I agree that there are other public universities you can look into. But not very many have the characteristics of Brown.
If you are chasing high merit, that’s one thing.
If you want a college similar to Brown that can come in at your price point, that’s quite another.
It would help posters here to know which is a priority for this student.
This is a great summary and helps identify what he likes about Brown and places it isn’t as good a fit! Thank you!
My kid went to Brown and I went to Vassar so very familiar with both . You may want to have him take a look at VC.
Some obvious differences in terms of location but Vassar’s campus is very nice and it is a train ride to NYC (Poughkeepsie doesn’t offer much).
More importantly it does tick most or all of the other boxes mentioned and as a male applicant he would have a significantly enhanced likelihood of acceptance relative to Brown. They also can be “competitive” with FA.
Hope this helps and good luck.
This is a good point and one I think it will take some time for him to know his own mind on. Right now, he says “once they have some basic characteristics (majors available, certain level of flexibility) most schools are the same, so the cheapest wins.” However, he saw a difference in Brown that made him say he’d be willing to pay more for it than other schools. (And I don’t think it is prestige, because he doesn’t know much about that except for MIT, since his dad and I are alums. He didn’t even know what the Ivy League was. 
)
The truth is, he doesn’t really know what it would be like at a school that is not highly selective. He hasn’t been in public school, so he doesn’t know the wide range of commitment to learning you might find (although in college it will of course be higher than the local high school). He does get frustrated with the other kids’ lack of engagement and discussion in his online classes. He is used to a pretty high level of discussion generally. My husband and I are pretty much the only adults he interacts with (from our family & friends) that don’t have advanced degrees of some kind.
If it is really true that he can find a group of people that fit him at almost any school, then cost dominates the decision. But if he would end up unhappy at a place like KU, or SUNY Oswego, or U Maine, then I think he would be willing to spend more. The question is, how does he know?
Certainly there are students of every kind at every school…just about. But look at the curriculum style as well. Some colleges have a strong core course requirement, and others don’t. Some have rah rah sports and some don’t. Some have Greek life…and some don’t. Help your son prioritize what is important to him.
I understand the desires but cost keeps coming up - and UCONN, Pitt, Penn State, and Michigan were mentioned. And I understand why - the desired list doesn’t seem affordable.
In ABET accredited engineering, requirements are strict. No matter where you are. If engineering falls through b4 applying, Kalamazoo (no engineering) is smaller but with big merit and a solid PHD placement. It’s open curriculum as well. But if you are at ABET engineering - no matter where - there’s going to be a strictness to the curriculum but to your point, walking in with credits might still free up space. My son took lots of geography/atmospheric science classes with his space.
Unless I’m misreading their website, Brown will not accept DE credit - so you mentioned that as important. I get it…I saw no rigor in either of my kid’s DE classes.
Really what you/son need to figure is - what’s the priority ?
LAC that offers engineering ?
Flexible curriculum
Acceptance of DE credits
Cost
Location
Most but not nearly all, engineering programs will come at mid size and large publics. A. few at LACs and a nice variety at mid size and large privates - and even a few small ones.
But then you have to prioritize - which are you willing to trade ? What’s the priority ?
For the experience, the school matters. For cost, it also matters.
Sometimes you have to choose one over the other. At the same time, many large schools have created Honors programs and special research programs (look up Randall Research Scholars) to provide that top pedigree, smaller school kid, with options.
U of South Carolina is in a smaller downtown, closer to mom, has the top Honors College, has grass and a nice campus and I’d put it in the bucket of ‘could make budget’. It’d likely be close.
Also realize that most any school your student attends will likely cost more than you expect up front - kids get involved in everything from eating out to outdoor activities or travel, private medical etc.
One other thing I’ve learned - some engineering programs are heavy theory based. Others place hands on project work throughout. I don’t know but I’m guessing more schools are heavily theory based. So that may matter to your student too
The main point of all this is to really be open minded. Especially if cost is the primary driver. There’s no reason to go over budget or spend a kid’s life savings when many similar opportunities are available.
But if you choose to do so, at least you then did your homework.
It’s likely there’s not one perfect school for anyone. And many leave their dream schools for many reasons including it wasn’t the dream after all. It’s hard to know a dream from outsude - there are bad roomies, bad profs,homesickness, schools offer less variety of classes than in the catalogue etc.
At the same time, there’s likely many schools where a student can excel. More than they realize. And while students don’t like gen Ed requirements, I can assure you in each category is typically an array of choices. So you’re not necessarily stuck with something you hate - except if you’re my daughter and science.
Ok. Enough for now. Thanks
The big merit schools have a wide variety. Yes the kids studying recreation who aren’t academic but anyone successful in engineering is top shelf if they last.
And you’re easy to get into Alabamas, UTDs are loaded with national merit scholars with Alabama having the most in America. So if you’re getting top merit, you can be assured that school will have smart kids. They buy them in. Tulsa’s President posts here and said 20 or 25% of his incoming class is National Merit.
So smart kids are not just going to the prestigious and highly selective but they’re also turning them down for cost, location, or other things.
In this case, the kid’s accomplishments are what those schools are seeking and willing to pay handsomely for.
Both types - the Browns or large publics with Honors are great. Vassar, by the way, fine school but engineering is a 5 year program with two non consecutive spent at Dartmouth if I’m reading correctly.
but no matter which you choose, don’t strangle your future financially. That’s never good.
Because this student is undecided about their major, I would very strongly suggest a college with a strong core course requirement. This forces students to take courses across multiple disciplines. Some kids find a subject area that piques their interest, or a professor who would be a great mentor. And many find a course of study that was not at all what they thought they would pursue.
Once again for context, Alabama (and it’s supporters) often boast of having “the most” NM kids. Actually that is only the case amongst schools that measure such things. Super selective schools don’t count or brag about such things because statistically the vast majority of their students are NM kids and other holistic qualities are used to distinguish their selection.
More importantly in reference to your kid’s impatience towards disengaged kids, keep in mind that the 1,100 NM kids at a school like Bama is only about 3% of the undergraduate population. Even relative to the 7,000 kid honors college your student would be in a community of less “selective” students relative to his top choice school.
You seem keenly aware of the trade offs that will be required, and I encourage you to sort through the hyperbole that often enters into these discussions. Once again good luck.
If Brown is really and truly his first choice, and he’d be willing to pay the $4k/year difference between the budget and the NPC, then I would have him give it a shot. I’d let him decide whether to ED. It would improve his chances, but if he ends up as a NMF he might prefer someplace like Tulsa where it’s totally free and saving $140k for grad school vs. needing to pay $16+k out of his own pocket with no money left over. But he seems to have a good head on his shoulders and understands the value of a dollar, so he seems as though he might be mature enough to make that decision.
If engineering is now a must-have and perhaps his top desire to have included, if he wants a hands-on education, I’d take a look into U. of Louisville. Its engineering program was modeled after Cal Poly San Luis Obispo’s and I’ve heard nothing but really good comments here on CC about its engineering program. He’d also go for basically the costs of room & board, if he’s a NMF or semi-finalist. The school is not as large as some of the big state flagships (about 16k), and being a major metropolitan area, my guess is that Louisville is a blue dot (in a red state). There’s also an honors college dorm and an engineering LLC if he’s interested. The honors college classes average 15 students, according to the honors program.
One other possibility to investigate would be Bradley (IL). It has about 4300 undergrads, is ABET-accredited for industrial engineering (among other engineering specialties), its psych department might be cognitively-focused enough, offers a major in User Experience/Design, and I suspect would offer your son good merit.
If he’s thinking about other engineering fields beyond industrial (as Brown isn’t accredited for industrial engineering), then a couple other schools that he might want to investigate in case Brown doesn’t work out are:
Loyola Maryland is part of the Baltimore Collegetown consortium where he can also cross-register for classes at Johns Hopkins and other area colleges. So although it doesn’t have linguistics, surely one of the other universities does. (Loyola has about 3800 undergrads.)
U. of St. Thomas (MN) has about 6100 undergrads and @fiftyfity1 might be able to give some additional context to see whether this school might possibly be a fit
Marquette has about 7700 undergrads
Great points and I know people disagree with the statement but I would not ED to Brown.
The reason - their own words - so why bind yourself ? Minds change. And getting in ED would eliminate the chance to compare. Brown is one school where it doesn’t seem to provide an admission edge.
“Please do not assume that your admission chances are improved by applying under the Early Decision plan. The Board of Admission makes the same decisions under Early Decision that it would under the Regular Decision plan.”
He would love a place that has both, but he thinks he might like computer engineering, too. Since it is a lot more common than industrial engineering he is considering that the baseline engineering major he needs a college to have.
Also note that Brown offers a BA in Engineering in addition to ABET accredited engineering.
Wanted to note that if concern in Atmosphere at UMass without honors college is an intellectual concern with other residence areas, I’d honestly put Northeast at the top even above honors and it’s close to engineering/CS buildings. Hopefully the housing crunch will be better this year they dropped their overall acceptance rate down significantly, which was overdue.
Let’s face it. Brown is a reach for anyone. If he wants to chase merit the large mid-west universities are definitely worth a look. Unlike smaller schools that are “likelies”, at a large school there will always be a large group of very driven students, even if it’s a smaller percentage of the student body as a whole. Being in honors/engineering is going to filter out a lot of the kids that aren’t interested. For example, I think he’d find more of what he is looking for at ISU, KU, UMN, or UW than he would at UMASS Dartmouth.
What made him pick UMASS Dartmouth over UMASS Lowell?
Trinity, a great school with a lovely campus, is in a very high crime neighborhood. U Hartford, also a nice campus, although technically on the edge of Hartford really feels more as if it’s in West Hartford, doesn’t feel as if it’s in a war zone. But it is far less selective, and the student body reflects that. U Hartford should only be on this young man’s list if there is the potential for huge merit money (which there is).
Yeah, it isn’t a great fit.
The non-Amherst UMass schools have some characteristics that make them unique safeties (almost guaranteed admission; low cost; will take his 2+ semesters DE credit so the schedule is more flexible; close to home if he decides that is something he wants), but none were that attractive really.
Lowell has lots of engineering options, but not many non-engineering options he likes. It is also the kind of spread out, not as well defined, unattractive campus that he doesn’t really like.
Boston has more non-engineering options, but very few engineering options. And also has a campus he doesn’t like.
Dartmouth has a better campus (although I still would not call it attractive), and the minimum required majors in both engineering & non-engineering.
Honestly, it is exactly the kind of safety students are advised not to apply to—he’d really be disappointed if that was his only choice. None of the other schools closer than 2 hours with very high chance of admission were any better, though. (Most were 15-20K more expensive for about the same programs, and wouldn’t take much of the DE credit.)
I might talk to him about making Lowell his nearby safety instead. If he ended up going there, and decided engineering isn’t for him, he could transfer to some other school with better non-engineering options. And Lowell is close enough that if he really hated the campus he could commute (although I would highly discourage that for him).
I think the comment about a bigger public flagship possibly being a better social/academic fit than a smaller, less selective private or public school is intriguing. I hadn’t thought about it from that perspective, but it makes sense.
By the way, he did get his June SAT score back: 1500 (750 on English again; increased math to 750).
That should be high enough to submit anywhere he would consider, although it is closer to the 25th percentile at some of the more selective schools.
U Hart has been having financial troubles for a while - something to keep in mind.
Agree with PP - Trinity campus is really not in a good location.
So with a 1500 SAT, would he be applying to UMass Amherst also? He should be, in my opinion.
For sure things…you know he can apply to more than one, right?