Macalester v. Wellesley -- a parents wants to know . . .

Colleges and Universities A-Z Macalester College
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<p>[I also posted this in the Wellesley thread. I hope that's ok. I am new to CC.]</p>

<p>Macalester v. Wellesley.</p>

<p>Their differences are obvious: one is co-ed, one is single sex. One is in the midwest, one is in the northeast.</p>

<p>But they are similar too: Both have winters that last way too long, and both have students who like to learn, professors who love to teach, and an atmosphere, we have been told, that nurtures and encourages students to be curious, accomplished, probing, bold, responsible, and worldly. Yay!</p>

<p>But can anyone help me understand the essential differences -- the mood, feeling, character, or any other vague (but essential) elements that are truly what distinguishes these excellent colleges from another, since it's clear that either place would do a wonderful job educating my child.</p>

<p>thank you</p>

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<p>My credentials: My D visited Wellesley (with me), strongly considered but ultimately decided not to apply. She did apply to and was accepted at Mac, attended a prospective student overnight, but, after much deliberation, chose to attend another liberal arts college. We are in the St. Paul area and are very familiar with Mac and its environs which, because of her wish for new horizons, partially motivated her decision to go elsewhere to school.</p>

<p>My additional thoughts–
Campuses: Wellesley’s big and beautiful campus is aesthetically stunning and visually restful. Mac’s campus is much more compact and, while pleasing, is not full of the picturesque vistas that Wellesly affords. However Mac’s size allows its students quick and easy walks (save for when icey) from dorm to class to cafeteria–five minutes gets you most anywhere on campus–and Wellesley students are required to do much more walking. In my visit it didn’t seem to be a short distance to anywhere.</p>

<p>Too, Wellesley’s size and suburban location makes the campus seem more separated, even isolated, from the world, a feeling less likely to be experienced at Mac, situated in St. Paul proper, where neighboring private residences, commercial activity (restaurants and other service businesses), and two relatively busy city streets make daily contact with non-campus activity unavoidable. It is not appropriate to call it an “urban” environment, but “busy residential” is apt, and if a student wants to get out of the campus bubble and into the wider world from time to time it is much easier to do so at Mac.</p>

<p>Atmosphere: Mac is a politically active and world-aware campus. In my experience the students are usually not counter-cultural or radical but they do share a heightened social consciousness. I am sure Wellesley has its share, too, but I think the overall political tone is a shade or two less focused than at Mac.</p>

<p>Locations: I tend to think the cultural opportunities each metro area affords are probably not much of a factor for college students, who seldom have the time or money to attend many of them, but I would rate both areas above average in arts, theater, sports, and other activities, with Boston having a little edge but with Mac students having easier and faster access (via bus or bike) to the Twin cities’ offerings.</p>

<p>Climate: Real winters at both places, as you have observed, but the number of sub-zero days to be experienced in St. Paul will almost always exceed those on the coast. To be blunt, the winters are noticeably more brutal here.</p>

<p>Affiliations: Wellesley, if I remember correctly, has cross-registration privileges at Harvard and MIT, although I understand commutes to Cambridge are not quick. Mac’s participation in the Associated Colleges of the Twin Cities is easier to take advantage of but Hamline, St. Thomas, St. Catherine, and Augsburg are much less compelling destinations.</p>

<p>Resources: While both are comfortably endowed, Wellesley has over $1.5 billion, Mac is less than half of that ($680 million). It is likely this difference supports a general level of services at Wellesley that is higher than at Mac but probably not easily detected except by direct experience of both schools.</p>

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<p>More dimensions to consider.</p>

<p>Student Body: As you can see by these links</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.macalester.edu/ir/institutionaldata/Geographic_Location_of_Students.pdf”>http://www.macalester.edu/ir/institutionaldata/Geographic_Location_of_Students.pdf&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://www.wellesley.edu/admission/knowus/demographics”>http://www.wellesley.edu/admission/knowus/demographics&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>both schools are geo-diverse and have a national draw. Mac has more Midwestern students and Wellesley more New England and mid-Atlantic students, but neither group represents a majority of students. It should also be noted that, while Mac has a reputation of having many international students, Wellesley equals it in this respect (about 12% at both schools).</p>

<p>Dorms: I think most people would consider Mac dorms to be utilitarian and drab. I was never in a Wellesley dorm but the external architecture and variety alone might make them more appealing. You should also note that 97% of Wellesley students live on campus, whereas only 64% of Mac students do (although 100% of freshman are in dorms). In short Mac is set up so that many students (presumably mostly juniors and seniors) are expected to find apartments off campus. Of course this is either a problem or a feature depending on preference.</p>

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<p>Thank you @Descartesz for such thoughtful and thorough – and well-informed – information. I so appreciate your input! Very helpful. / LMA</p>

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<p>Please let us know which way your daughter goes.</p>

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<p>Although we did not tour Wellesley, we did tour several New England LACs with both our son and our daughter. Both kids chose Midwestern LACs (one chose Macalester). The difference in atmosphere of the New England schools and the Midwestern schools for us was pronounced. All the New England LACs had a large contingent of prep school graduates. (During the information sessions at more than one college, we heard students asking one another where they had prepped.) Not sure if that made for the difference, but the Midwestern LACs seemed friendlier and less pretentious. The students who choose Macalester often have to explain their choice to friends and family (at least where we’re from), so those who want a name school that will impress probably choose other schools. The only thing people know about Minnesota is that it’s cold. Saint Paul does get cold, but Macalester is a wonderful school. Of course this is a broad brush comparison, and Wellesley could be completely different from what we experienced at the other LACs. </p>

<p>Maclaester has been a wonderfully stimulating and nurturing community for our daughter. All freshman and sophomores live on campus. Most Juniors study abroad for one semester - some live off campus and some on for the semester that they are in Saint Paul. Most Seniors find house and apartment shares in the safe adjacent residential neighborhood to campus. For most, the walk back to their apartments is a few blocks at most.</p>

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<p>The posters above have hit on a lot of the important differences. There is a difference between the two academically. I think at Wellesley there are more “type A”, hard driving students than at Mac. It is also more academically rigorous. Both are fine schools. Wellesley is considered more prestigious, but Mac is also a great school. I would suggest having your student go to accepted student days at both. After 24 hours on each campus it will be easier for her to choose. A shorter day visit, which you may have already done, isn’t as revealing as a longer overnight stay.</p>

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<p>@intparent, how are you determining that Wellesley is more “academically rigorous” than Mac? Are you just speculating based on the reputations of the two schools, or do you have some firsthand knowledge? Also, is that your opinion across the board or might it depend on specific majors? Thanks.</p>

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<p>As a starting point, we have visited both, one of my kids applied to and was accepted to Mac with good merit money. Our high school sends kids to both schools. Wellesley is a bit more selective, and test score ranges are slightly better in all categories. They have long had a reputation as the most rigorous of the seven sisters.</p>

<p>Wellesley - 30% acceptance rate:
CR: 650-740
M: 640-740
Wr: 650 - 750</p>

<p>Mac - 37% acceptance rate
CR: 630 - 740
M: 640 - 730
Wr: 630 - 720</p>

<p>A quote from Fiske Guide to Colleges:

</p>

<p>Also, Fiske shows the overlap schools with Wellesley as Yale, Harvard, Brown, Columbia, Cornell and Princeton. That is pretty good company.</p>

<p>US News ranks Wellesley in a tie for #7 of liberal arts colleges, Mac is at #24. I am certainly not a believer in US News as the be-all and end-all, but this is a significant difference. Now… I happen to really, really like both schools. We used to live in the Mac neighborhood, and I often go to events on campus there even though I live in the suburbs now. But purely on academic standing, I think Wellesley has the edge.</p>

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<p>Thanks, but all these stats you’re citing seem to be more about how selective admissions are at the respective schools than what academics are like once a student arrives on campus. I get that Wellesley attracts the most competitive students.</p>

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<p>I believe a more competitive student pool is typically indicative of a more rigorous academic environment. There are very few schools where that isn’t true. Maybe Reed would be an example. But for the most part I think Wellesley would be considered by employers and grad schools to be the stronger academic school. The difference isn’t large, but it is there.</p>

<p>Another considerations is endowment. Wellesley has an endowment that is more than twice as large as Mac’s – $1.5 billion for Wellesley, around $690,000 for Mac. That gives them a deeper pool of financial resources to draw on beyond tuition income. They also have a more powerful alumni base for fund raising campaigns as well. Money isn’t everything… but I do think Wellesley is considered a tier above Mac in the pecking order of schools, and this is another reason for it.</p>

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<p>Again, I get all of that. But that doesn’t necessarily mean the workload or grading at Mac is any less rigorous than at Wellesley. That’s what I’m trying to get a sense of. I thought maybe you had a child at each or attended one of these schools yourself. I was just looking for some firsthand knowledge about academic rigor for an actual student, not some debate about institutional reputation or clout. I get the prestige difference, believe me! Thanks.</p>

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<p>The above posters have done a unusually remarkable good job in presenting some of the differences and relevant available data, my compliments</p>

<p>These two schools were two of the three finalists of D1s college acceptances a number of years ago. I went with her the first time she visited Wellesley- she went twice. But sadly did not go with her to Macalester- her mom went on that trip, and they saw the Simon & Garfunkel concert in Minneapolis! But I got the reports, FWIW. (the concert was great).</p>

<p>So not to repeat what everyone’s said, completely, but my most distinct impressions were:

  • The Welllesley campus is classic and beautiful, But Wellelesley, MA is a typical boring suburb like where we live now, and a bus is involved to get somewhere worthwhile. Whereas Macalester has a smaller campus, and city access is more ready. In fact it is mandatory, IMO because it does not provide on-campus housing the whole time.
    Nevertheless D1 felt that the Wellesley campus emptied on the weekend she was there, which she did not like. She did not like the M/F ratio (or lack thereof) either. Or the connotations evoked by the informal name given to the bus that takes Wellesley students to MIT parties…</p>

<p>She felt like the Wellesley campus was politically active/involved, actually, more than we thought. Though Macalester has more of a reputation in that regard.</p>

<p>Yes they both have winters, but let’s face it Minnesota is in a different league in that regard. Although people have commented on the large # of sunny days.</p>

<p>The student distribution charts were posted above. Macalester obviously has a much higher proportion from the midwest, which is no surprise. What I recall being surprised about though was the particularly large proportion of Asian students at Wellesley. FWIW. </p>

<p>The students we talked to at Wellelsey felt they were working very hard and were stressed academically.
(which was the same at most of the similar schools we visited, BTW). On the other hand. D1 sat in on a math class there and was not impressed at the level or the students. Not sure of what that connotes, just one class.
She did not report back any particular impression about Macalester academics, one way or the other.</p>

<p>So sorry if this repeats and does not help much, but it’s all I’ve got.</p>

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<p>The most recent admitted class for which there are data actually had a greater difference in selectivity than intparent’s statistics indicate:</p>

<p>Wellesley - 29% acceptance rate:
CR: 660-760
M: 650-750
Wr: 670 - 760</p>

<p>Mac - 34% acceptance rate
CR: 620 - 740
M: 610 - 710
Wr: 630 - 720</p>

<p><a href=“College Navigator - Compare Institutions”>College Navigator - Compare Institutions;

<p>I do think this, too, is indicative of a school’s culture and, thus, a factor to be considered in making a choice. However, I also agree with LTL that it is an unwarranted leap of inference to go from “more selective” to “more rigorous”. Only someone who has experienced both environments could make that judgment with confidence.</p>

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<p>Rigor is different from selectivity. At some schools, partying on Thursday night is the norm since few students schedule classes on Friday. At others, students are serious about their academics, they value being surrounded by other students who want to challenge themselves academically, and the don’t have time to party during the week, Both of these schools fall in to the latter group , but comparing schools on academic rigor, especially when they both take academics seriously seems unwise because so many variables affect any one student’s academic experience at a school. On selectivity the two schools match up very well. Mac has been academically challenging for my daughter, whose SAT scores and overall high school record is above both the Mac and Wellesley averages. At schools like these two, the rigor and academic challenge come from the professors, classmates and the students themselves. Even looking at individual departments only sheds a little light, since at Macalester students must take classes across the academic spectrum. All the Mac students that I’ve had the pleasure to meet have been interesting people and serious students. Students work hard at Macalester, and intellectual discussions outside of class are the norm. Wellesley women are impressive. Many of them may have wanted to go to an Ivy League school. Does that mean Wellesley is more challenging than Macalester, or does it mean those women would have challenged themselves wherever they went? </p>

<p>To equate a school’s academic rigor with a few points on the SAT or a slight difference in selectivity may be tempting, but it is too narrow a yardstick to be useful or accurate. </p>

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<p>DD got a great education at Mac. It was rigorous in all ways with students who are intellectually oriented and interested in improving the world. </p>

<p>One plus for her was being able to hop on a bus to go to an internship. Mac is in a nice neighborhood of St. Paul and it’s easy to get anywhere in the Twin Cities. </p>

<p>I agree that the differences in test scores and admissions stats are minor. A more useful basis of decision is the setting of the schools and their institutional cultures.</p>