low LSAT score and low GPA...any advice?

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>Hello,</p>

<p>I'm new to the site, and am looking for some advice. </p>

<p>I graduated in June with 2 degrees (politics and philosophy) but my GPA was only 3.2. I thought "ok, no big deal..I'll just do good on the LSAT"...well, that did not happen. I was quite suprised with my score of a pathetic 150. </p>

<p>I don't have specific schools that I am trying to get into, I just don't want to have to attend some obscure school just because it's the one I got into. But at the same time I am hesitant to retake the test because then I would not be submitting applications until mid to late January, and this would put me at a disadvantage given that most schools using rolling admissions. </p>

<p>I'm just completely confused, and could use some advice!!</p>

<p>Should I retake the test in December, or just apply to the schools that I can get into with my numbers?</p>

<p>~Thanks in advance!!</p>

2

<p>First of all, you were "surprised" by your 150. That means one of two things:
1. You took a lot of practice tests, did better than that, and got a very bad score; or
2. You had not prepared for the LSAT, had not taken previously administered tests under timed conditions, and just assumed that you would do well.</p>

<p>If the problem is the first one, figure out what went wrong (did you mis-bubble? run out of time? get psyched out?) and re-take in December. Send in your applications and wait for the new score to hit. </p>

<p>If the problem is the second one, not to be overly blunt, but you're a flake and you shouldn't go to law school. </p>

<p>Second issue - to apply late?</p>

<p>Yes, you can apply late and get in. Yes, you are at a slight disadvantage. Realistically, most decisions are not made until February or March, anyway. You can always have your apps ready to go (do all the work in the 3 weeks that you wait for your LSAT score) and send them in, literally, the day that your December scores come in the mail.</p>

<p>You can also apply for admission in 2008. That way, you could actually spend about three solid months prepping for the LSAT. You've already taken time off; take more time off. </p>

<p>Unless your 3.2 is from MIT, you'll have a really tough time getting into law school with that and a 150. I do know people with GPAs that low who have gotten into some excellent schools, but they all got LSATs in the 170s and went to excellent undergrad schools and/or had very tough majors.</p>

<p>As for applying to schools you can get into with your numbers... that is a question that ONLY you can answer. I can tell you what I would do, if I were you - which is to not apply. Please understand that your career opportunities will be severely limited if you graduate from a low-ranked school. While there are many people (and some of the posters on this board) who have had very successful, fulfilling legal careers without going to T14s, I do think that is something to consider very carefully. Law school is very, very expensive. Statistically, you will almost never make a return on your investment if you graduate from a very low-ranked school. </p>

<p>Before you apply to ANY law school - and I don't care if it's Harvard or New England School of Law - you should determine what their career opportunities are. Find out where actual graduates work. Find out what their debt is. Find out what they earn. More than that, if there are a handful who do very well (and there are, from any school), ask what was special about them. Was it the older student who had connections? A particularly ambitious student who had been lured away from higher-ranked schools? A night student who went to the most convenient law school for her and has a fire in her gut? The half-black, half-Hispanic lesbian Law Review editor? In short, are those success stories going to be you? Can this school offer you the road you want with your life?</p>

3

<p>ariesthana,</p>

<p>i think you offer a slightly too grim of view on the matter. there are over 200 law schools in america, and only 14 of them are in the "T14." that would mean that vast majority of lawyers in this country didn't attend top schools - just as the vast majority of college grads didn't attend "top colleges."</p>

<p>the facts are people - especially people on this website - think that the only successful people in the world came out of a handful of schools and had 4.0s from those schools. its just not the case.</p>

<p>cali,
your gpa will limit where you can go regardless of your lsat scores. but don't worry - its not as if going to the number 80 law school vs. the number 120 law school will make a difference in your life. i think you should take them again, apply to a couple schools and then decide if your job options out of school are better than going to law school. maybe go at night and work during the day - limiting how much you have to take out in loans. </p>

<p>1 thing to remember - and its something my parents always tell me when i debate about law school - only go if you're absolutely certain you want to practice law. law school is way too hard and expensive to go through if you're not going to practice.</p>

4

<p>use the lsat/gpa seach option at </p>

<p><a href="http://officialguide.lsac.org/Search/Template/LSATGPA.asp?SidString=%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://officialguide.lsac.org/Search/Template/LSATGPA.asp?SidString=&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Plug in your numbers, click likelihood and descending and you will get a listing of schools where you are likely to be admitted</p>

5

<p>jags,
thanks for washing out the bitter taste that ariesathena left in my mouth!</p>

<p>ariesathena,
contrary to what you seem to believe, I am NOT a complete moron who just woke up 3 months ago and decided to take the LSAT. I spent well over a year preparing for the test, but I did not have the money to take a class or get a tutor. In the days before the test I was scoring 158-160 on the practice tests, and that's why I was suprised by my score.</p>

<p>I am thinking about either retaking in December, even though my app will be at the bottom of the pile, or just waiting a year and applying for 2008 (my decision to "take more time off" is not as simple as ariesathena thinks it should be)...anyone have any thoughts on these options?</p>

6

<p>Cali4,
In my interpretation I believe AA was not calling you an idiot. She was giving her objective opinion to the matter. Whether or not you took offense to what she said should not be her fault.</p>

<p>She is right in what she says for the most part, and I would heed to her advice. What she would do is exactly what I would do in your position.</p>

<p>When she says lower-ranked schools I don't think she is talking about schools that arent exclusively in the T14. IN NY for instance, Cardozo(53), Bklyn(58), Fordham(32) and SJU (80) have great job prospects even though they are outside of the top 14. I think she is talking more along the lines of tier 3-4 schools where the best job opp. one can get is most likely a Public Defenders office.</p>

<p>If you feel that your'e ready for the Dec test, then take it. If not, wait for June and retake again.</p>

7

<p>Cali4,
I am quite familiar with ariesathena's knowledgeable postings on this board, and I'm very confident that she was simply doing her best to offer you her opinion and advice. Should you disagree with her, you need only choose to ignore what she said. </p>

<p>Personally, I think that her advice regarding your choices from this point are right on target. </p>

<p>sally</p>

8

<p>fatjoe,</p>

<p>My instinct to become defensive toward ariesathena's comments was because I felt like she was kicking me while I was down.</p>

<p>I undestand why everyone said what they did and I am greatly appreciative for all the advice that I have received so far.</p>

9

<p>Usually, when people say that they were surprised by their score, they indicate that their practice tests were in another range. Absent that, there were two possibilities. Believe it or not, there are people who just assume that they will do well on the LSAT (hang around these boards long enough and you'll hear high schoolers who say "assume an LSAT of 170"). I did not mean to offend you - just had zero idea where you are coming from. </p>

<p>If you've done well on the LSAT (and 160 is very respectable), then re-take it when you are sure that you can get that score. I know that taking an extra year off can be difficult, but it will be well worth it in the long run if you get into a 2d tier school instead of a 4th tier school. The last thing you want to do is to re-take the test and get a 150 again, which only solidifies the value of your first test. This is not the SAT; you really should only take it once, twice, max.</p>

<p>To clarify "lower ranked school:" if you are going to a top 100 school, I don't have many reservations if you are really, in your heart, sure that law is the right path for you. </p>

<p>Lower-ranked schools are not any cheaper. Many 3d and 4th tier law schools will still cost you $150,000-$200,000, plus initerest on the loan. IMO, before you take on that kind of debt, you should make sure that you can pay it back. When the average starting salary out of many of those schools is $50,000/year and half the class doesn't have a job at graduation, I worry about kids who are taking on that much debt. If you earn $50,000/year, you'll pay about 1/3 of that in taxes; your loans will be over $20,000/year, leaving you with not much at all to live on. The other option is to extend your loans over 20 years, in which case you would be paying about $15,000/year and be repaying loans into your 40s. </p>

<p>There is a massive difference between the job opportunities from a low-ranked college and a low-ranked law school. Law job opportunities are directly proportional to the quality of school that you go to. There is a massive, massive difference between the job opportunities at a top school and those at a 2d or 3d or 4th tier school. Please be aware of this; in a perfect world, it wouldn't happen, but law is far from ideal.</p>

10

<p>Ariesathena is very knowledgeable about law school and the law school process, and I've learned a great deal from her (although I only started posting again recently, I've been reading this site for awhile). </p>

<p>What she says about attending Tier 3 and 4 law schools is very true. The only thing I would say is that you do need to look at the placement of graduates afterwards. For example, if you look in the Pittsburgh area, many lawyers are from either Duquesne or Pitt. I don't know about Pitt's ranking, but I do know that Duquesne isn't ranked high at all. Yet I know many successful attorneys in the Pittsburgh area who are Duquesne Law School alums. Same thing with Philadelphia. Many are from Widener, which if I remember correctly is also ranked very low. </p>

<p>In general I would have to agree though, that your options are very limited if you go to a low-ranked school.</p>

11

<p>Very well said by all. </p>

<p>And to others: Listen to AA economic advice. She knows what she is talking about (except when it comes to NYC tax, right AA? :P)</p>

12

<p>:p to FatJoe. </p>

<p>If anyone wants my (slightly outdated, easily updated) spreadsheet re: cost and average starting salaries, they are welcome to it. Long story short: the ratio of average debt to average starting salary is usually 1:1 for good schools. Kids with less debt do have the freedom to take lower-paying jobs; kids who go to schools in low COL areas often work in low COL (and therefore low salary) areas - but it all evens out. This holds true through the top 30 schools. After that, some schools have 1:1, others are more like 1:1.5 or 1:2. </p>

<p>Thanks, guys. :)</p>

13

<p>To the OP, I think you should prepare better and retake.</p>

<p>life after law school is much more difficult if you graduate from a t3 or t4 than t2 or t1.</p>

<p>but from what i've heard, it is possible, even probably, to attend a t3 or t4, graduate in the top half of your class, network, get a job, and within ten years make in the 70-80 k range, or maybe more or a little less.</p>

<p>and lets face it. most students who attend law schools have useless lib. arts educations. I think, even with the debt, most (NOT ALL) graduates of t3's and most t4's improve their financial situation in the long run.</p>

14

<p>i have an uncle who is a corporate lawyer in one of NYC's biggest and most prestigious law firms.</p>

<p>this is what he told me</p>

<p>and he didnt mention T-14, he actually said top 20, yes TOP 20!!!</p>

<p>he kept on saying that if you don't go to a top law school, ur career will be that much harder.</p>

<p>he basically said, if it means going to a "bad" law school, then maybe its not worth going to law school at all</p>

<p>there are just so many lawyers in this country, and to be just another one, ur job prospects aren't looking that great. Unfortunately, law school is not like med school. Any doctor can make a great living and where he goes is not important at all (and yes i know this is not always the case, but generally it is!!!)</p>

15

<p>I'll disagree a bit with jags here. I know several lawyers who are very successful who went to law schools outside the top 100. However, most of those started their careers in legal aid or district attorney's offices. In SOME parts of the country, it is now impossible to get a job with one of those unless you went to a top 100 law school....or have a connection. It's a LOT harder to get those jobs than it was a generation ago. </p>

<p>In NYC, at least, the difference in the job prospects facing folks at St. John's --which is actually tied for #80--and those at New York Law School, which is not in the top 100, is significant. </p>

<p>Now, if you want to practice law in Montana, I'm sure it's okay to attend UMontana Law, even though it isn't in the top 100. So, I'll admit that being in NYC probably skews my perceptions. But, unless you do have connections or just need the degree to help advance up the ladder in your corporate job, e.g., in a title company, I'd advise against going to a tier three or four law school in a market with several law schools that are more highly ranked. </p>

<p>The OP's #s aren't good enough to give her a shot at St. John's and while I know several good attorneys who went to NY Law, they admit it's tough to get a job out of law school that will cover the loans. I rarely agree with Aries, but this time I do. Before going to a tier 3 or 4 law school check out where their grads get jobs and how much they pay. Can you pay back loans on that salary?</p>

<p>Remember, you cannot declare bankruptcy if you can't. If you don't pay, your wages will be garnished. The interest will continue to accumulate if the amount garnished isn't enough to make the monthly payments you should be making. The amount of interest can be really high.</p>

16

<p>the nyc market sounds like its awful for t3 and t4 grads. i would maybe avoid new york law school or touro. </p>

<p>some t4s have rediculous attrition and job placement stats. but i do think its possible to find solid t3 or t4 programs. actually, in NY, I have heard hofstra is ok.</p>

17

<p>
[quote]
I rarely agree with Aries, but this time I do.

[/quote]

Thank you, Jonri!! :)</p>

<p>
[quote]
Now, if you want to practice law in Montana, I'm sure it's okay to attend UMontana Law, even though it isn't in the top 100.

[/quote]

Actually, it's better than attending some fancy East Coast school. I have a friend who went that route and got some questions in the job market like, "Why xxx instead of UMontana? What, is it too good for you?"</p>

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<p>If you have aspirations of working at a law firm in NYC that will pay you a high enough salary to live while managing your student loans, take a look at some of the websites of these law firms -- try <a href="http://www.wachtell.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.wachtell.com&lt;/a> (Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen & Katz), <a href="http://www.sullcrom.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.sullcrom.com&lt;/a> (Sullivan & Cromwell), <a href="http://www.cravath.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.cravath.com&lt;/a> (Cravath, Swaine & Moore), <a href="http://www.stblaw.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.stblaw.com&lt;/a> (Simpson Thacher & Bartlett) and <a href="http://www.dpw.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.dpw.com&lt;/a> (Davis Polk & Wardwell) for starters. Look at where the attorneys who work there went to law school. Look at the recruiting sections of their websites to see at what schools these law firms recruit. Make a note of the law schools that have sent multiple attorneys to these firms. If a law school is not well represented in the ranks of these law firms, that law school likely doesn't send too many of its graduates to the top law firms in NYC (you know, the ones that pay the big bucks). These are the law firms that pretty much lead the way in NYC, in terms of salaries, bonuses and, more often than not, recruiting.</p>

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<p>Also, check out nalpdirectory.com, where you can search firms by schools at which they recruit.</p>

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<p>yeah, the nyc market looks brutal. i'm probably a lower end t2 upper end t3 law school applicant. i'll avoid the NYC.</p>

<p>yes, NYC has many more law firms, at every prestige level, than every market in the country. but that dosn't compensate for the fact that it draws from applicants in the top 25, plus regional schools. young professionals are dying to live in NYC.</p>