What your example shows is, despite all of the problems China and Viet Nam have, they still rank ahead of us.
That just makes our ranking worse, doesn’t it?
@fire123 No, because in many countries, not all the students take the PISA tests. Kids who are not on the “academic track” are either not attending school at that age, are attending vocational schools that don’t take the tests, or in the case of Shanghai are not allowed to attend good schools if they are from rural backgrounds. If we tested only the students who were headed to 4 year colleges, then we would rank pretty well. At the schools in the US randomly selected take the PISA tests, all the students take the tests including most special needs students, English language learners, etc. The emphasis in the US is on raising graduation rates, and those rates have gone up. So, the effect is actually that we are testing more and more of the students who won’t do especially well on these tests.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD
China’s per capita GDP is less than 7K, Vietnam’s is less than 2K, U.S. is over 53K. Yep, they are very poor and not all taking the PISA, but . . . Why aren’t we doing better?
That is simply NOT true for the entire PISA test as its fundamental basis is that the pools are comparable. The argument about European kids attending technical or vocational schools has been debunked for the NEA canard it is.
As far as comparing students heading for 4 years colleges, we should be worried about what we ask for. We actually do much worse than many countries. We also do not perform well in the educational achievement of the 18 to 30 years old – and especially if we made sure the pools were comprehensive.
The reality is that the only educational “cycle” where we perform better than most countries is in the elementary school. The reason? Most kids start school with a lot of parental help and support as we like our kids to be smart in preparation of that Lake Wobegon. We remain competitive at the start of the middle school, but in correlation with the attrition of parents who can complement the deficient education, we lose terrain. In high school, and despite a despicable dropout rate, our wheels are coming off. Our 15 years old are behind and even more so by the time they graduate – if they do!
Nothing has changed since the unveiling of a Nations at Risk, except a hardening of the litany of excuses and denials. Simply stated, our education model is one of underachievement and mediocrity. Very similar to the education of the people we entrusted to make changes. Other nations have embarked on a different path … with the results that we can expect the statistics to worsen for decades.
“Asian countries stand out is the culture of education. South Korea certainly was more illiterate 20-30 years ago and has improved significantly since. They truly believe education is they key to move up in the world, both personally and as a country. Culture plays a big role in educational outcomes.”
My friend teaches in South Korea. After what she has told me, I am so glad my son (adopted from Korea) got to go to school here. Imo, it practically borders on abuse what they put their kids through.
Has anyone compared PISA results with something like GNP to see what influence it has on a national level?
Basically, a literate, intelligent, sober, hard-working couple in a stable family can be poor in a poor country through no fault of their own. They will still make sure their kids get educated.
If you are poor in a rich country, such as the US, it is fairly likely to be due to your own deficiencies which translate into worse support for your kids’ needs.
We do pretty well on PISA… http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/16653406/#Comment_16653406
^^ I first came across that line of reasoning from Tino Sanandaji when he was studying at the U of Chicago. Interesting perspective.
The reason they test 15 year olds is to catch them before they leave junior high. Weaker students do get screened out in many jurisdictions at senior high level. Andreas Schleicher answered many of your other questions here:
http://oecdeducationtoday.blogspot.fr/2013/12/are-chinese-cheating-in-pisa-or-are-we.html
Our results are on a downward trend as well. When the PISA results were out in 2013, John Manly, a former federal Cabinet member was calling the findings “a national emergency”. Americans may find this funny, but many here are concerned with what they are seeing.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/education/canadas-fall-in-math-education-ranking-sets-off-red-flags/article15730663/
^^^ Keep in mind that Andreas Scheicher isn’t an un-biased observer, as she is the “Deputy Director for Education and Skills and Special Advisor on Education Policy to the OECD’s Secretary General”.
Personally, I don’t have much faith in any statements/stats provided by the Chinese government. I do believe they have an excellent educational system in Shanghai, but I also believe other countries systems are at least it’s equal.
“No, because in many countries, not all the students take the PISA tests”
Yes, this.
I think U.S. culture loves success but does not necessarily value effort. Obviously, that varies on the individual level, but as a nation, I think that’s where we are.
India doesn’t allow it’s Bangladesh illegall immigrant children attend school, let alone take a test.
Someone above asked about GNP comparisons. I as well, want to say “and so…?” when reading about comparative test scores. If Korea ranks higher than us, what does that mean in practical terms? I cannot see smart people from around the world flocking to live in Korea as a result. They are still flocking here.
More people would flock to Korea if the language was as easy and accessible as English.
I am afraid that this ranking will only lead to more emphasis on testing rather than teaching as a solution.
If all of the countries taking PISA were all the same, the relative ranking of the U.S. would be much more important. Each country is different, though, with strengths and weakness of their own and different priorities. Areas of US education need improvement, for sure, but, as @ Bay said, what do the PISA results mean in a practical sense in terms of the overall quality of life in a specific country?
How can that be? The reality is that “we” have deliberately ignored all results as they do NOT show our purported advancement. The current posture of the educators is still the same: let us do what we’d like to do but do not measure the results in any meaningful way. That is the reality that leads to obscuring the problems, and accordingly eliminate the “need for solutions.”
Testing is viewed as the problem, but it is a simple measuring stick. The solutions will not come until we admit the failures of the system and stop recruiting from the bottom of the education barrel and protect the weak and lazy without rewarding the numerous teachers who still are dedicated and concerned.
The solutions exist but they are not exactly on the agenda of the unions whose interest has always been to do as little as possible for the largest extortion possible through CBA.
Do not hold your bated breath in anticipation. It will get a lot worse before we can no longer escape the sad reality of a failed system. And we will still let those leaders blame the victims.
If you are prepared to accept the analysis, here is a source quoted in this article:
In typical Ravitch fashion, who has been to flip-flop on issues as a true disciple of John Kerry, she does not know if we should indict the international tests as deficient or simply accept the poor showing of the US as a perennial issue, but retain our high self-esteem.
**Let others have the higher test scores. I prefer to bet on the creative, can-do spirit of the American people, on its character, persistence, ambition, hard work, and big dreams, none of which are ever measured or can be measured by standardized tests like PISA. **
Yes, we are pretty bad in educating our people, but by having been mediocre for a long time we beat the world with experience. We will be able to get away with such reasoning as long as our great resources --and imported brains-- allow many great minds to flourish and new leaders to emerge in technology. We will always have the highest numbers of gazillionaires in the world, but what kind of creativity do the army of graduates who will apply to Walmart, spend their time on Facebook, and remain insular really have? Does creativity really trumps the art of writing, reading, and … thinking?
Paradoxically, although the U.S has issues with K-12 education, most top universities reside in the U.S. Many students want to be educated here, post secondary. One of those unique advantages of this country.
The US has a number of great K-12 schools as well. One needs to look at the nature and attributes of the top university to understand the different parallels between private and public institutions. No real secret!
Our top universities look great on a worldwide basis because the ROW has mostly … public universities.