Master in Architecture (MArchI)

College Majors Architecture Major
1

<p>Time to start gathering information. I know this query would most likely get more responses on the art or graduate board, but I’m used to this group so to all you architects out there (and spouses and parents thereof) I’d would appreciate some facts – and opinions… .</p>

<p>My son is a rising senior at Williams, majoring in art studio and art history. His GPA overall is in the B+ range and in his major he’s looking at mostly all A’s. He will have a strong portfolio and excellent recommendations.</p>

<p>After a good deal of back and forth between architecture and museum work, architecture seems to have floated to the top and now he needs to decide whether to apply now or to take a post graduate work + gap year. For argument’s sake, let’s say that he applies to architecture school in December.</p>

<li><p>How important is the GRE? Is it worth it to devote time to a preparation course or can you assume that your score will be in the same range as your SATI?</p></li>
<li><p>Is it possible to get a summer job (even unpaid) at an architecture firm in New York or Boston with a minimum of experience? He will have taken a year of architectural drawing and have good recommendations from art related internships, but his architecture experience per se is limited. Any tips on which firms to start with?</p></li>
<li><p>How many schools do you typically apply to? Is it the same as undergrad: Reach/Match/Safety?
What GPA, scores do you need to get into the various schools? </p></li>
<li><p>Is it possible to get accepted and defer for a year like undergrad?</p></li>
<li><p>And lastly, any recommendations on specific schools? He knows which schools offer the MArchI but he finds it difficult to differentiate between them. He would like to stay on the East Coast (or maybe the Midwest). But other than that he’s quite open to exploring options.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>I’d also like to take this opportunity to tip my hat to Curmudgeon for my new favorite post-graduate advice mantra:</p>

<p>

</p>

2

<p>I am an architect and live in NYC. You're probably right about using this board. I have gone through some of the other boards and most posters are not knowlegdeable but are quick with an opinion. I actually don't have answers to most of your questions. I won't spout out anything that I am not knowledgeable about. </p>

<p>It is possible to get an internship but I don't believe it will be easy. The quote you have posted could not be more true. There have to be Williams alum who are architects that should, at a minimum, provide some guidance if not possible internships. The only other architect I know on these boards is Mathmom who graduated from Harvard's graduate school and might provide more specific information. </p>

<p>Some words of advice if you have not heard them already. I heard them and ignored them. It is not a high-paying profession. If you get no satisfaction from the work itself, try something else. If you get past that, one of the most important skills to have on top of design skills is to be able to market yourself. If you want your own firm, you must either have personal connections (typically family and friends) or be able to constantly market yourself in whatever situation you are in.</p>

<p>One reason I can't be more helpful is that I work for the government and don't feel that that is useful place for a young architect. It is not a good place to learn the craft.</p>

3

<p>Mathmom, chiming in - actually I was just an undergrad at Harvard, and went to Columbia for Architecture school. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>I was a student member of the admissions committee at Columbia's M Arch program 20 years ago, so my info on admissions is OLD. That said - we were fine with GREs of 650+ or so. Maybe even 600s. My GREs were just slightly higher than my SATs except for the logical reasoning section which was a little lower. We looked at grades - B or better in Calculus and lab Physics. Recommendations were pretty important. We looked carefully at all the portfolios, but boy were they hard to evaluate. People come to MArchs from all sorts of backgrounds, we had photographers, dancers, artists and people in pretty high powered undergrad architecture programs. I liked to see some kind of indication in the portfolio that the student had some reason for choosing architecture - some drawings or photos of buildings at the very least!</p></li>
<li><p>I never had any luck finding architecture internships in college. I did offer a student a spring break internship this spring. It was fun - but honestly, an undergrad can really only be minimally helpful - so I do understand why it's hard to find internships.</p></li>
<li><p>I have no idea how hard it is to get into architecture school these days. I think I applied to MIT, Harvard, Columbia and maybe Rice? I was a pretty good student at Harvard - especially in my major which consisted of alot of architecture history and studio art classes.</p></li>
<li><p>I accepted and deferred a year at Columbia. I did call before applying to make sure it was possible. I had also applied for a Youthgrant to photograph fire houses and didn't want to have to turn it down, or apply to grad school during a year when I would have no fixed address if I got the grant.</p></li>
<li><p>There are plenty of good schools - Columbia, Yale, RISD, Harvard, UVA. All tend to be a bit theoretical. I personally, don't much care for what's coming out of Columbia these days. There was a lot more variety and schools of thought when I was there. Carnegie-Mellon, Rice, USC and U of Washington in St. Louis all had excellent schools in my day. You can also get a good and somewhat more practical education at more techie schools. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>There are some amusing listings about good schools. Take with a grain of salt: <a href="http://www.archsoc.com/kcas/researchschool4.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.archsoc.com/kcas/researchschool4.html&lt;/a> and <a href="http://www.di.net/article.php?article_id=178%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.di.net/article.php?article_id=178&lt;/a> </p>

<p>Architecture isn't a high paying profession. But it's been good to me. I was able to follow around my academic husband till he settled down. I think the most important skill is to like people, to listen to them and be willing to give them what they want. I moved to this area when my kids were young, but have built up a practice solely on word of mouth and some neighborhood connections. I'm not shy about mentioning that I'm an architect and have gotten jobs that way though.</p>

<p>Finally, getting that first architecture job can be hard. There is a lot to be said for going to grad school where you think you want to practice. I did find a job eventually in Pasadena, but it was a long six months, and it did come through a Columbia connection.</p>

4

<p>With respect, Architecture can be a very high paying profession if you are the principal of a successful firm.</p>

<ol>
<li>Is he a CAD whiz? If he is, then he might be able to get a job in New York or Boston--check out craigslist. If he is not a CAD whiz, I'd say the chances are slim unless he wants to work for free. An internship prior to any archtiectural training is pushing it, IMO, but soozie's daughter did one at a small firm in Vermont.</li>
</ol>

<p>Does he have any friends who are architects in New York or Boston? That is the best way to get an interview at a top firm. </p>

<p>Think outside of the box too. Could he work his way into any sort of architectural criticism job at a paper or a magazine? That would be a real CV builder for grad school. Can he do that at Williams this year? Remember, architecture grad schools are run by theorists. Also, he might keep his eye out for archtiectural competitions. That's another CV builder for grad school--and for future jobs and clients. Architects LOVE prize winners. </p>

<ol>
<li> Reach Match Safety is an excellent idea. If he wants to work in a top firm in Boston or New York, the feeder schools are the usual suspects on the East Coast. The portfolio will be important--both going into grad school and getting a top apprentice position.<br></li>
</ol>

<p>Some schools are known for specific aspects of architecture. For example, Princeton has a reputation for training architects who go on to become teachers and professors. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>Why apply early if he is going to take a year out? I would hold off if he knows he is going to take a Gap year. He can use that year to build his portfolio. </p></li>
<li><p>It depends on what sort of career he sees for himself. When BA students go to grad school, they are on a lower track whilst the BArch students, often coming into grad school after two or three years of work experience, are on the higher track. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>In the job market, there is a huge difference in the portfolios of BArch/MArchs with 14 semesters of architectural design studios and BA/MArchs with 6 semesters of architectural design studios. Most of my co-workers in top NYC firms were BArchs/Marchs. All the lead designers had BArchs. I generally hire BArchs.</p>

<p>Check out past forums. I loved the past posts by I_Wonder, a recent Cornell BArch who graduated from Harvard GSD. She was the only CC arch student poster. She's long gone now but her posts give a crystal view into life inside highly competitive MArch programs. </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=64639&highlight=harvard+GSD%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=64639&highlight=harvard+GSD&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

5

<p>With respect from July 05 issue of Building Design and Construction: Average compensation for principals and partners in 2005 was $159,800.</p>

<p>By comparison "A study on lawyer salaries in 2003 showed that the average salary of a partner in a law firm was about $593,758 whereas a fifth-year associate drew approximately $126,270. The salary of the legal assistant was around $45,797." from <a href="http://www.clearleadinc.com/site/lawyer-information.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.clearleadinc.com/site/lawyer-information.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>BTW Big firms (250+) pay best but about 9% above average, small ones (less than 10) pay 25% less than average. (The largest firm I worked for had 15 or so people - silly me!) </p>

<p>Good salary info for architects at: <a href="http://www.aia.org/siteobjects/files/econ_2005conventionpres.ppt%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.aia.org/siteobjects/files/econ_2005conventionpres.ppt&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>That cc link didn't work. :(</p>

6

<p>Thanks so much for the thorough and thoughtful responses. As usual, answers beget more questions so thanks in advance for helping me (us?) plough through this process. I’m confident that my son will get good advice at Williams, so this info is really more for me to get an elementary understanding of what he’s facing. The search and apply process is really deja vu all over again for me – learning the acronyms, the personalities of the individual schools, the nuances of applications and credentials.</p>

<p>New Questions/Comments
1. About the GRE
Can you (should you) take the GRE more than once like the SATI? If my son decides to apply this year he’ll only have one shot, but if he takes a year off between graduation and application that would allow for more preparation and retake. It doesn’t seem to me that the GRE scores are a make or break proposition in Architecture, though, so I’m not sure that it’s worth worrying about.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>About timing
The reason that he’s thinking about applying then deferring is that he’d like that year’s break but feels that he should take advantage of the Williams momentum and apply when his recommenders’ memories are fresh and is surrounded by other kids who are going through similar processes. The disadvantage is that he’ll need to take calculus which will be NO FUN for a humanities minded kid who hasn’t done math for several years. </p></li>
<li><p>About internships
For a summer, unpaid is okay. For a year it’s difficult. He knows a lot of people who can help him if he’ll take the initiative of asking. What I’m wondering is if, like work experience for business school, architecture work experience is a necessity for grad school acceptance. He has ample work experience but it’s all been museum oriented.</p></li>
<li><p>About choice of schools
Just like undergraduate apply lists, the top schools are easy to identify and love. The art schools like RISD also have distinctive characters. It’s the difference between the Big U’s that is difficult to determine.</p></li>
<li><p>About income
Understood. He’s worried that he’ll not be able afford the tropical resorts that he loves to design. The only consolation is that architecture actually pays more than his other career choice, museum work. Or maybe he’ll get a law degree on top of architecture and therefore stay in college for the rest of his income earning days. :)</p></li>
</ol>

<p>To Alan Arch:
Yes, I think Williams will play a big role in helping my son make connections. He’s learned a lot about self promotion and I’m not worried about that area.</p>

<p>
[quote]
It is not a high-paying profession. If you get no satisfaction from the work itself, try something else.

[/quote]

This, unfortunately, has been repeated and reiterated by every architect we know. Or as one said, “there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Just more tunnel.” </p>

<p>To Mathmom:
My son did a summer program at Columbia and found it oppressive if that’s the right word. It may have just been that the summer “faculty” were not the realdeal.
Harvard is of course very interesting. The most accomplished Williams kids seem to choose either Harvard or Yale. I just don’t want him to focus exclusively on these super-reaches.
Thanks for the links.</p>

<p>To Cheers:
No, he is not so experienced in CAD. He has good computer fundamentals but definitely needs to focus on this area, which Williams is weak in. I think they’re still using pencil sharpeners.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Remember, architecture grad schools are run by theorists.

[/quote]

Williams is, however, profoundly good at theory. I think this will be his real trump card. He can talk and write about architecture until the cows come home.</p>

<p>He’s already made his bed as a BA student, generalist so that’s something he’ll have to live with. Williams has graduated a lot of successful architects so there’s hope but his friends who have chosen the BArch route are light years ahead in the job market.</p>

<p>Thanks for the links. There is just SO much information out there that it’s hard to sift through without a filter.</p>

7

<p>I still use a pencil sharpener, but I could never get away with it if I graduated today. Luckily my clients think it's neat that I do my own drawings. :)</p>

8

<p>Our office has to use CAD. We do large scale projects. Our clients prefer CAD drawings throughout the process. It's essential. A kid can do himself a BIG favor by making CAD proficiency a priority. Every office needs great CAD draughtsmen. If old boomers like myself and DH can force themselves to learn it, a 20-something has no excuse. </p>

<p>Anyway, CC posters consider a $159K salary 'low'?? Most Americans would choke to earn that kind of money. Your son could absolutely afford to visit resorts if he earned that money (not to mention that resort trips are deductible if yan architect has resort clients, <em>ahem</em>) . Chances are, if he starts a firm on the East Coast, his earnings will be higher than $159K. Assuming your future DIL works, it is possible that your son's family will be among the tippy top income earners in the US. </p>

<p>True, that architecture CAN be a low paying profession--most certainly compared to law and some branches of medicine and business. However, it CAN also be a high paying profession, particularily if you have a successful practice doing large scale projects. I hate to see high energy extroverts discouraged from the profession on the grounds that it is 'low paying'. </p>

<p>One of the reasons lawyers make more money is that the industry of litigation is much larger than the industry of design. The average size of law firms dwarfs the average size of architecture firms. The average size of all US architecture practices is 6 empolyees, while the average size of a 'small' law firm is 51 employees, my guess is the average office--small, medium or large--is probably close to 90 or 100.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.architects.org/education/index.cfm?doc_id=25#What_is_the_nature_of%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.architects.org/education/index.cfm?doc_id=25#What_is_the_nature_of&lt;/a>

[quote]
What are the income range and benefits I can expect?
Salaries are generally lower than those of other professions with equivalent educational / preparation requirements (law, medicine, business). Entry-level jobs for holders of Bachelor of Architecture or Master of Architecture degrees pay from $25,000 to $40,000 (1999 figures); annual increases usually include cost-of-living and "merit" increases.</p>

<p>Six to ten years out of graduate school, you may earn $45,000 (1999 figures). Generally, the only way to earn substantially more is to own your own firm or become a partner in a large firm. Even then, the average income range is from $70,000-100,000 (1999 figures).</p>

<p>Benefits often include health plans, other insurance and sometimes profit-sharing, in addition to the usual holidays, sick-time and vacation. Generally, the larger the firm, the greater the benefits. However, you should keep in mind that the benefits should be considered as only one issue in the choice of a job; for example, although a smaller firm might have fewer benefits, you are more likely to be given a wider range of tasks/responsibilities than in a larger firm.</p>

<p>What is the average size of an architecture firm?
Eighty percent of the firms in the U.S. are composed of six or fewer architects. The largest firms number 1,000 employees, often located in several regional offices.</p>

<p>Although the larger firms are more likely to be doing the largest projects, most firms are capable of handling a range of project sizes. With the increasing use of computers, more and more small-to-medium-size firms are better able to do larger projects than might have been possible for them in the past.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If you can't get through with that old forum link, try searching the old forum for the posts of I_Wonder. Worthwhile reading.</p>

<p>Also, keep in mind, architecture is an old man's/old ladies profession. The older you are, the bigger and better the project offered. In my experience in New York and around the world, the potential for BIG money happens once you have a few grey hairs. It is one of the few creative professions that favors age over youth.</p>

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<p>Posts from I_Wonder:

[quote]
I'm an architecture grad student at the Harvard GSD (I also did undergrad architecture at Cornell) and there are more than a few pomona/Luis Obispo people here. They are among the most talented people here and their graduates have a strong reprentative here on the east coast. I don't think you would do wrong by attending either program.
Landscape architecture studios (at least the cores) are a lot different than regular architecture studios. I personally think that taking landscape course work is beneficial to an architect, but make sure about your ability to transfer. I had a friend or two at Cornell who thought they could do that (it was more about tution) and they got caught when their transfer applications weren't approved. Is it possible to take regular arch. studios while in the landscape program?</p>

<p>I think that it smart to stick with the state arch programs at the undergrad level, especially if you plan on going to grad school in the future. Its WAY cheaper in the long run. If you are planning on getting a B.Arch professional degree, than you won't have to spend as much time in grad school and it will be even cheaper. </p>

<p>AS for pay...it really depends on location and experience. You won't be rolling in the dough at first, but you have to be willing to work hard and stick with it.</p>

<p>...THe outlook for archs right now is actually pretty good. compared to when I graduated from undergrad a few years ago and you couldn't give away your labor, people are getting plenty of job offers right now with decent pay and good benefits. Id say that the average salary that you could expect in your region with an undergrad degree is 37-45K, depending on your previous experience and the size of the firm.
...test scores and grades aren't extremely important when apply to 'good' design schools that require a portfolio. 2 of my good friends who went to Pomona had worse stats than you (I think one guys grad school app. stats were even worse) but they each had outstanding portfolios, resumes, and recommendations and they are doing just fine over here.
As for location, after NYC/Boston Cali is the hotspot for design. There are lots of firms doing interesting work (gehry, morphosis, eric owen moss, etc.) and a lot of innovative projects are being built. Chicago has its own vibe going on, but IIT (the current it design school in the area) is climbing in popularity (especially with its new Koolhaas building). there are a few firms doing cool research/work (like studio gang)
wAshington is somewhat dead...its got a really conservative design environment. There are a few firms that are breaking the box, but overall its really corporate environment.
THe midwest and the south is getting more attention these days because a lot of small firms are doing innovative projects. Check out Mack Scogin, Auburn (sam mockbee's building studio), Rick Joy, and others
For random architecture information check out archinect.com. there are links to lots of firms and projects, and they have a forum filled with architects and students with nothing better to do than answer your questions
...Like I said, it depends on experience, and most people graduating from school have at least 2 or 3 summers behind them. It may sound high but that is what people I know are getting in LA, Boston and NYC. It wouldn't be near as much in other cities. Low to mid 30s is more typical though.
On archinect there is a salary poll here:
<a href="http://archinect.com/salary_questionnaire/index.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://archinect.com/salary_questionnaire/index.php&lt;/a>
...In my program(M.ArchII) everyone has a B.Arch. In the M.ArchI program, the official word is that 50% of each class has a non-arch background (although that number is going down apparently). The liberal arts people are always complaining that the school doesn't do enough to bridge the skills gap between them and those with more experience. Its got to be hard, being in a core studio with people who have 4 or more years of school/work experience in the field.
In terms of salary they seem to only a little bit less than the B.Arch people with less experience (like me!). I guess its because of all those big name architects on their resume Of course, their are people in my M.ArchII program with like 10 years experience so they are totally not in my salary bracket
...The M.Arch1s have 2 years of core studios and then 2 options studios before thesis. In M.Arch2 we only do the option studios so its a much different experience. While there are separate option studios for the Arch, Landscape, and urban planning department, everyone is mixed in at the options level so you get a variety of people with different experiences in your studio. </p>

<p>The core program is quite different, and very rigid from what I can see. The core studios have your typical design school program: museums, housing, library, courthouses, etc. The option studios tackle various design problems that sometimes cross over into issues of urban design and redevelopment. Many times sponsors from around the world come to GSD looking for a group of students to approach an issue and come up with a different way of seeing and solving a problem. I had the opportunity to travel to Korea in order to develop strategies for the redevelopment of a south korean town that was being targeted for growth because of its proximity to the DMZ. This semester a developer sponsored my studio to travel to Croatia and come up with ideas for housing development on a parcel of land he had just purchased. The issues that we had to tackle in these studios were much broader than pure design development; because of the client and context of the design problems there were various issues that we had to address in our schemes. </p>

<p>As for a difference in the work, you can definitely see a difference in the work produced in core and that which is produced in the option studios. I think it has to do with the fact that the bar is raised by having 'star' professors lead the studios and having students from all different majors and degree programs mixed together. At
<a href="http://www.gsd.harvard.edu/studioworks/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.gsd.harvard.edu/studioworks/&lt;/a>
you can see examples of studio work from the past few years. A lot of the students whose work gets selected for publication are students who have had previous design experience.
...I was saying that 50% of the people in the M.Arch1 program (for people WITHOUT B.Archs) have no Architecture experience. The M.Arch1 program in 3.5 years long, unless you get AP standing and you only have to do 2.5 years. Only like 8 people out of a class of 60 get AP standing, and they usually went to one of 2 schools (Michigan or UF).Anyone who doesn't have a B.Arch degree would be entering the M.Arch1 program.
Your daughter (because she wouldn't have a B.Arch)would be in the M.Arch1 program.
All M.Arch2s have a B.Arch, and our program is 1.5 years long. We don't do the 'core', and we dont have a set curriculum. </p>

<p>The M.Arch1 program has like 220 people/ 53% women
The M.Arch1 AP 20 people/ 26% women
The M.Arch2 60 people/ 20% women</p>

<p>For Cheers, I AM saying that the big name stars usually only teach options. The core curriculum and design problems are 'set', and it wouldn't allow these guest professors to create their own design problems for exploration. In fact, whenever they have starchitects teach core it is always a problem because they stray from the curriculum and the students feel like they didn't learn the skills that their other classmates did. The complaint is that they want to learn the "harvard methodology" in core and explore in options.
Plus, leading core studios for people who don't have previous arch experience requires more one on one interaction than a visiting faculty can provide. These people usually have thriving practices elsewhere and they can't fly in every single week to check on their students. Some of them who are from overseas only come in 2 a month (I think that is how many times the GSD pays for them to come). Some pay out of their pocket to come more often. </p>

<p>A typical options studio has about 12 people, and I would say that in MY opinion, the best 2 projects have always been people who had a B.Arch. For the M.Arch1s, the best projects that I have seen have always been from people who had a B.S arch or some previous undergrad design experience. </p>

<p>It does seem that studioworks preferences men. I've seen the reviews of a lot of those studios and they don't always put the 'best' projects into to it. Im not going to lie, a lot of these teachers are male and they tend to preference nominating their "buddies", guys in the studio who kiss up to them constantly and hang out in their office and such. I must say, the guys at this school are more aggressive than the women in getting to know professors and getting this to work in their favor. Its not fair, but it works.
...Drj is right about the experience. You have can't just graduate with a degree and a smile! I had a couple of friends who graduated from architecture school with absolutely NO internship experience and so/so portfolios. It took well over a year for them to find jobs.</p>

<p>Also an interesting note for Cheers...there was a small uproar today at the GSD over a little study that some DDes (doctor of design) students did about the ratio of men to women representation in the studioworks publications. Officially its a 50/50 ratio, but when you take out the landscape department (which is about 85% female) it shoots up to 68% men. Hmm...

[/quote]
</p>

10

<p>Momrath, hey, thanks for starting this thread. It really isn't on my mind yet but your kid is a year ahead of my kid and so when she gets there, I can learn about it all from you! :D</p>

<p>Mine is off to a semester abroad in an architecture program in Florence in a couple of days. </p>

<p>I don't know much about this field (my D does) but she was home for just a few days and it so happened that there was a lecture about Frank Lloyd Wright in our tiny rural town two nights ago that I went to with her. We have a lot of architects in our town. It was interesting. I still have a model of a Frank Lloyd Wright house on my dining room table that she made at school. I don't know where to put it and don't wanna trash it. </p>

<p>Anyway, I can't answer any of your questions but I'm gonna enjoy reading the answers and then a year from now, asking YOU, the expert (that you are sure to become after your kid goes through the process). Maybe our kids will end up at the same place, for all we know. We haven't discussed it barely at all but she is an East Coast kinda person and had applied to college only in the East.</p>

11

<p>I don't think interning before an M.Arch program is critical, but it is critical to work summers while you're getting your grad degree. That was where having a California boyfriend (later husband) really did me in. If I had it to do over again I'd have gone to school in the LA area. One case where going to school where your boyfriend is, is really worth it! In his favor he really tried to like the New York possiblities but didn't find any biophysics type labs that interested him.</p>

12

<p>Cheers, I went back and read some of the dialogue from 2005 and realized that you gave me sound advice then that’s still valid. I need to read this over more thoroughly. I’m sure we’ll be in touch as this saga unfolds.</p>

<p>Soozie, Well, it may turn out that our kids are actually applying at the same time if my son decides to wait a year. Same situation, the student is pretty well up to speed about the whole process. These queries are more for me to catch up with him.</p>

<p>Mathmom, don’t even start with the “where is the girlfriend going to be next year?” :) We already have too many complications. The good news is that both parties favor the northeast. The bad news is that the northeast architecture schools are among the most competitive.</p>

<p>I’d also like to thank those who have sent me PMs. We’re packing up our son today (for his last year at Williams, boohoo!) and I’ll be able to focus on this better next week. </p>

<p>I’m actually not so worried about eventual earning power. I truly believe that income is not necessarily related to education – for better OR for worse. At this point, I’m trying to focus my son on getting into schools that are right for him. (Sound familiar?)</p>

<p>So, the first question is when to apply, this year or next? It seems that the post-graduate gap/work/intern year is becoming a normal experience among high energy kids. </p>

<p>My concern about MY kid is that he may lose momentum away from the structure of the academic environment. I think the deciding factors will be how confident he feels about taking the GRE now – and how important it is in admissions – and what he finds out about calculus and physics requirements. </p>

<p>IF he decides to apply this year, then the next question is where? He has a fairly clear picture of the ivy league and art school options but the personalities of the Big and Medium U’s are somewhat hazy. I went to UMich and know that that’s a great college town with a well respected architecture program, but otherwise don’t really know the difference between say Rice, Illinois, WUSTL. . . and many more fine universities.</p>

<p>In the undergraduate search, we visited. I don’t know really see that that’s going to be feasible in the next few months except in a very limited way so assembling the shortlist will be more of a dartboard approach. </p>

<p>Actually, this whole idea of applying this year came up rather unexpectedly – I had assumed that there would be a year or so of reflection in between undergrad and grad school. My husband and I just spent a week of delightfully quality time with our son and really talked through all of the options ahead of him. </p>

<p>Architecture, as I said, just keeps floating to the top. It seems to offer the ideal combination of intellectual challenge plus hands-on artistic process. He’s loved to design buildings for as long as he could hold a pencil and with his global exposure and art history education enjoys a rich mine of reference. </p>

<p>I guess the niggling concern is not whether architecture is the right choice but whether something else, like art history, would also be a right choice. He seems to be waiting for a sign from above to push him in one direction or the other. He’s had an expansive college experience and has taken full advantage of the profoundly good resources available to him, but as a multifaceted person with both intellectual and artistic depth has quite a range of choices. Too many, maybe.</p>

<p>Williams has wonderful counseling, an engaged and encouraging faculty and infinitely helpful alums, but no one but the student can actually make the decision of what to do next. Maybe I should start another thread on The Graduate, adrift in the swimming pool. There seem to be more parents of juniors and below on this board. Surely I don’t have the only rising senior who’s experiencing end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it angst.</p>

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<p>One of my best friends claims that the getting-out-of-school angst is higher than any other kid angst....</p>

<p>Feel free to PM me with any arch questions, momrath.</p>

<p>New York is still the center of 'High Design in Architecture'--as it was in 1980. If your son wants to work in a 'hot' or 'famous' office in metrocentric New York, the easiest way to get there is to be recognized as a design 'star' at Cornell, Cooper, Columbia, Yale, Princeton, Harvard, UPenn or the AA (London). For my money, it's hard to beat a BArch from Cornell or Cooper for design 'stardom'. Their BArch grads do very very well in design positions in New York offices.</p>

<p>Of course, it is possible to get hired into one of those offices if you have a degree from WashU or USC or UMich or UF. However, the majority of the talent is hired form the above-listed schools.</p>

<p>Having worked in a couple of those offices, I can confirm that it is the penultimate experience--far, far different from working in a well known office in the midwest, for example. For one thing, you will be surrounded by the cream of the crop peer talent. For another thing, conceptual design is revered and incorporated in New York. If you work in one of those offices, you learn how to incorporate that aspect of pure architecture into your own practice.</p>

<p>Plus, the 'names' of those offices travel the world. Currently, we are negotiating fees for a $33M tower for a client from Sydney. During the interview process, we absolutely pulled out the photos of the towers we worked on when we were in those offices. That experience STILL brings in MAJOR work, some 25 years on. I recommend it to any architecture student I know. I don't care what it takes, how long a kid has to wait around before he/she gets a proper job in New York--make it happen. It is worth it on every level.</p>

<p>AS architecture school is very unlike a liberal arts academic experience, I wouldn't worry about him losing his drive. He'll get that first creative assignment and his adrenelin will kick in.</p>

<p>Going in with a BA, I'd recommend sidling up to the top BArch/MArch talent to get that peer challenge, to make those vital peer contacts. Those guys will be going into better jobs than the BA grads. That is the reality. The BArch/MArch 'stars' will get the best jobs in the best offices. Find out who the 'stars' are. Figure out what is generating that 'star' busienss. Make sure the 'stars' know you and your work--and make sure they think your work is good. Ask their advice. </p>

<p>Lastly, if he is going to take a year off, I'd recommend he do a program or two to polish his CADskills, his 3D rendering/animation skills and his model making skills. Don't underestimate the power of the razzle dazzle. Quite a few 'stars' are made on the back of their razzle dazzle skills.</p>

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<p>"a multifaceted person with both intellectual and artistic depth"</p>

<p>That is exactly the essence of what brought my D to architecture as a possible field of study and career path when applying to undergraduate school and exploring all the possibilities. Architecture, she found, is an interdisciplinary field that combines her many facets. In fact, one of her college essays, wasn't really about architecture but about her "well roundedness" and all the sides of her and the things she balances in her life and she also tied in architecture within that as also balancing the intellectual and scientific thinking with the creative, artistic, romantic thinking, as well as history/cultures, etc. It kinda is who she is. The subject is like her. (she even tied in the Motorcycle Diaries on this point) It is turning out that architecture really does combine her various interests and skills. So, your son sounds a bit like that too. They are people of many passions and this field can combine several of them! </p>

<p>Sorry, I can't help you too much but I will find your son's journey interesting as my D is right behind him. I don't know if she plans to go straight to grad school or a year off. She is never home long enough to get too much into this, and also she is just starting junior year and so other than knowing she is going to go to grad school for a MArch, we haven't truthfully talked too far ahead but I guess this year, that will be. Lately she seems to be in this country and that country and well, just not home. I think you know what I mean. </p>

<p>I can't say if architecture is the "right choice" for your son (not sure there IS a right choice anyway) but his interests seem to dovetail. But another thing is if he can do anything to really try it out, that helps. That's how my D decided for sure. She did the Career Discover program for six weeks LAST summer at Harvard Graduate School of Design, financing most of it herself, and it was very intense but she loved it. She did do an internship the summer before senior year in HS with a local architect who gave her real architectural tasks to do, not busy work. And she has taken some courses at RISD, including one where she did the architectural drawiings on various digital/computer programs. Now she is going to do this architecture program in Florence through Syracuse this fall. These things have been enough "sampling" to know that she really does like it. I was thinking maybe she should do an internship next summer in architecture but she hasn't talked too much about it (again, she is never home) and while I think she has considered that, she has this notion that she has mentioned for next summer of building homes in third world countries because she thinks it would be cool (she loves to travel) and she thinks as an architectural student, she'd learn a lot by building some houses. She mentioned that when home for three days this week, though said she thought you had to pay to do that and well, we surely can't pay for that. I'm all for volunteer work but can't pay to do it. :D. I think she'd be into doing that half a summer and doing an internship half a summer but who knows if that is possible. Though the past two summers, she jammed in SO much, anything is possible. She has had some fun summer experiences and I was thinking maybe it is time to do an internship her last summer in college? But I guess also there is only one time in your life you can have extended adventures like she has been dreaming up and doing. I guess one can do an internship after graduation too. Dunno, am typing out loud!</p>

<p>She has kept abreast of any required courses for various MArch programs. She hasn't exactly begun any searches but is aware of some schools because other kids from her school have gotten into these programs and also she was exposed to some at Harvard's Career Discovery Program. Even some undergrad schools she had applied to have MArch programs. I just can't start thinking about it. It feels like she JUST got into college! I know you are a year ahead of us on this one. I'll learn the ropes from you! :D</p>

<p>PS, my daughter spent her 20th birthday six days ago in NYC with her sister (older D is only home in the states for nine days and has been traveling all over most of the time she is here!) and I peeked at this card younger D wrote her and in the long message, it mentions how she wants her older sister to go to grad school at Columbia (as if she could if she just wants to, lol) because she lives and goes to school in NYC and so maybe they discussed it! Nobody did with me though.</p>

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<p>I wouldn't worry too much about losing momentum. I took a year off before college and before grad school and felt like I entered more energized. The M.Arch program at Columbia when I was there had quite a few people who were coming from other professions as well. Chhers is right that there is a certain art to peer contacts and getting noticed by the famous architects who either teach at the schools or come for critiques. I wasn't too good at the political part of getting noticed at architecture school until the last year. If I'd chosen to stay in NY when I graduated though, I think I would have had a decent chance at a somwhat more high powered career. Spending five years working in Munich also got me off the fast track a bit. (Though it did get me an interview at Richard Meier's Office - only I was pretty frank that with a toddler at home I wasn't really interested in 60+ hour weeks - and they didn't offer me a job.) OTOH as a Mom, having a low key solo practice has served me well. </p>

<p>BTW if you ever get a chance to see Oren Safdie's (son of Moshe Safdie who design Habitat for the Montreal Expo67) play Private Jokes, Public Places - it's a pretty good example of the nightmare critique. I couldn't stop laughing.</p>

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<p>Just catching up on back reading. Thanks again for all the in-put. At this point I think my son needs to focus primarily on the application process – the selection of schools, the GRE, the recommendations and the portfolio.</p>

<p>It probably would have been helpful to have had an architecture internship under his belt, but as it turned out the museum opportunities were overwhelmingly appealing. </p>

<p>He did attend one of those summer “So you think you want to be an architect?” programs as Soozie’s daughter did at Harvard (his was at Columbia) and his reaction to the work and atmosphere was very positive. Intensive yes, but also intellectually stimulating and creatively fulfilling.</p>

<p>It also would have been helpful to take calculus prior to senior year (take note, humanities driven architecture hopefuls!) but it seems that can be accomplished as well. </p>

<p>So, we’ll see where this leads. . .</p>

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<p>"It also would have been helpful to take calculus prior to senior year (take note, humanities driven architecture hopefuls!) but it seems that can be accomplished as well."</p>

<p>I liked math and it still took me a while to find a year it was convenient to fit in my schedule. I also needed a year of Lab Physics which I took as a senior. That might actually have been a good thing as my mid year grade was an A, but it dropped to a B by second semester!</p>

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<p>Hi mathmom, you seem to be pretty knowledgeable about this subject, so I hope you don’t mind if I have a few questions for you:</p>

<p>When you say “B or better in Calculus and lab Physics”, do you mean that B is the minimum or that a B or better is preferred?</p>

<p>Since it’s so hard to find stats on this stuff, what would you say were the median GPA and GRE scores for Harvard (since you said you attended it), Columbia (since you said you worked on the admissions committee), and top MArch I programs in general?</p>

<p>When looking at portfolios, what were the main factors you took into account? Did you ever take into account versatility? If someone included (in conjunction with drawings/paintings) mediums that didn’t seem directly relevant to architecture (e.g. music, photography, etc.) but that may have demonstrated certain skills that might be useful nonetheless, did you factor that in?</p>

<p>I’ve heard the “10-12 works” thing being tossed around a lot for the max number of works to include in the portfolio. How stringent are they about this? Is it okay if I include, say, 20 works, as long as each demonstrates something new about one’s skillset? Or do they tend to get ****ed off / annoyed with more than 10-12?</p>

<p>Do top MArch I programs virtually require some prior architecture experience (whether as an internship or in classes) to have a good chance of getting in, or are they perfectly fine with works of buildings in the portfolio and an expression of interest?</p>

<p>Cheers.</p>

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<p>Haven’t checked this folder in a while. My experience on the admissions committee was 25 years ago, I have no idea how much is still applicable and I don’t remember that much. </p>

<p>So my recollection. We’d run down the transcript and see what grades were there. C’s catch your eye, and you look to see what they are in. If it’s something completely unrelated (for example a language course) you could dismiss it if there weren’t too many, but a C in math or physics would definitely count against you. An A is always better than a B, but we didn’t formally assign points for each part of the application. You gave an overall number based on your overall feeling for the candidate</p>

<p>I have no idea what the GRE or GPA numbers were. My recollection is that most applicants had GREs lower than mine (which were in the mid 700s except for the logic section which was a high 600.) My GPA was exactly half way between a B+ and an A-. </p>

<p>Versatility was neither a plus nor a minus. We were happy to see photography. Music would be hard to judge. One candidate had a portfolio that was mostly photos of dances she had choreographed, I don’t think we accepted her. If the guidelines are 10-12 I would NOT hand in 20 - time is limited. </p>

<p>My understanding is that MArch 1 programs don’t expect experience. They certainly didn’t in our day. It’s very hard to get an architecture internship if you haven’t learned any of the skills that would be useful to an architect.</p>

<p>I do think there should be some reason to believe that architecture is a real interest, but that doesn’t mean you have to take courses or have work experience. I gave tours of the National Cathedral one summer for example.</p>

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<p>It takes me 5 seconds to look over and accurately assess a piece. With 8 more pieces than 12, that’s only 40 extra seconds! Did you guys look over each piece for 20 minutes or something?!</p>