Take a look at the Miami recruiting calendar (should be online and if not, your kid can email career services and ask them to email the schedule). If the kinds of companies and roles that Miami kids are getting hired for appeal to your kid then great! If your kid wants aero/astro and none of the big aerospace, defense, or components companies recruit at Miami, then it’s worth digging further to find out why (disclaimer- I have never recruited at Miami so cannot comment on the quality of the program, and do not know if they even have aero/astro.)</p>

<p>But engineering is not a fungible discipline. Don’t study civil engineering if you want to design airplanes. Sorry to make this somewhat ridiculous point, but there are a lot of posters who claim that it doesn’t matter where you go to college if you want to become an engineer which is ludicrous. It’s like saying that you can major in MIS anywhere and get hired as a computer scientist at Cisco or Google when you graduate.</p>

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<p>Thanks @blossom. We’ll look at the recruiting calendar.
We took OSU off her list and out Miami on because of the merit aid chances, but I’m wondering if it’s a mistake - maybe she could have a chance at the Morrill Diversity scholarship at OSU.
She doesn’t want to apply to both bec she feels like her list will be too long.</p>

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<p>Sorry UT = University of Toledo in my post. I think the other huge thing is fit for the student. Both my kids have stepped on some campuses and loved them. Other campuses they loved on paper, they hated on the visit. For example, DD loved Miami Ohio on paper. When she visited, didn’t like the feel of the campus (not a bad school, just not for her!). They are the ones spending the four/five years there!</p>

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<p>@MiamiDAP‌ It’s funny that you mention the whole “love OSU/hate Miami and vice versa” thing. My daughter absolutely loved OSU from the moment we first visited campus and that love never stopped. She very much disliked Miami, and never even considered it. She said it felt too “preppy” and insulated. She also felt their electrical/computer engineering program was lacking.</p>

<p>I worried a lot about how she would handle the size of OSU. We don’t come from a small town, exactly, but there’s a big difference between a high school with less than 2k students and a school like OSU. I worried that she’d be lost, lonely, and overwhelmed. I couldn’t have been more wrong. So far she loves everything about OSU and has had zero problems adjusting. I haven’t even heard a single professor complaint, which is amazing considering she was a kid who complained about every teacher she ever had.</p>

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<p>Be careful judging a school based on merit aid alone. Other nebulous monetary factors enter in. You need to look at the final price. For example are there a lot of hidden fees such as engineering surcharges, lab fees, mandatory city bus fees, requirements to live on campus several years at inflated room and board vs. off campus. Most merit aid will defray cost of tuition, but it is unusual to get merit for room and board. Health insurance requirements. Even something as unusual as high boarding costs that require you to eat in a certain cafeteria. If a student doesn’t like the food they end up eating off campus at additional cost and money left on account at the end of the semester. Does the bookstore list the ISBN numbers for the books so they can be purchased on line for less ? Is there a contract between the school and the bookstore that makes online buying difficult ? Engineering books are super expensive typically $150+ each. (Check out <a href=“Department of Higher Education”>Department of Higher Education; for more on fees. The site also lists financial aid info for Ohio schools). Are core classes offered multiple times/year ? If not and a class is missed for whatever reason (illness or internship) you just added a year’s tuition (no scholarship for 5th year pgm) until graduation.</p>

<p>Also look at the minimum required GPA to maintain the scholarship, and chances of getting it reinstated if the GPA falls below the minimum. Many universities entice the student with a great scholarship, but the fine print says maintain a 3.5 average, difficult to do in engineering. Many colleges (primarily private) give a decent scholarship for incoming freshmen, but by the time they graduate the cost of tuition has risen so high the student can’t afford it.</p>

<p>Use <a href=“College Navigator - National Center for Education Statistics”>http://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/&lt;/a&gt; to compare schools based on cost of attendance, freshman student retention (my favorite I believe it is a great indicator of the students opinion of the school), 4 5 and 6 year graduation rates, national test scores and GPA. I guarantee it will be an eye opener when you do the comparisons. Most important, select schools based on the major or interest, if they don’t offer the degree, cross it off. It’s difficult to pin down the exact cost of attendance, especially over a 4 year span. Get in the ball park of what you can afford and don’t try to find the least expensive. A $4K or $6K/yr scholarship is a lot, but as an engineer the overall payback if you don’t get the scholarship will be less than a year. Don’t be penny wise and pound foolish for a relatively small amount. Once you narrow down the choices go during school to talk to the departments, look at the facilities, watch student’s body language and observe campus life. Go on a weekend to see if there is any life on campus. </p>

<p>When my son was looking for BME he was interested in Toledo, Cincinnati, Miami, Akron and OSU. Miami was ruled out based on strength of major curriculum. In March after visiting everywhere except OSU he wanted me to put the deposit for his room at Cincinnati. As an engineer myself I research things ad nauseum and told him only after we visit OSU. Once he was on campus and saw what campus life was like he was in. There was something going on 24 hours a day. Everywhere you turned there was a resource for whatever the need (hence 93% retention). The BME department wasn’t yet accredited (they needed 1st graduating class) but based on all the other engineering departments I was sure that wouldn’t be a problem (BME is now accredited). There are only 75 students in his BME class. The campus visit with the OH-IO (yes they do do that) made my son feel welcome. 3 years and 3 mirror lake jumps later he has never regretted his decision. BTW I attended Cleveland State 40 years ago. The engineering program is nowhere near what it once was, and it wasn’t even a consideration. I work at an international automation company and our location’s interns and new hires typically come from OSU, Case and occasionally Cincinnati.</p>

<p>If you are that financially bound, consider a satellite school. I know OSU’s have a lower tuition and offer more scholarships, and the student can move to the main campus when they are in the later years of the program.</p>

<p>Sorry for the long post, there are soooo many things involved selecting a college I got carried away.</p>

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<p>My advice: check out the placement rates at each school for the specific engineering major. Some of the smaller schools which seem on the surface to have weaker programs have much higher placement rates.</p>

<p>We checked out all of these schools a few years ago with my oldest DS. He chose OSU because of the strength of the major and because he wanted a really big school. Only later, when he struggled to get internships, did I track down placement rates. He’s an Aerospace Engineering major, and the OSU stats for the last year published indicated 40% got jobs, 20% went to grad school, and 40% still looking. Other engineering majors weren’t much better. Meanwhile UD reports far higher placement.</p>

<p>DS is now a senior…has never had an internship…and I’m praying he gets a job. In fairness, he doesn’t have top of the class grades, but with a 3.2 he is above the 3.0 cut-off line.</p>

<p>He loves his classes…finds them very interesting especially this year…and he loves OSU. I just hope he gets a job after all this!</p>

<p>I’ll be checking placement rates first as my other kids go to college.</p>

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<p>@buzzlightyear3‌ where did you find the placement rates for OSU? Just visited there. Can’t recall if they shared this info.</p>

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<p>Remember those statistics are based on surveys, emails, placement via the career services etc. They aren’t necessarily accurate if a student doesn’t update his status. Unfortunately aero engineering is a slowing market so I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a larger number looking for employment. Pretty much every stat about the engineering program in 2013: <a href=“https://engineering.osu.edu/sites/engineering.osu.edu/files/uploads/uess2013.pdf”>https://engineering.osu.edu/sites/engineering.osu.edu/files/uploads/uess2013.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>A great resource for information is the American Society of Engineering Education. They have a publication of college profiles that breaks down engineering schools at each college. Here is the link: <a href=“College Profiles”>ASEE.org; I have a freshman engineering student at a non-Ohio college and used it to get enrollment data by gender and major. I wanted to see the numbers who started in her major and what the attrition was each year. You can see money spend on research etc. Just play around with the profiles and you can gain a ton of information. </p>

<p>Now my DS graduated from OSU so I can share my experience. He wasn’t engineering but his roommates were. Both roommates (one is CE and the other EE) had tons of job choices. OSU did a great job with their career fairs and job placements. Roommates spend the year interviewing all over the country. One got a job with AT&T in Dallas and the other one got a job in Seattle. Both are making good money. Also OSU has an incredible alumni network. It is this network that is helping my son find a job now that he has changed career plans (long story). </p>

<p>My DS had a very positive experience at OSU and we are OOS. OSU works hard at making the school “small”. In fact there were times my DS found the school very small. He as well as his roommates graduated in 4 years and trust me that is a big deal to us out here in CA where grad rates are horrible. There are a ton of programs to participate in and OSU look to bring opportunities to the students. Other thing to think of is what happens if your child decides engineering is not for them. What will be the other options available?? I work with students and many tell me they want to be engineers but at least half switch majors. </p>

<p>OSU works hard at making their campus safe. In addition to the escort program and other safeguards we get Buckeye Alerts about things. The area around campus is nice. I do not like how the landlords are to students in the off-campus housing area off of High Street. Way too high of rents for what a student gets but they have a captive audience. OSU is really trying to change that. Now that students have to live on campus for two years I think it will change. My DS lived in his frat house his second year and I know his GF lived in her sorority house her second year. She had a great apartment off of High and found the area very safe. </p>

<p>If you haven’t done so already i recommend you visit the campuses if possible. Students get a vibe from campus visits and it just has to click for them. Selecting a college is both based on research (like what you are doing now) and the “vibe”. The college can have the greatest engineering program in the world but if the student doesn’t feel the vibe it just doesn’t matter. My youngest who is now a freshman at Georgia Tech spent her summer after soph year studying at Caltech in a program sponsored and paid for by Google. Caltech which many will agree is a great engineering school was never going to make her list. Although she liked the academics and did well at her program she said the “vibe” was just not there for her. In contrast the minute DD step on the campus of Georgia Tech as a high school sophomore and her subsequent visits senior year it always had the “vibe” for her and at the top of her list. She has been in school five weeks now and loves it. Academic challenging but with the right mix of social and athletic activities for her. </p>

<p>Good luck. Although it may not seem like it now I am sure your child will end up at the right place for her. </p>

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<p>" I know OSU’s have a lower tuition and offer more scholarships"

  • As I mentioned before OSU Merit offer was miniscule in comparison to Case Merit offer. Case has more resources with smaller student body to spread them. OSU at the end may be (it was for my D.) more expensive. But OSU was also not fitting her personally very well, you got to consider it as one of the top criteria. D. did not like the huge size of OSU, which may be attractive to others. OSU actually wanted her (but did not offer much $$) and the program director has actually guessed easily which program D. has chosen over OSU program.</p>
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<p>That’s right. OSU merit is spread thin and not huge in amount unless you’re be of the super lucky ones. </p>

<p>I disagree that the area around OSU is “nice.” Um, no. There is a good deal of relatively serious crime, and Buckeye Alerts merely tell you about crime that has happened. Upper Arlington is nice (west of OSU), but east of High St, is not nice. Many feel the only reason OSU is going to require 2 years on campus is to pay for the new dorms they are building. </p>

<p>OSU has good things, some very good things. Whether it’s the right place for D is still up in the air. She’s not gotten a good vibe, or at least a convincing good vibe, anywhere yet.</p>

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<p>@Janniegirl – usually you can find the stats by searching the university’s website for “placement rates” or by browsing through the career services page until you find a report there. If you can’t find them published, I’d do a direct request to career services for the data.</p>

<p>@jjw6455 – Yes, that’s the report I was referencing…might be one year newer. While I agree that Aero Engineering has one of the lower placement rates, the placement rates for all of the majors fall well below that of the other Ohio schools I checked (after my son had already started at OSU.) If I recall correctly, there was a footnote indicating 80% of the students responded to the OSU survey…that’s an incredibly high response rate. Even if the kids who had jobs didn’t bother to respond, the missing 20% doesn’t make up for the low placement rates.</p>

<p>Based on the experience of my son and his friends, here’s my personal opinion of OSU engineering fit.</p>

<p>Category 1 – if you have a son or daughter who is smart, suited for engineering, and a real go-getter, he/she could do well at OSU and actually would do well at any engineering school. These are the kids work their butts off to get great grades, assertively seek out every opportunity, build relationships with professors and advisors, etc. </p>

<p>Category 2 – if you have a smart kid but one that isn’t as proactive, has some hesitancy in approaching professors/advisors, doesn’t have any family connections in engineering, and gets good greats but not great grades, I suspect they will do better at different school.</p>

<p>Category 3 – if you have a kid that doesn’t get great grades for whatever reason (passion or aptitude isn’t really in engineering, encountered some kind of challenge that led to lower grades – e.g. financial, health, or personal issues-- and who doesn’t have any family connections that will compensate for all of that, he/she will likely struggle in many schools and will be doomed at OSU.</p>

<p>My kid fits in Category 2. He’s a smart kid (34 ACT), was well prepared for college (attended highly selective private school that challenged him in high school), and is very passionate about his major (orders text books early and reads them for fun.) He is also well balanced and socially well adjusted. He’s president of a club sport which gets him great physical exercise, provides him with a productive social outlet, and via which has had an opportunity to build leadership skills…he got the club sport reinstated to “good standing” with OSU by filing by-laws, a budget, and whatever other paperwork they required. However, he falls short of “Category 1.” He has good, but not great, grades by engineering standards as he has a 3.2. He’s hesitant to reach out to professors and build relationships. He looked for opportunities to get involved in research/projects, but when professors didn’t respond to his emails and he couldn’t find the groups at involvement fairs he figured he’d do it “some other time.” He scheduled time with his advisor and asked where to find the design projects…when she directed him to a website with missing or outdated contacts and told him she “thinks” the building with all the groups was X but where he couldn’t find a single office, he let it drop. I believe OSU is failing this group. </p>

<p>I have to believe that at the schools with higher placement rates there’s some different behavior: professors likely return student emails. Advisors likely have the info on how to get involved in research or design projects. Professors likely know their students and help them make connections. The schools that have 90%+ placement rates have to be doing something to help all of those Category 2 kids and some of the Category 3 kids get jobs.</p>

<p>Again, all that said, my DS absolutely loves OSU. I just hope that after paying $80K+ for his education (he did get a $1400/year scholarship with his 34 ACT) that he ends up with a job.</p>

<p>In the meantime, when I help my 2nd and 3rd kids with their college search, I will be checking those placement rates first.</p>

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<p>I guess it’s all relative, but it’s worth saying that the area around OSU has dramatically improved over the past 25 or so years. I walked down Chittenden towards High last month for the first time in several years and honestly didn’t recognize it. Run down peeling paint buildings all replaced by new ones, with neat little restaurants on the High St end.</p>

<p>Still, it is a city.</p>

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<p>@buzzlightyear3‌ Thanks for your insights on OSU. Graduated from there a long time ago and I would say had similar experiences to your son albeit in a different field (chemistry). For some of these reasons my oldest S is studying engineering in a smaller setting with more personalized attention. Middle S remains interested in OSU, although we are now out of state. Good to get an insider’s view of the current “buckeye situation”.</p>

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<p>I glanced at university of Michigan’s job placement and while it isn’t broken down by degree they show 37% continuing on for further degrees as well <a href=“http://career.engin.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/30/2013/11/AnnualReport1213.pdf”>http://career.engin.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/30/2013/11/AnnualReport1213.pdf&lt;/a&gt;. So the large number OSU has going on for further degrees seems comparable.</p>

<p>Yes, the note did say 80% responded, but they don’t go into detail of where in the employment cycle the survey was made. If the 80% did the survey in the spring many of the students probably didn’t have commitments yet. Typically we interview on campus early in the fall then schedule interviews at our location in the early part of the year, but some students aren’t ready to apply in the fall. By the time spring rolls around companies are done interviewing and have made offers so many students who didn’t interview early are stuck scrambling for interviews. The survey would be more accurate if they established initial dates, and then made follow up calls later to complete the survey. I find it hard to believe that 25% of the engineers never found engineering positions.</p>

<p>I’m surprised by your son’s scholarship. The website lists the current guaranteed scholarships at $6K/year for a 32 ACT and upper 3% of class. A $3K for 29 and upper 10%. Your son’s seems very low. Was the high school he attended extremely competitive ? I know some students where attending a highly competitive high school ended up hurting themselves with respect to rankings. My son entered in 2010 and got a $4k based on a 33 ACT score and upper 10%, and then got an additional $4k stem scholarship which I don’t think they offer anymore.</p>

<p>The campus is as safe as any other in Ohio. A number of crimes with 50K students, but on a percent basis it is comparable if not safer than most Ohio Publics. Like any urban campus there are off campus places you should be careful at. If you are out after midnight off campus you shouldn’t be alone. Common sense no matter where you attend. I use <a href=“http://spotcrime.com/”>http://spotcrime.com/&lt;/a&gt; to watch crime in the area. Typically it peaks around October when students feel over confident and aren’t careful. Then it tapers down considerable for the rest of the school year.</p>

<p>I’m not pushing OSU, everyone has to find the school that is right for them. But I will offer my observations and things I found out as I researched. As I tell my kids I don’t care where they go, as long as they make a well informed decision. I have 2 college students 1 at OSU and one at Duquesne both chose schools that were best for them. I have a 3rd who will be in college in 2 years. She can choose wherever she wants as long as she has good reasons.</p>

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<p>@jjw6455 – Yes, my DS went to a very competitive high school. Officially, they didn’t rank, but I imagine somewhere in the application process his school revealed that if they did rank he wouldn’t have been in the top 10% of the class. At the same time, most of the kids in that high school are top 10% kids already as they have a competitive admissions process. Further, my son had some extenuating circumstances as he missed about 40 days of school in both his sophomore and junior years in high school due to Crohn’s Disease (which is now thankfully under control), but despite that he graduated with an A average with a schedule that included a ton of APs. All of that was covered in his app, but I suspect OSU just put his ACT and rank into the computer which applied a formula and spit out a low scholarship on the other end.</p>

<p>Also, I definitely am not concerned about the % of kids who choose to go to Grad School…no issue there. My concern is the relatively high percent of kids who aren’t employed and who also aren’t in Grad School. Typically those surveys are done some number of months after graduation…at least 3 months if not longer. The fact that OSU has only published data for the 12/13 school year at this point is an indication they are allowing ample time.</p>

<p>To be fair, I do think OSU has a lot to offer. Some kids will take advantage of every opportunity and will be quite successful. My DS could have seized many opportunities but failed to do so, and that’s on him. I also suspect there are others that have similar personalities to my kid though…smart kids, passionate about the work, very personable, but lacking some of the confidence and drive to assertively take the steps that are required to take advantage of the available opportunities. I’ll go out on a limb and stereotype a little further: a fair number of college-age, male engineering students tend a bit toward the introverted end of the continuum…especially when it comes to interacting with professors or authority figures. Further, many need a little more time to grow up and assume more responsibility. Kids that fit that profile may not do as well at a school like OSU.</p>

<p>Just to reiterate one more time though, my son is very happy at OSU. He continues to try to talk his sister into attending, and he’s chosen to spend his summers on campus as well. Further, he’s challenged by and really enjoying his classes. Those placement rates just make me very nervous, so we’ll have to see how this all turns out.</p>

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<p>Another site that is good for looking in depth at engineering schools is <a href=“http://profiles.asee.org/profiles/”>http://profiles.asee.org/profiles/&lt;/a&gt; . Contains #apps, entrance exam scores, enrollment in individual departments as well as research $ per department.</p>