Sorry posting this again, I think to the right forum this time.
Wanted to understand if there is any advantage in choosing MSM pre college over Mannes Prep, if one gets into both. Is MSM considered more ‘serious’ than Mannes prep? Daughter (10) plays the violin and bassoon.
deepgamble,
I don’t know NYC prep programs. My son graduated from NEC’s prep program. But what I can tell you is what is more important than which one is more serious or perceived as “better” is which one would your daughter be happiest at. Does she have friends attending either program? Does she know any of the teachers at the prep program? Does she like one part of town over another part of town.
What you do not want is for your child to sour on music or loose the enjoyment they get from taking time from their busy schedules to attend such a program. You want a child who exits a prep program to be even more enthusiastic and excited about learning and music. You do not want a child who feels “judged” “second rate” “exhausted” “overworked” “unenthusiastic” “bitter” “jealous” “inferior” …well you get the idea.
I sent a kid off to NEC prep who was a mediocre musician. My kid graduated from prep more in love with music than ever and was accepted to top conservatories. He just graduated and he is now in the words of his prep teacher, “a fantastic musician”.
So focus on the right things and your child will grow into a wonderful young happy woman…which in the end should be your primary goal.
Can’t speak to MSM, but my child has had a wonderful experience with excellent instruction at Mannes Prep on piano and oboe, has been inspired by theory class, and voice teachers (not at Mannes) have commented on how much the work at Mannes Prep has positively impacted my child’s vocal studies. DC had been studying piano elsewhere for a few years and we’ve seen enormous growth in a short time at Mannes. We have two friends there who are there for violin (former School for Strings students), and their families are very happy. Are there teachers at either that might help you make your decision?
Thanks for the comments. Really useful. We are moving from abroad so don’t really anyone in these schools well enough already. Which is compounded by the fact that neither I nor my partner know anything about music, so it is a bit hard for us to judge the quality of education/ teachers etc. apart from what we can see on the website. She seems to like both places equally so we will see.
So are you unable to visit because you are abroad? Has your daughter been to both? The vibe is different, so I would have thought she might have a preference. You really cannot go wrong, and if the fit is wrong, she will learn anyway and can switch next year. Posting the following info for others who might be reading this, assuming you have read them!
Will she be in 5th grade and do the pre-senior program? at Mannes? http://www.newschool.edu/mannes/pre-senior-program/ It looks like the auditions were in May, so I am assuming your daughter did them and passed.
Mannes Pre-Senior Program
Grades 5-8
Private Instruction: 1-hour class
Techniques of Music: 1-hour class
Workshops and Recitals
Ensembles: Concert Orchestra, Symphony, Junior or Intermediate Chorus
The Pre-Senior Program is designed for students in grades 5-8. Techniques of Music classes include written theory and ear training and introduce works from the literature in order to prepare students for the Senior Program curriculum.
Here is Manhattan’s program (ditto on auditions):
The Precollege Division of Manhattan School of Music is a full-day Saturday music program for students between the ages of 5 and 18. Students are admitted by audition only. There are currently about 475 students enrolled in the Precollege Division, and approximately 140 faculty members.
In addition to a complete classical music curriculum, there is a jazz curriculum of the Precollege Division, in which classical students can take classes in jazz by audition only. Visit our Jazz Program for more information
Each student receives a weekly private lesson and augments their studies with classes such as theory and ear training, orchestra, chorus, composition, conducting, and chamber groups. There are chamber music and concerto competitions every year, with winners performing in a public concert. Performances are scheduled throughout the year in our various recital halls as well as in the main auditorium.
Here is the curriculum: http://www.msmnyc.edu/Precollege/Program/Curriculum
I personally would go with Manhattan, based on our visits to these two schools (though there have been changes at Mannes in recent years) and the above info. But every kid and family are different.
StacJip’s posts are always very wise 
FYI I believe Prep School auditions are simply for placement purposes only and not for whether a child is admitted to the program.
Personally if I were you I would choose which ever one more convenient for you. I suspect there are good teachers at both. And yes she can always switch if there is a problem.
Don’t worry about not knowing anything about music. Just enjoy the music she makes and let her be your guide.
Thanks for the correction StacJip…relieved to hear they are for placement purposes only.
@stackjip:
At all three of the major prep programs in NYC, Mannes, MSM and Juilliard, the audition is to gain admission, they give theory and ear training exams for placement, but you get in based on an audition in front of a panel.
In terms of hierarchy the toughest admit is Juilliard’s pre college program on the whole, MSM is slightly less tough and Mannes is a bit below MSM (and keep in mind this is on average, and doesn’t necessarily mean one is better than the other). You will see teachers who teach at all three programs, so the level of teaching is pretty close (there are good teachers at all the schools, and some not so good ones, depending on the instrument/area).
Because Juilliard has the name it does (much like the college), it attracts very, very talented kids and they don’t admit a lot, so to get past pre screening on violin, for example, takes a lot (before pre screening, they would audition 130 kids for sometimes as few as 10 slots).
That doesn’t mean that MSM and Mannes are inferior or not worth going to, like anything else, it depends on the area the kid in interested in. I cannot speak for the Bassoon, but with violin there are great players going to both Mannes and MSM, and there are top notch teachers at both places, and like with conservatory, the teacher is going to be important. Yeah, there are cultural differences, on violin at Juilliard and to a certain extent at MSM you will see kids in their teens who already are soloing with major orchestras, you won’t necessarily see that caliber of kid at Mannes. All three offer ensemble training (chamber, orchestra), because the range of players is wider at MSM and Mannes, the orchestra and chamber experience may be a bit lower level than Juilliard, but that likely isn’t going to matter much for a student.
Put it this way, kids from all three programs end up going into music, and getting into high level conservatories and music schools, so the level of preparation is there, it is really going to depend on the teacher being a fit and being a strong teacher who works well for the child. I believe all three programs would require her to choose a principal instrument, she may be able to minor on the second one, but from what I saw (and it is only that) kids generally end up choosing an instrument and staying with that ( I saw a girl at Juilliard who was double majoring on Cello and Piano and was at an incredible level on both, but that is pretty rare).
If it were me, I would focus on the teacher on the principal instrument and then after that, decide whether you like the culture. Despite the popular perception, neither of the 3 schools are cutthroat, and what usually happens is kids find others like themselves within the schools. It also depends on what drives the student, if they are driven forward by being around kids where many of them are more advanced than they are, then MSM might have the edge given the general level of playing there, Mannes might be a bit more laid back than MSM and that might suit others.
@musicprnt gives great advice. In our search, we focused primarily on the teachers, in our case, for the secondary instrument, as we had other instruction the primary. Since you’re abroad, maybe researching individual instructors’ online presence, videos, other collaborations, etc. will help with the decision. And yes, it may take time to find the right fit – you can always make a change!
Thanks for everyone’s interest and comments. Grateful for the insights. Yes, she did the auditions at both places when we visited and we did notice that Mannes appeared more relaxed and friendly with many more younger kids. As many of you have pointed out, the crucial thing is the teacher( she has a fantastic teacher currently but that didn’t happen because of us. We just got lucky).
And therein lies the issue ! Not trying to bang on about lack of musical knowledge but to us all the faculty profiles seem similar. Everybody has passed out of a major conservatory, has a string of orchestral and other performance credits and has been on the faculty rolls for 10 years or so !
I exaggerate of course, but you can see how difficult it is for us to really figure out what is the fit we should be looking for. However, it is heartening to note that people move between these places so even in the worst case scenario, whatever decision we make, we will get it right the next time !
Interesting Musicprnt…I did not know that about NYC prep programs. NEC prep admits everyone who wants to attend. You do have to audition for things like chamber groups and orchestral groups but all levels are accepted into the prep program on all instruments regardless of level. In the Boston area the only competition for NEC is a program at Rivers. The curriculum at Rivers is similar but the number of kids is considerably smaller and so there are not quite as many opportunities.
I LOVED NEC prep. I was amazed at how willing my son was to wake up at 7am on Saturdays and go spend his entire day there. No matter how bad things were going in HS he always emerged from Jordon Hall with a smile on his face. The teachers were mentors who are now my son’s friends and colleagues. They supported him not just with music but as a person. And my son met friends there who he still plays with and performs with today. It was where his musical career began and I think it is amazing that four years after graduating from it, it still is part of his life.
DeepGamble I hope your child has a wonderful Prep school experience regardless of where she ends up. Sometimes as parents we just have to go with our gut and hope it works out. When I enrolled my son in Prep I had no idea what I was doing. My son had asked because he knew kids from HS and Districts who were doing Prep. I cringed at the cost and reluctantly wrote the checks.
@deepgamble:
A lot is going to depend on what you are looking for. In the violin world for example, there tends to be the kids who go into it who have the desire to be a soloist, who focus heavily on that, and there are the others who tend to look more towards ensemble playing. For the soloist style kids, they tend to focus on things like getting to the major reperatory as soon as possible, focus on competitions and the like, and that kind of kid generally seeks out certain teachers. Some teachers emphasize musicality, others emphasize the technical brilliance, and that can play into this. If your daughter is very musical but has technical challenges to clear up, then a teacher that emphasizes the technical might be advantageous, if she is strong technically but needs to work on the music, a different teacher might be indicated (and keep in mind these are just my opinions).
Mannes does have a different culture, my take on it (and keep in mind it is just that) is that with Mannes they seek more of a community music school feel to it, whereas MSM and Juilliard tend to try and create a conservatory in miniature. That is not a knock at all, and it also doesn’t totally describe MSM or Juilliard either (both of them from what I know also emphasize community and such, and my son still says his time at Juiliard pre college were some of the best of his life).
The other nice part is you can start at one program then audition for another one, and as child gets older you may find they want to try a different program/teacher. If they feel comfortable enough, they may for example want to try and get into Juilliard’s program, or MSM’s, if they went to Mannes, or if they go to MSM and decide it isn’t for them, they could move to one of the other programs. On violin, in any of the programs, there are more than a few teachers, and if the one you choose doesn’t work out you there is the ability to switch teachers (it isn’t always easy, depending on the teacher, but it can be done) so you aren’t necessarily locked into anything.
The Mannes site says this: “Mannes Prep welcomes students ages 4-18 (pre-K through high school) at all levels, from absolute beginners through advanced students aspiring to professional careers. Each student’s curriculum is individually tailored to include age- and level-appropriate class and ensemble assignments.” This makes it sound as if auditions would be for placement only. Does anyone know for sure?
MM says this: “Every student who wishes to enroll in the Precollege Division must perform an entrance audition before a panel of faculty. The applicant must also take theory and ear training placement tests, and placement auditions for orchestra and/or chorus. These placement exams have no bearing on whether or not an applicant is accepted. However, they are a mandatory component of the audition process. Results of the entrance audition will be available on the Precollege Admissions portal within three weeks of the audition. Please note: The Precollege Division is not for beginning students on any instrument.”
So Mannes takes beginners, MSM does not. Mannes is a Prep and MM is a “precollege.”
Since the original poster’s daughter has done auditions already, this may not be relevant to the original thread so apologize for the tangent, although the policies on admissions may reflect differences in culture that are relevant to the OP.
ps In Boston Longy used to be the only competitor for NEC Prep…until it closed a few years back.
The bassoon world is very different from the violin world. I know virtually nothing about strings, and you’ve got lots of parents on this forum who do. My daughter plays the other double reed instrument, so I am only tangentially familiar, If bassoon is top priority, I would say choose the teacher first, program second. Based on bios, Marc Goldberg at Mannes (who is the bassoon teacher at Juilliard pre college, and his performing credentials read very well) would be my first pick of the teachers at the schools you mention, but you’re better off getting advice within the bassoon world, which is very small. The best teachers are not always the most impressive musicians, and an insider can lead you to the gems, or at least tell you what to look for. The IDRS bassoon editor is a super nice guy, he might be able to steer you. https://www.idrs.org/about/officers.php
In NYC, Frank Morelli is probably too busy to take young students, but he’s one of those rare, magical bassoonists who plays like his massive instrument doesn’t weigh him down one bit. Definitely worth taking your daughter to hear him play as frequently as practical.
As many others have already pointed out, the most important part of your decision needs to be the teacher. Our children both had wonderful experiences at Mannes (when it was still uptown) but eventually our daughter needed a different oboe teacher, and she switched to MSM. Her overall experience there was excellent (great orchestral opportunities, great oboe teacher at the time) Our son was primarily interest in theory, composition and conducting, and had a good experience staying on at Mannes. And it’s not just a matter of the teacher’s overall prestige or reputation…it really is all about the “fit”; what’s right for a 10 year old is quite different from what’s right for a grad student!
No experience with Mannes, but my daughter (cello) just graduated after spending 3 years in the MSM Precollege Program. We really can’t say enough good things about this program. My daughter’s cello teacher was also regular MSM faculty, so she got to spend three years studying with a well-respected conservatory teacher. It costs more to have a precollege student study with a regular MSM teacher, but in our opinion it was well worth the additional expense. This option is available for many instruments, including violin - there are some truly excellent violin teachers at MSM.
Your daughter is still young, but for high school students the MSM experience was valuable for several reasons. First, since it requires a great deal of commitment on the part of the students, it helps students to decide whether pursuing music at the college or conservatory level will be the right choice for them. Second, the program really does provide excellent preparation for conservatory auditions. My daughter was accepted at 7 top conservatory programs, and her friends from MSM had very similar results. The class of 2015 actually had 2 students accepted at Curtis, which was quite remarkable. MSM was also helpful in the audition process by making its facilities available to precollege students. My daughter was able to use the MSM recording studio for her prescreening recordings (at a discounted rate because she was a precollege student), and the recordings were excellent quality.
Another important aspect of the precollege experience was that it allowed my daughter to spend time with other students who were as focused as she was on music and the conservatory audition process. Applying to music schools is very different from other types of college applications, especially for students in prescreened majors. Those students must audition for the right to audition, apply to the schools, wait for prescreening results, and if they are positive then must go through the live audition process. It is grueling and stressful, and my daughter’s experience was that none of the faculty, administration or other students in her public high school had any understanding of what she was going through or what she was trying to accomplish. The students at MSM were very supportive of each other, and the faculty was wonderful. I think it really helped my daughter and her friends to be in that nurturing environment during audition season.