Many Dartmouth courses have a median grade of A or A-

[bluebayou]

<p>btw: even Caltech had a mean of 3.5 in '06. </p>

<p><a href=“the%20median%20GPA%20for%20Caltech’s%20Class%20of%202006%20was%203.5”>quote</a>.

[/quote]
</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.admissions.caltech.edu/uploads/File/CaltechMedicalScholars.pdf[/url]”>http://www.admissions.caltech.edu/uploads/File/CaltechMedicalScholars.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[Consolation]

<p>I’ve known a lot of MIT students in my day, and I don’t remember hearing that ANY of them ever failed a class, much less taking it as a given that they would do so. </p>

<p>Of course, I also had a lot of fun at the U of C, which prided itself on the “where fun goes to die” thing. :rolleyes:</p>

<p>For those of you who bemoan the idea that D doesn’t have any way to distinguish truly exceptional performance, I remind you of the citation, mentioned above.</p>

<p>

Grad schools definitely care about how good a student is (at least medical, law, or other rigorous grad programs care).

</p>

<p>Are you seriously suggesting that other grad programs do not care how good their students are? Really?? </p>

<p>It would probably come as a big surprise to you that the acceptance rate at most of the top MFA writing programs is about 1%. Yet the MOST selective medical schools accept about 3.4%.</p>

[texaspg]

<p>I have talked to the Caltech admissions officer last year and he mentioned that UCSD bends some rules to admit some of them in the med school because it has not been so easy to keep 3.5.</p>

<p>D mentioned a Caltech student going to Yale med school last year because he has a great story. He was doing a premed presentation at admitted weekend and had a GPA of 3.3.</p>

[bluebayou]

<p>^^That 40+ MCAT probably didn’t hurt. :D</p>

[TheGFG]

<p>Regarding how employers differentiate among all the Dartmouth/elite school “A” students: A few employers request the SAT scores of new college graduates, and many are relying on their own quantitative assessments to determine which candidates have the goods. In interviews, my kids have taken IQ tests, done brain teasers and math problems, and have completed case studies and analyses of data. D’s CS friends have had to write code and answer technical questions.</p>

[luisarose]

<p>

Are you seriously suggesting that other grad programs do not care how good their students are? Really?? </p>

<p>It would probably come as a big surprise to you that the acceptance rate at most of the top MFA writing programs is about 1%. Yet the MOST selective medical schools accept about 3.4%.

</p>

<p>No no no!!! That’s not what I meant at all! I’m interested in STEM so that’s all I really know about. I have less than no knowledge about other fields. I didn’t mean to imply that the opposite was true; only that I didn’t know enough to comment :)</p>

[Beliavsky]

<p>

@TheGFG

A few employers request the SAT scores of new college graduates, and many are relying on their own quantitative assessments to determine which candidates have the goods. In interviews, my kids have taken IQ tests, done brain teasers and math problems, and have completed case studies and analyses of data.

</p>

<p>I continue to wonder why employers don’t hire bright high school graduates on this basis. Someone should start a firm that maintains a database of college acceptances. Employers who desire the attributes that holistic admissions considers could hire high school graduates with acceptance letters from target schools.</p>

[TheGFG]

<p>^ I agree. If companies are looking for raw brain power they can train, they could snag that 4 years earlier and perhaps pay less for it.</p>

[texaspg]

<p>There is a program like that where some billionaire is giving money to 20-25 people not to go to college for two years and concentrate on their interests. Forgot the name of that scholarship.</p>

[Beliavsky]

<p>Thiel Fellowship</p>

[frazzled2thecore]

<p>@Beliavsky - </p>

<p>Yikes - about half the students from our public high school who would be competitive for trophy schools do not even apply, for various reasons. (I am sure that this could be multipled across many, many states.) </p>

<p>So now the student with 750-750-750 (or better) uncoached SAT’s, top 5% of class, some impressive EC’s and state level or national awards, etc., who would be perfectly happy going to their flagship outside of CA, MI, or VA, or a CTCL school, or a school that will give them merit money and a chance to pursue their interest on a deep level, is going to apply to a dozen or more trophy schools that they have no interest in attending and that might not even be a good fit, just to remain competitive in the job market years down the road? Really???</p>

[Beliavsky]

<p>

@frazzled2thecore

So now the student with 750-750-750 (or better) uncoached SAT’s, top 5% of class, some impressive EC’s and state level or national awards, etc., who would be perfectly happy going to their flagship outside of CA, MI, or VA, or a CTCL school, or a school that will give them merit money and a chance to pursue their interest on a deep level, is going to apply to a dozen or more trophy schools that they have no interest in attending and that might not even be a good fit, just to remain competitive in the job market years down the road? Really???

</p>

<p>They can pocket the merit scholarship instead of blowing $240K on HYP but still use the most meaningful HYP credential, the acceptance letter, for career advancement. Sounds good to me, although the overpriced universities may disagree.</p>

[RacinReaver]

<p>

It is a fools’ errand to attempt to compare advanced STEM classes to a Intro in XXX course, in the same way one would not compare Introduction to Statistical Analyses to an advanced class in Russian Lit. The same classes are harder to some and easier to others. Most students are pretty good in various subjects, but it would be obnoxious and pedant to pretend that STEM majors waltz through their humanities’ requirements. Just as it would for “humanities majors” to pretend that STEM classes could be a walk in the park, if they cared enough about the classes. There are plenty of really hard classes in every major.

</p>

<p>The courses I listed were not “advanced” STEM courses. That was my schedule the fall of my sophomore year. The history class was listed as a 300-level course, higher than anything I was taking in engineering at the time. I was the only non-humanities student in the class, and I put a decent amount of work into it. It was only at the end of the class, during a study session with half of the class (there were only 15 or so of us) I found out I was the only person that had actually read the books we were assigned.</p>

<p>At my school, humanities classes were known by the STEM community as being grade boosters, and a nice way to pad your schedule when you had an otherwise brutal course load.</p>

<p>

btw: even Caltech had a mean of 3.5 in '06. </p>

<p>

Quote:
(the median GPA for Caltech’s Class of 2006 was 3.5).
<a href=“http://www.admissions.caltech.edu/uploads/File/CaltechMedicalScholars.pdf[/url]”>http://www.admissions.caltech.edu/uploads/File/CaltechMedicalScholars.pdf&lt;/a&gt;

</p>

<p>Please note the difference between mean and median. The median won’t be skewed by a long tail (which I can verify does exist here) while a mean will. I’ve found my classes tend to have a lot of A/A- students that are amazing at what they do with 40% understanding it well, but not really making those connections in the material which would cause them to stand out (typically a B), and then the rest, which are distributed among C, D, and F.</p>

[bluebayou]

<p>^^of course you are correct, but my main point was that half the kids at Caltech have a ~3.5. And I found that surprising, at a school reported for grade deflation. (Yes, the top half are really smart folks. But even the bottom half are much, much ‘smarter than the average bear’.)</p>

[cobrat]

<p>

But even the bottom half are much, much ‘smarter than the average bear’.)

</p>

<p>In practice, what I’ve observed and heard from many supervisors and others who do hiring is that GPA is often viewed more as a proxy for amount of work ethic within a given cohort at a particular college. </p>

<p>Main things they want are strong work ethic, punctuality in arrival/deadlines, ability to learn on their feet(a.k.a. Be quick studies/knowing how to figure things out) with minimal handholding, and not demonstrate abysmal incompetence or flakiness with completing projects/commitments. </p>

<p>Low undergrad GPAs to many of those I’ve talked with means the applicant may need to be watched more closely for falling short in those areas…especially if they’re the “highly intelligent, but lazy” sorts. From what I’ve seen with those with low GPAs(2.x and below) where curving/harsh grading isn’t an issue, those employers have some valid concerns.</p>

[mamalion]

<p>Over the last 10 years or so, under pressure from grade inflation, I have raised by grades. I give less than 30% A’s and about 30% B+'s, but that is way up from 20 years ago. It still is enough to get me dinged as a hard grader. </p>

<p>Here’s why I have something like a curve. About 30% of my students at a state flagship do not have the academic work ethic and/or time to do the work of an A. They may have jobs, sports, and/or family obligations that make it impossible. Another subset, perhaps overlapping, do not have the brain power, be that focus, IQ, desire, talent in the field. Then there are a bunch of really smart, really talented students with the time to grow and master complexity. How do I engage, teach, nurture, and motivate them if I am allowing space for the other students to master the material? One of the ways to do this is to make the criteria for an A high enough that they have to work, reflect, research, revise, and define problems beyond the text. The criteria for an A should be clear, but it should reflect work.</p>

<p>I would argue that even at Dartmouth there are reasons to give grades other than A.</p>

[Consolation]

<p>Thank you, mamalion, for the reality check. Rest assured, plenty of non-A grades are given at Dartmouth.</p>

<p>Just as a matter of interest, I looked at my S’s transcript, and discovered that he had taken one of the large intro courses cited in an early post. The average grade that term was a B+. Perhaps that is still “too high” in the view of some, but it is certainly not an A–and indicates that there must have been a fair number of Bs and Cs to go round.</p>

[texaspg]

<p>In a large intro class with a curve of B+, there will be plenty of Cs and a few failures.</p>

[Beliavsky]

<p>

@Consolation

The average grade that term was a B+. Perhaps that is still “too high” in the view of some, but it is certainly not an A–and indicates that there must have been a fair number of Bs and Cs to go round.

</p>

<p>Dartmouth reports <em>median</em> grades. The median grade could be a B+ without any student getting less than a B.</p>

[Beliavsky]

<p>Dartmouth student Brian Solomon has written a few articles on grade inflation there:</p>

<p>[TheDartmouth.com:</a> Solomon: A is for Average](<a href=“http://thedartmouth.com/2011/03/03/opinion/solomon]TheDartmouth.com:”>http://thedartmouth.com/2011/03/03/opinion/solomon)</p>

<p>

After all, if your class median is an A-minus or above (a situation that describes the majority of classes at Dartmouth over the last four years), why would you push yourself to achieve? You can already get a top grade for doing only average work.

</p>

<p>Other writings by Solomon on this topic can be found by Googling “solomon grade inflation dartmouth”. Grade inflation is likely as severe at other Ivies. More information is available about Dartmouth because of the statistics it releases, to its credit.</p>