Make Sure Your Child's Application List Includes a "Safety" College

Parents Forum
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<p>I hesitate to say this....but kids will find like minded kids at almost any school. The reality is that at community colleges, there are some mighty smart kids. Once these kids get to college, they don't exactly share their SAT scores....they largely become irrelevant. Once in college, the students find a peer group based on interests. </p>

<p>I'm sorry, but I do not believe that just because your child's SAT scores are 400 points more on average means that your child will not find other brilliant students at the school...especially since some of these schools have honors programs or special programs that attract top students.</p>

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<p>
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I'm sorry, but I do not believe that just because your child's SAT scores are 400 points more on average means that your child will not find other brilliant students at the school...especially since some of these schools have honors programs or special programs that attract top students.

[/quote]
I believe Harvard at some point said that anyone with a 650 in each section was probably fully capable of doing the work. I think we give way too much credence to the SAT as a sorting mechanism. Further, even if the average SAT is lower than your child's SAT score, there is likely to be a range. A bigger school may have a pretty good cohort of similar scorers.</p>

<p>Rolling admissions and/or EA are also a way to finesse the whole safety school question.</p>

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<p>*But what about the kids for whom there are no schools where the average student has higher stats than their own? *</p>

<p>Then it wouldn't be a reach then, there isn't any law that says you have to have three reaches, three good fits and three back ups.
a reach could also be classified as a school that lets in less than 50% of qualified applicants</p>

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<p>thumper wrote"
"I'm sorry, but I do not believe that just because your child's SAT scores are 400 points more on average means that your child will not find other brilliant students at the school...especially since some of these schools have honors programs or special programs that attract top students."</p>

<p>That, and the fact that there are too many top students for the top schools and they end up going to all sorts of places.</p>

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<p>Why can't a student, and their parent, look at what the kid wants to study in college and do with their life in the future. I.e. I'd like to be an engineer. I'd like to be a doctor. I'd like to be a vet. I'd like to be an artist. etc...</p>

<p>Then, you go out and list the TOP 10 schools in the country that are ranked for doing what it is that you want to do. Then you take those top 10 schools and decide which ones TURN YOU ON. Take that list down to around 5 or 6. Then, you apply to those schools. You don't look at them as Reach, Match, and Safety. That's silly. </p>

<p>Now, let's be totally honest. If your desire to be any particular profession in the world requires a college education, and you are graduating high school with a sub 3.2gpa, then you really need to re-access your plan. You can still achieve these goals, but it may require a different educational plan. You probably aren't going to jump right into going to Stanford, MIT, Caltec, Jersey Tech, or Princeton.</p>

<p>But, if you and the student would look at what you want, and which schools are the BEST at what you want, then you will be surprised. A great example is Archeology, Veterinarian, astronomy, and many others. If you look at the USNWR, you will see that many of the highest ranked schools for a particular field, are NOT your Harvard, Yales, Princeton, and other "Reach" schools. You'll find that many times these "Reach" schools are very LOW on the list. In other words, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc... sometimes are not that great of a school to be going to. Sometimes, that school you think is a reach, shouldn't even be on your list. Not if you want a quality education.</p>

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<p>Good post christcorp</p>

<p>For example- ( this hasn't been brought up for a couple weeks) ;)</p>

<p>The phd productivity rates in the Humanities- St Johns is #1.
In History, Grace University is #2.
Foreign Lang, Kalamazoo is #3.
( love these names)
In Political Science, Tougaloo is #7 ( After St. John's)
REED</a> COLLEGE PHD PRODUCTIVITY
and so on.</p>

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<p>Excellent original post, excellent thread. I don't see why the U of Chicago rejection should surprise that student- for the elite schools those are not top stats. Rolling admissions do not equal safeties- the point in applying to them early is that you know if you are accepted soon after applying, ie you know if they are a safety or not so you can revise your search if necessary. Safety is not a school anyone can get into, it is the schools your child can- the top students will have many, some of which should be below their radar. One student's reach may be another's safety. The elite schools are not safeties for any student- even with perfect test scores and excellent grades, EC's et al. You can't get in if you don't apply and if you apply you don't always get in. Some students will never know if they could have gotten into some schools because they didn't want to apply there, flagship U's have many of these excellent students. Even if a top student can get into a school where the majority of students are far below them in stats they should avoid such schools as their academic peer group will not be there. A few students standard deviations from the mean will end up at these schools, but they will not find the intellectual environment they deserve. There is a reason public schools have honors programs- to serve a two tiered population.</p>

<p>Warning to all whose S/D have perfect/near perfect stats/EC's et al- there is NO guarantee you S/D will get accepted at a top school. Applying to all of the top schools will not guarantee it. There are too many students with stats as good as your child's for the available places.</p>

<p>BTW, my son with steller stats only applied to 3 schools, we are lucky we have a top flagship school (he is strong willed and... I'm glad the process is ancient history). Son happy at his school- that's what counts after it is all done.</p>

<p>There is no reason even a top student needs to consider the top schools in the desired field unless they also meet other criteria, a student may choose to avoid places for nonacademic reasons. However I agree that they should look at the strengths of the top schools in their areas of interest (not just major as students often change that). Avoid being obsessed with rankings, they are a guide, not a bible.</p>

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<p>wixz75; so true. I read not too long ago, that almost 15% of those turned down to Harvard were the valedictorian of their high school. That almost 1/3 had 4.0 averages. My only suggestions for those getting ready to look into applying to colleges is;</p>

<ol>
<li>Know what you sort of want to major in, or at least the area. E.g. Engineering, political, arch, legal, science, etc...</li>
<li>Find the top 10 best schools offering those programs. (Don't assume that the best school is Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc.... many times they AREN'T)</li>
<li>Apply to 6 or so of the schools on your list that you think you will really like.</li>
<li>Don't consider ANY OF THEM as a reach, match, or safety. Get that mentality out of your head. Every school has the potential to offer you a great education both academically and socially.</li>
<li>If you aren't sure of what you want to study or it's a very generic degree you are looking for, then consider a much less expensive school like a "State U" or such where you can save a lot of money and use that towards graduate school. </li>
<li>Don't let anyone try and tell you that you WILL have a better educational experience at a particular school compared to another school. I.e. Harvard is a better educational experience compared to Michigan State. They have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. No 2 people are the same, and therefor no college is going to have the exact same impact on them. The only way you could even come close to saying that one would be a better educational experience, would be if you attended BOTH colleges. Even then, it wouldn't be that accurate because after finishing 4 years at one school, you are at a different maturity level than when you began.</li>
<li>There is no such thing as a "Best School". There are some that have a better concentration and reputation for certain COURSE OF STUDIES. But as an overall school, there is no BEST school. It doesn't exist. I.e. If you were really into Marine Biology, do you REALLY think Princeton or Harvard would be the BEST college to attend?</li>
<li>Finally; realize that college SHOULD NOT BE YOUR GOAL. College is just a tool to help you reach your goals. If you put this into perspective, then you will get a great education and be able to work towards you goals. Just because your parents went to a particular school or want you to go to a certain school, doesn't mean anything.</li>
</ol>

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<p>If you were really into Marine Biology, do you REALLY think Princeton or Harvard would be the BEST college to attend?</p>

<p>As far as that goes- my daughter is interested in Marine bio- but if she was interested in an Ivy and wanted to attend- I wouldn't stop her even if they didn't have a marine bio major.
Marine bio is a field that is interconnected with other scientific fields and you would actually go farther if your undergrad was in Biology or Chemistry or perhaps even physics, than to specialize that early.
She wants to attend a school that has classes in oceanography and marine bio, but she knows enough not to specialize in undergrad.
( I also would say the same to those interested in engineering, education, business etc)</p>

<p>espcially agree with point #8</p>

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<p>I think college is a good short-term goal though...especially if you don't know what you want to do with your life, but you know that trade/vocational school isn't going to do it for you. </p>

<p>I love this thread. :) I fell in love with one of my "State U"s, and that's where I'll be in the fall...especially since I'm going to be a Psychology major, so I'll need grad school...I didn't see the point in going somewhere that would put my parents in huge debt for undergrad.</p>

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<p>Grace - congrats on getting to a school you love! You will really appreciate coming out without a lot of debt so you can enjoy life! I just took my junior daughter to three in-state universities that are in the safety range and was so happy she could see herself going to any one of them!</p>

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<p>Thank you! :) I visited over Spring Break and just fell even more in love. </p>

<p>Good luck to your daughter in her college search! Feel free to PM me and I'll give you my e-mail if she has any questions. It's a stressful process...but it sounds like you have things very well in hand. :)</p>

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<p>Thankfully, my d can see herself at any of the three state schools we've visited. Two are definitely safeties; one would have been a safety several years ago, but eventhough it'd be a perfect "match" for her, there's no guarantee that it doesn't fit into the reach pile. We've seen too many students with similar stats to hers (4.0 uw gpa, 35 ACT, 10 AP's (5's so far)) rejected because we have such a huge number of kids wanting to stay in state because of Bright Futures. We're looking at financial as well as educational match, so she'll apply to a couple of reach schools and one other match ... and that's it. When all is said and done we'll examine acceptance with financial incentive and find the right one. Of course, I know she has her preferences, but thank goodness she's adaptable and always has been.</p>

<p>zebes</p>

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<p>"Why can't a student, and their parent, look at what the kid wants to study in college and do with their life in the future. I.e. I'd like to be an engineer. I'd like to be a doctor. I'd like to be a vet. I'd like to be an artist. etc...</p>

<p>Then, you go out and list the TOP 10 schools in the country that are ranked for doing what it is that you want to do. Then you take those top 10 schools and decide which ones TURN YOU ON. Take that list down to around 5 or 6. Then, you apply to those schools. You don't look at them as Reach, Match, and Safety. That's silly."</p>

<p>Wouldn't work with most students. Most have no idea what they want to eventually do. The relatively small proportion of h.s. students who think they know what they want to do often are basing their projections on fantasies like the careers of characters in TV sitcoms and dramas.</p>

<p>Most students, too, change their college majors at least twice.</p>

<p>Think about it: How many people do you know who ended up doing what they thought they'd do when they were in high school?</p>

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<p>I think Christcorp makes some very interesting points.</p>

<p>The entire approach to higher education as played out on this board is unique to this country. The vast array of choices, the many different paths, the holistic approach to admissions -- not found anywhere else. In many ways I think it is an embarassment of riches and reflective of so much we have to be grateful for in this society, while at the same time the problems with the process are indicative of some of the problems we face as a society.</p>

<p>One aspect of the U.S. system is that it in some ways manages to delay the maturation process. It extends the period of academic experimentation and delayed decision-making, as opposed to the universities in other parts of the world that require students to know exactly what they are studying from day one. </p>

<p>Not saying that's a bad thing, but in other places you just aren't given the luxury to "find yourself".</p>

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<p>Think about it: How many people do you know who ended up doing what they thought they'd do when they were in high school?
Especially now.
We went from production to information.
Thats why I advocate for kids to have a broad based college curriculum and encourage them to take a year or so off before college to get more out of it.</p>

<p>Things are changing so much which is great, but we are never going to be the "Superpower" that we were & our kids are going to live in that world.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I hesitate to say this....but kids will find like minded kids at almost any school. The reality is that at community colleges, there are some mighty smart kids.

[/quote]
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<p>I happen to be a community college graduate myself and would say from my experience that I just didn't find the sort of classroom experience my daughter is looking for in a smaller LAC. Yes, there were hard working students, no dummies to be sure, but it was largely a memorize and regurgitate experience, not much analytical thought going on. Perhaps it's not fair to judge based on SAT scores but I do happen to think the experience at a small rural school with average SATs of 1000 is quite different from one with a 1400 average. So what do you do? You look for larger public schools where yes, she will be able to find like-minded peers. All well and good, but when your goal is smaller, it's a tougher search. Any suggestions for a math/physics girl?</p>

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<p>Avoid LACs. Yes, they will tout their math/science programs and how many grads go on to higher degrees. But does your D want to be with a small minority and be surrounded by humanities majors in her dorm? There are fewer sci/tech schools, but that is a possibility. Do not count out the larger schools. Consider this, if you live in a city of any size you realize it is composed of many neighborhoods/areas of town. Big U's are similar- they are really many different places located under the main U. Most of the classes in her field are likely to be clustered in one part of the campus, there will be grad labs to work in, as well as grad students to interact with. One advantage of TA's at a major U is that they are probably as smart as the best students and an undergrad can see what life as a grad student is like. It costs a lot of money to fund science labs, small LAC's won't have the diversity. Our son checked out some elite schools and, like so many top students, ended up in the honors program in math/physics at the flagship U, where classes are small but there are plenty of course offerings both in his field and for diversity in rounding out his education. Remember to scout out programs for women in science and engineering in dorms . I'm sure your D will receive multitudes of mail if she checks off the boxes on the tests (PSAT/SAT/ACT).</p>

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<p>It's true that large universities will have larger science depts. But more classes don't mean enough spaces- when my D was looking for an organic chem class to take at UW, even though I think they had 25 or 25 sections, they were all full because it is a required course for many programs.</p>

<p>Also they tend to have weed out lower division courses, because they don't have enough slots in upper division courses. That is fine if you don't mind the pressure, but for those who do want to learn, and not have to always worry about the curve, you may want a more supportive environment.</p>

<p>Harvey Mudd, Reed,Amherst, there are actually lots of LACs ( and smaller universities) with strong science programs.
Smith has engineering & I am sure if I looked I could find a ton of others. LAC doesn't mean all humanities.
If she doesnt' mind the left coast, Reed is the only school where the nuclear reactor is staffed by virtually all undergrads.
I also think it is important to have a broad based science education- I know too many engineers who have never taken a history/arts course since high school.
( there are several science/math/physics majors posting on the Reed thread under colleges)</p>

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<p>I think applying to a group of schools early is a very good idea. It gives you an idea where you stand. My oldest son applied to Georgetown, BC, Binghamton, St Bonaventure early. He was accepted to all but Georgetown, got money only from St B. That gave him a good idea of where he was in the admissions process. He did not need to apply to anymore match or safety schools unless he wanted them or wanted to go for merit money. He could then focus on his reaches. </p>

<p>For my second son, the early rounds were an early warning that he was going to have to apply to a lot of schools, something we had been told, but it was reinforced. As a performing arts candidate, he found that the auditions were very tough, with very few admits. Again he knew all of us this, but the reality was when he had to live it. We ended up including a number of non audition schools with excellent music/theatre options plus looking for programs in less known schools. </p>

<p>Son number three was sitting happily with all of his early accepts and did not even really want to apply regular admissions. He had a very laid back admissions session. In his case, the schools that accepted him EA were much harder on the RA kids. The numbers were pretty clear. Now I truly understand why schools give EA some consideration over RA kids. My son did not want to continue with the process. He also had time to get used to the idea of going to those schools. Plenty of time to visit. Every other school he examined was compared to the EA schools. Also I noticed from his friends that schools that deferred their EA kids, were not very popular with those kids, and not many of them are considering them RA now. My friend's D was gung ho about Barnard ED, was deferred, and that really cooled her ardor for that school She is now going to Vandy instead, a school that was not high on her list initially. I know Barnard is ED, not EA, but even had it been EA, had it accepted her, there was not likely to be any other apps. Though not binding, I see a lot kids bonding to their EA choices.</p>