Mac or PC for engineering?

Student Lounge College Life
21

<p>The Mac vs. PC question comes up once a month. As a rule, in Liberal Arts, it doesn’t matter. If you’re majoring in the sciences, engineering, computer science, business, economics or finance, you should go to your department’s website and see if there is a preference. You can learn a lot. For instance, at the University of Virginia, the Engineering Department noted (in 2007), that 94% of the incoming class has Windows computers vs. 6% Macs. Clearly, 6% of UVA’s engineering class got by with their Macs, but the Help desk will not support dual boot/virtualization modes.</p>

<p>One more thing... Even if you use Bootcamp to run Windows on your Mac, the University of Virginia correctly points out the following: “Apple does not support Windows running on their hardware; Microsoft doesn't support Windows running on Apple hardware…” </p>

<p>UVA</a> School of Engineering and Applied Science, 1st Yr PC Recommendations :</p>

<p>For those interested in Apple Mac computers, please keep in mind that even though BootCamp is included by Apple in the current Leopard operating system, Apple does not support Windows running on their hardware, Microsoft doesn't support Windows running on Apple hardware, and the U.Va.'s ITC Help Desk does not support dual boot or virtualization modes. Basically you're on your own to try and make it work, and this may not appeal to many students. Last year, 94% of our incoming class had a PC and 6% had a Mac. A copy of Microsoft Vista and the Office suite will be available under the Microsoft Campus Agreement to run on Macs. MacBook and MacBook Air models don't really have enough horsepower (particularly graphics) for Vista. MacBook Pro models can run Vista using BootCamp for 2 GB RAM systems. Trying to run Windows Vista software in a virtualized mode with less than 4 GB of system RAM may not yield a satisfactory user experience, and Windows XP sales are slated to be terminated this June.</p>

<p>CEE</a> Computer Resources :</p>

<p>Q. I will be a new student at Stanford in the Fall. What computer should I get?
A. Students in Structural Engineering and Geomechanics (SEG), and Construction Engineering and Management (CEM) mostly have Windows computers to be consistent with those computers used for teaching. Students in Environmental & Water Studies mostly favor Macintosh computers.
The</a> Center for Engineering Computing - PC & Mac Configuration: Computer Recommendation :</p>

<p>What brand should I buy?
We can't recommend specific brands. If you are interested in advice on purchasing a new system, we would recommend that you investigate at PC Magazine's website at PC</a> Magazine - Computer, Software, Hardware and Electronics Reviews, Downloads, News and Opinion , where you can find many helpful comparison tables on various machines. In general, the typical options that most students consider are "PC or Apple" (Microsoft or Apple). Due to the nature of engineering computing, most programs are written to interface with Microsoft operating systems. For this reason, it may be to your advantage to have the capability to run a Windows operating system.
PC: Regarding PCs, the CEC currently runs Microsoft XP on all of its computers. It is likely, however, that when purchasing a new PC, Windows Vista will be the only option for an operating system. This discrepancy will not be a problem, as Vista will work fine on our network.</p>

<p>Apple: If considering a Apple, it is recommended that the system run newest versions of the Apple operating system (Leopard). Although Apple computers are also powerful computers for many applications, there are a considerable number of programs used in the engineering school that are not capable of running on a Apple. We say this not to discourage you from purchasing an Apple, but to make you aware that - as of right now - an Apple will have a few disadvantages compared to a PC.</p>

<p>Penn</a> Engineering > CETS > Computer Information For New Engineering Students :</p>

<p>Q: I’m thinking about buying a computer. What do you suggest?
A: Penn’s Computer Connection, the campus computer store, offers computers at special educational prices, preloaded with software you’ll need to connect to the network at Penn. They will be sending you information for web-based ordering in June and a brochure in July, giving you plenty of options that work well with other Penn systems. In addition to the brochure, more models are available online at the web site Campus</a> Express - Login.
As an Engineering student, you’ll use much more Windows software than Macintosh software. To save space in your room and to connect to the SEAS wireless network, consider buying a laptop rather than a desktop. A CD burner or USB flash drive is useful for backing up your homework and projects. For your security, we advise you to purchase a lockdown kit.</p>

<p>University</a> of Maryland | Electrical and Computer Engineering Department</p>

<p>Recommendations regarding Operating Systems:
Some of the Engineering software will not run on a Mac operating system, so students may find the greatest utility using Windows. However, a Mac should enable students to easily access the Glue system, which has most of the software that is used for ECE classes.
It really comes down to preference. Windows may be a better fit for the ECE environment, but a Mac will work as well.</p>

<p>UCCS</a> : Engineering</p>

<p>Engineering and the new Intel Based Macs
Preliminary tests indicate that the new “Intel” Mac computer will meet the college requirements. However, if you desire to use a Mac, we suggest that you delay the purchase until after you arrive in the fall. Check at that time with the department of your major to verify that the new Mac is fully compatible.</p>

22

<p>Are you sure that Microsoft doesn't support Windows on a Mac? If you buy a retail copy of Windows (with a support contract), I'm pretty sure they will support it on any x86 machine...</p>

23

<p>It really does depend on your school. I'm a physics major and the department recommends macs.</p>

24

<p>Some computer science departments favor Unix over Windows - to the point where the professor will fail your assignments if it looks like it was done on Windows. Our son had a class like this in the Spring so I got him a MacBook Pro - which had the required development software on one of the CDs.</p>

25

<p>Re: Mac support issues running Windows:</p>

<p>As of Feb. 4, 2008 Microsoft’s support for Bootcamp was still in the rumor stage. See: Neowin.net</a> - Rumor: Microsoft to Support Windows on Bootcamp</p>

<p>On the other side of the fence, people with Macs who had problems with installing XP found that the Genius Bar and Microsoft’s support were of no help (May 2008). See: Apple</a> - Support - Discussions - Bootcamp Windows XP random freeze ...</p>

26

<p>We have three MacBook Pros (2 15s and 1 17) and they're all loaded with Bootcamp and XP and we haven't seen this problem. Two are Meroms and one is a Penryn. Two were purchased this year, one last year. They've been outstanding performers in our household.</p>

<p>That said, one might go with Parallels or VMWare as this would simplify driver issues. Any Windows computer can run into driver problems. My Compaq Presario r3000z didn't have any 64-bit drivers available for Windows XP Pro x64 edition so I had to look for individual hardware drivers around the web to get it working.</p>

27

<p>This might just be personal preference, but...I'm a fairly computer-literate person, and even so, macs completely confuse me. Their user interface, how things are set up and organized, etc., just completely messes with me. Perhaps for a lifelong mac user it's second nature, and I'm a lifelong PC user, so I'm understandably biased I guess, but compared to macs, PCs just seem very intuitive and straightforward in terms of how things are organized and how the computer functions. And on top of that, I have seen errors on macs, despite the usual claims of their being far less error-prone than PCs.</p>

<p>The bottom line is this: test out the mac's operating system and how it works BEFORE you decide on getting one. Macs annoy the hell out of me and I know a lot of people feel the same way.</p>

28

<p>I've used computers since the mid 1970s going from toggle switches, hex displays, Teletype machines, terminals to what we have today. At work, we work with HP-UX, AIX, Solaris, VMS, various flavors of Windows, some of the old IBM operating systems, etc. I love Mac OSX for development as it is based on Unix where the tools are consistent between platforms.</p>

<p>Lots of people have difficulty going from one platform to another outside of the various flavors of Unix. Apple will typically provide or sell training sessions on Mac OSX at their stores. In addition, there's usually plenty of help available at the various Mac OSX forums on the web.</p>

<p>The easist thing to do is to watch an elementary school kid or middle-school kid play around with one and learn how to use it. Things are easier to learn when there's less to unlearn.</p>

29

<p>Regarding the reported BootCamp problems: there's a new BootCamp update today from Apple. It's 227 MB and loading on my MBP.</p>

30

<p>
[quote]
Some computer science departments favor Unix over Windows - to the point where the professor will fail your assignments if it looks like it was done on Windows. Our son had a class like this in the Spring so I got him a MacBook Pro - which had the required development software on one of the CDs.

[/quote]

That's why I got myself an HP and put Ubuntu on it...saving the $2K extra it would've cost to get a MBP ;)</p>

31

<p>The MacBook Pro was $1,800. I bought him one last summer and they threw in a $200 iPod. But his sister took that one. And I bought a 17 inch MacBook Pro for myself this spring with the LED backlit screen and several other bells and whistles. I've played around with Linux before on my own hardware but don't care to do system maintenance and I've been turned off by the amount of work needed to find device drivers. I work on Linux in the office but have a system management team to deal with system management issues.</p>

32

<p>I specced out an MBP, and it would've cost about $3k, where the HP I got was $900. As for hardware compatibility, pretty much everything worked out of the box: sound card, graphics card, monitor, webcam, Bluetooth, Ethernet card, wireless card. Things have come really far in the past few years with Linux, especially in terms of hardware compatibility.</p>

33

<p>"I specced out an MBP, and it would've cost about $3k, where the HP I got was $900. As for hardware compatibility, pretty much everything worked out of the box: sound card, graphics card, monitor, webcam, Bluetooth, Ethernet card, wireless card."</p>

<p>This didn't happen with my Compaq Presario. I spent a few days trying to get the WSXGA display in native mode and was unsuccessful. I also tried to get it to work with an external monitor and that proved futile. I did get to spend time practicing the use of vi so that I could get the system working in non-native mode. If you look at a place like Google where employees choose their clients and cost isn't an issue, Apple does very well. I've seen open source projects where workers were diehard Linux users several years ago move to Apple platforms. The benefit is that it's a good platform for running multiple operating systems and since many open source projects support the Mac platform, it's advantageous to get something where you can build natively without requiring a dedicated system.</p>

<p>I've given up on HP due to quality issues. My last two HP desktops have had more issues with them than I care to see in an OEM. I've seen the shift at work too. My vendor of choice for desktops is now Dell.</p>

34

<p>
[quote]
This didn't happen with my Compaq Presario. I spent a few days trying to get the WSXGA display in native mode and was unsuccessful. I also tried to get it to work with an external monitor and that proved futile. I did get to spend time practicing the use of vi so that I could get the system working in non-native mode.

[/quote]

Well, you definitely have to make sure the hardware is going to be compatible with Linux before you buy it regardless, but more and more hardware is compatible nowadays. There are definitely exceptions, though, such as Sony. They love to use proprietary, in-house, hardware that requires extensive reverse engineering. I'm surprised a Compaq had problems though, as those probably use the same hardware as the consumer HP computers that I have. How long ago did you try? You have to realize that development moves very quickly in the Linux world, and improvements appear all the time.</p>

<p>
[quote]
If you look at a place like Google where employees choose their clients and cost isn't an issue, Apple does very well.

[/quote]

However, for the average customer, cost clearly is an issue. It's one of the most important issues. Businesses are an exception, as people aren't as concerned about spending money when it's not their own money they're spending.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The benefit is that it's a good platform for running multiple operating systems

[/quote]

The only extra operating system available on a Mac is OS X, and that's because Apple refuses to allow it to be (legally) run on other hardware. Everything else has been the same between a Mac and a non-Mac computer ever since the move to x86.</p>

<p>
[quote]
it's advantageous to get something where you can build natively without requiring a dedicated system.

[/quote]

As I said, I use Linux and I don't need a dedicated system either. If you want to run Windows, that's not an obstacle either - you can use Cygwin for full Unix compatibility.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I've given up on HP due to quality issues. My last two HP desktops have had more issues with them than I care to see in an OEM. I've seen the shift at work too. My vendor of choice for desktops is now Dell.

[/quote]

HP desktops have never been a problem for me. I've got an HP desktop that's going on 8 years (now running Xubuntu), and it's still going great.</p>

35

<p>"Well, you definitely have to make sure the hardware is going to be
compatible with Linux before you buy it regardless, but more and more
hardware is compatible nowadays. There are definitely exceptions,
though, such as Sony. They love to use proprietary, in-house, hardware
that requires extensive reverse engineering. I'm surprised a Compaq
had problems though, as those probably use the same hardware as the
consumer HP computers that I have. How long ago did you try? You have
to realize that development moves very quickly in the Linux world, and
improvements appear all the time."</p>

<p>I have a friend that had three Sony Vaios and he's spent hundreds of
hours playing with Linux. He's had to reverse engineer drivers to
figure out how to get them to work. He has given up on Linux and
has spent somewhere between $20K and $30K on Apple Equipment for
development (he has multiple residences, the office and has a liking
for 30 inch monitors).</p>

<p>"However, for the average customer, cost clearly is an issue. It's one
of the most important issues. Businesses are an exception, as people
aren't as concerned about spending money when it's not their own money
they're spending."</p>

<p>Productivity is an issue for the professional. Shouldn't a student
have good tools too?</p>

<p>"The only extra operating system available on a Mac is OS X, and that's
because Apple refuses to allow it to be (legally) run on other
hardware. Everything else has been the same between a Mac and a
non-Mac computer ever since the move to x86."</p>

<p>So what are you going to do for multiplatform development?</p>

<p>"As I said, I use Linux and I don't need a dedicated system either. If
you want to run Windows, that's not an obstacle either - you can use
Cygwin for full Unix compatibility."</p>

<p>You must be joking. I do use cygwin for my 64-bit Windows work. I've
had to use a number of hacks to get it working properly. Full Unix
compatibility is not the same as the same environment. msys is quite
a bit better in that area. But I was referring to developing on Mac
OSX. Some people buy Mac Minis for porting. I find it easier to be
able to do it all on one system.</p>

<p>"HP has never been a problem for me. I've got an HP desktop that's
going on 8 years, and running Xubuntu, it's still going great."</p>

<p>I have friends that work at HP and they've been in cost-cutting and
off-shoring mode for many years. My HP Laptop is four-years old and is
a fine product. But the desktops (about two years old now) are not up
to sniff in the quality department. I've heard of problems from
coworkers and associates with HP products and those that haven't gone
with Apple are going with Dell now.</p>

36

<p>
[quote]
I have a friend that had three Sony Vaios and he's spent hundreds of
hours playing with Linux. He's had to reverse engineer drivers to
figure out how to get them to work. He has given up on Linux and
has spent somewhere between $20K and $30K on Apple Equipment for
development (he has multiple residences, the office and has a liking
for 30 inch monitors).

[/quote]

That's exactly why I said Sony was a bad company to buy hardware from if you want Linux support....</p>

<p>
[quote]
Productivity is an issue for the professional. Shouldn't a student
have good tools too?

[/quote]

And productivity isn't a problem, as long as you check to make sure a computer is compatible with Linux before purchasing it (or just buying one with Linux preinstalled). You'll have your system set up in no time and you'll be ready to go. The only problem is specific applications, many of which run great under Wine (Photoshop CS2 and Office 2003). For a student, these applications usually aren't necessary. Of course, if they are, Linux isn't an option.</p>

<p>
[quote]
So what are you going to do for multiplatform development?

[/quote]

Unless you're creating a desktop application for the Mac, it's not like there are too many differences between it and Linux. Software I've developed has run fine for the most part on Macs even though it's been developed under Linux. But I'm definitely not going to give in to Apple's ultra-proprietary software ecosystem to be able to test for that last bit of compatibility myself, especially when I don't want to have to deal with the restrictive nature of Apple's products. If you're developing a graphical application, on the other hand, you would probably be better off with multiple setups for testing your application anyway.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You must be joking. I do use cygwin for my 64-bit Windows work. I've
had to use a number of hacks to get it working properly.

[/quote]

Well 64-bit is definitely an area which requires work on Windows, so there are definitely going to be issues with it. If you require complete compatibility [url=<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andlinux%5DandLinux%5B/url"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andlinux]andLinux[/url&lt;/a&gt;] is a good program to look at.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I have friends that work at HP and they've been in cost-cutting and
off-shoring mode for many years. My HP Laptop is four-years old and is
a fine product. But the desktops (about two years old now) are not up
to sniff in the quality department. I've heard of problems from
coworkers and associates with HP products and those that haven't gone
with Apple are going with Dell now.

[/quote]

Well I don't buy desktops anymore; I build them, so I don't know the state of OEM desktops. As for laptops, I would definitely go for a Thinkpad, as their build quality is unmatched. The only reason for getting an HP myself was because there was no 17" Thinkpad until Lenovo announced one a short while ago. HP's laptops are of decent quality, though.</p>

37

<p>"That's exactly why I said Sony was a bad company to buy hardware from
if you want Linux support...."</p>

<p>Why doesn't the Linux community support Sony?</p>

<p>"And productivity isn't a problem, as long as you check to make sure a
computer is compatible with Linux before purchasing it (or just buying
one with Linux preinstalled). You'll have your system set up in no
time and you'll be ready to go. The only problem is specific
applications, many of which run great under Wine (Photoshop CS2 and
Office 2003). For a student, these applications usually aren't
necessary. Of course, if they are, Linux isn't an option."</p>

<p>One of the really nice things about Mac OSX is that they give you a
great set of development tools right on the CD. And a pretty nice set
of performance analysis tools, and a nice code profiler. I did try
setting up a particular development environment on Linux before and
spent quite a bit of time working on it before giving up. I find that
the level of support for such things to be much better in the Mac OSX
and Windows world. Though I find things harder to do in Windows
overall because of the bastardized environment that tries to bridge
MS-DOS to Unix.</p>

<p>My experience, in the professional development arena, is that
productivity is a problem.</p>

<p>"Unless you're creating a desktop application for the Mac, it's not
like there are too many differences between it and Linux. Software
I've developed has run fine for the most part on Macs even though it's
been developed under Linux. But I'm definitely not going to give in to
Apple's ultra-proprietary software ecosystem to be able to test for
that last bit of compatibility myself, especially when I don't want to
have to deal with the restrictive nature of Apple's products. If
you're developing a graphical application, on the other hand, you
would probably be better off with multiple setups for testing your
application anyway."</p>

<p>I work on a desktop application for the Mac. If you're just doing
command line stuff, then there isn't a difference. But you could just
use a VAX 11/780 running VMS to do the same thing. There are a bunch
of differences at the GUI level. And you might even want PowerPC
compatibility.</p>

<p>"Well I don't buy desktops anymore; I build them, so I don't know
the state of OEM desktops. As for laptops, I would definitely go
for a Thinkpad, as their build quality is unmatched. The only reason
for getting an HP myself was because there was no 17" Thinkpad until
Lenovo announced one a short while ago. HP's laptops are of decent
quality, though."</p>

<p>I'm pretty happy with Apple, especially with Mac OSX. My conversations
with owners of businesses and software engineers is that HP's quality
problems means that they are off the purchasing options list.</p>

38

<p>
[quote]
Why doesn't the Linux community support Sony?

[/quote]

The "Linux community" isn't a monolithic organization. It consists of whoever is interested in helping out with whatever they want to do. Clearly, there is no interest in supporting Sony's proprietary hardware, or someone would have done so already. Apparently the amount of work it would take to support it is not worth the resulting reward. I tend to agree with that, as it's much easier to just buy compatible hardware. That said, everything except the TV tuner works for me on a Sony desktop.</p>

<p>
[quote]
One of the really nice things about Mac OSX is that they give you a
great set of development tools right on the CD. And a pretty nice set
of performance analysis tools, and a nice code profiler. I did try
setting up a particular development environment on Linux before and
spent quite a bit of time working on it before giving up. I find that
the level of support for such things to be much better in the Mac OSX
and Windows world. Though I find things harder to do in Windows
overall because of the bastardized environment that tries to bridge
MS-DOS to Unix.

[/quote]

What development environment did you try setting up exactly? I know that Eclipse runs great on Linux, though I personally stick to just running vi from the command line. And I have no productivity problems using vi. As for code profiling, I've never had to do that myself, though Valgrind and gprof seem to be the popular ones on Linux.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I work on a desktop application for the Mac. If you're just doing
command line stuff, then there isn't a difference. But you could just
use a VAX 11/780 running VMS to do the same thing. There are a bunch
of differences at the GUI level. And you might even want PowerPC
compatibility.

[/quote]

Well, if you are working on a desktop application for the Mac, of course you need a Mac—there is simply no other way to test your application. Cocoa apps are Mac only, so it's not like you have a choice. Thankfully, the Linux community is much more open with their software, allowing it to be run on pretty much any system, even non-Unix ones, such as Windows. You can see that in KDE 4.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I'm pretty happy with Apple, especially with Mac OSX.

[/quote]

Well, that's clearly subjective. I have to use a Mac for several hours a day, and I find the GUI to be extremely restrictive, so I try to stick to the command line whenever possible to avoid that pain. Other people appreciate the walled garden that OS X creates around your computing experience. If you're one of those people, by all means, use OS X. I, however, disagree with the philosophy of assuming that the users of one's software won't be able to handle complexity.</p>

<p>
[quote]
My conversations with owners of businesses and software engineers is that HP's quality problems means that they are off the purchasing options list.

[/quote]

Well, I can't say that HP is a great hardware company, but the price was difficult to pass up, not to mention the specific features I got (numpad, 17" screen) were hard to find elsewhere (including Apple). Lenovo is definitely my preferred laptop vendor.</p>

39

<p>One of my priorities on notebooks was the LED Backlit screen. I haven't shopped at HP for quite some time for obvious reasons but it seems to be an option that's pretty hard to find.</p>

<p>I don't have the Slashdot article on Open Source developers defecting to Mac OSX but it makes for an interesting read.</p>

40

<p>
[quote]
One of my priorities on notebooks was the LED Backlit screen. I haven't shopped at HP for quite some time for obvious reasons but it seems to be an option that's pretty hard to find.

[/quote]

I have no idea whether they have those, as I generally have plenty of lighting. But I think there is an option for an extra bright screen on the Pavilions.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I don't have the Slashdot article on Open Source developers defecting to Mac OSX but it makes for an interesting read.

[/quote]

Slashdot</a> | Nerds Switching from Apple to Ubuntu?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Mac guru and software developer Mark Pilgrim recently switched to Ubuntu Linux after becoming fed up with proprietary Mac file-formats and the increasing use of DRM technologies in the MacOS

[/quote]

My sentiments exactly.</p>