Master's in Philosophy, or second undergrad in Physics?

Student Lounge College Life
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<p>I'll try to keep this straightforward -- I'm currently a third-year (just started third year) student majoring in Philosophy. I had previously planned on getting into Law School after graduation (I live in Canada, so the lawyer market isn't as saturated). I was very naive when I started uni, you see. Problem is, now I'm not so sure if I'll even get in, and so I've decided on creating a back-up plan just in case I don't. (Because I really don't know how in the world I'll find a decent job with my sole Philosophy B.A. degree, and I don't have any connections or internships yet either.)</p>

<p>So, would it be a better idea to try to enroll into a Philosophy M.A. graduate school program, or should I start a second, more attractive major (I'm thinking Physics)?</p>

<p>I've always loved the sciences, and especially Physics, but the main thing that held me back from enrolling into a university Physics program was my wavering math skills back in high school, where my math teachers happened to be quite terrible at teaching and where there were no textbooks offered to the class either, so I couldn't learn, for example, Advanced Functions on my own. However, I did very well on all the science courses I took.</p>

<p>If I do go this route, I will have to take a bridging math course before I enroll into the Physics Major program here at my uni, to satisfy the prerequisite requirement and to also give me some background in mathematics.
Also, I can only start this program possibly, at the earliest, September of next year, because I've already signed up for and registered for all my courses this year, and cannot change them.</p>

<p>Please note I am not abandoning my Philosophy major and planning to start from scratch with a Physics major -- I merely intend to tack it on as a new double-major, starting next year.</p>

<p>So what do you folks think? Will it be more attractive to employers if I did a second undergraduate degree in Physics (obviously I'll have to stay longer in uni since I'll start on it so late), or should I take my chances with grad school (i.e. a Master's degree) in Philosophy instead?
Is starting a new double major now a bad idea, financially-speaking?</p>

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<p>I’d say your job prospects would look a little better with a physics major, but it won’t be THAT much better unless you definitely finish a PhD in Physics. And getting into Physics PhD programs are no joke. They’re extremely competitive. So don’t carry any new naivete into going into this field simply because you like physics. I would not make any judgments about becoming a physics major either until you go through the classes. I’ve been wanting to become a physics major and have taken all of the lower-divison classes for it, but I am not going to go that route. I came in with a huge desire to do physics when I first started college and thought my first physics class was so boring I fell asleep. </p>

<p>I don’t know what it’s like in Canada, but I was going to double major this year in Physics and I was told I was not allowed to because no one was allowed to declare double majors anymore at my school. I would say though that I would be here instead of just two more years I would probably be here for three and possibly four (maxing out my schedule each quarter too!). </p>

<p>I would say HS math is not sufficient. I was using Differential Geometry, Linear Algebra, Calculus III, Differential Equations, and other more advanced topics in my Modern Physics class…a class for sophomores. I know they have these classes called “College Physics” which are algebra-based but they are not relevant to a physics major. You should be ready to jump into your first physics class with Calculus I.</p>

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<p>Have you not taken any math classes since high school? How far did you get into math in high school?</p>

<p>The thing that would look best to employers is being good at whatever you do. Neither physics nor philosophy have jobs as natural extensions the same way as engineering or business do. Being bad at physics doesn’t add anything, and neither does being bad in a philosophy masters program. Do what you think you will be best at.</p>

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<p>I wouldn’t say major in what you’ll do the best in. Major in what you love and will work the HARDEST in. </p>

<p>I’m great at a few subjects and have a natural talent for them, but they’re not going to get me the kind of job I want and aren’t going to make me happy if I pursue any of them. I’d rather have a challenge and fun going through everything and feeling like I earned my degree rather than just going through until I got one on natural talent. </p>

<p>Obviously if you are failing hard do not continue to pursue. But if you are struggling and learning, getting better, and have developed a real passion for it, by all means go for it.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the advice so far, folks.</p>

<p>@Vladenschlutte: The problem is that even if I do well in my Philosophy courses (which I am), employers don’t really care that much. They would only look at the major, not so much the grades. Liberal Arts majors are a dime a dozen; it’s the STEM majors that bring a little more respect, regardless of whether they are vocational (e.g. engineering and business) or not (e.g. pure math and natural sciences).</p>

<p>@CalDud: Thanks for sharing your experience. Yes, I’m not going to be naive about entering Physics; I know I will probably have to get used to working my butt off and pulling all-nighters all the time, especially since I would say I’m not naturally a “math person”. And thanks for pointing out that it would be wise of me to take all the requisite math courses like Calculus I & II before I try my first first-year Physics course. I guess I should only declare a Physics major IF I succeed in those basic courses first.</p>

<p>Oh and what did you mean by “HS math is not sufficient”? I was intimidated from what you said about how, by the sophomore year in physics courses, all sorts of math knowledge is required. The requirements for applying to the Physics program at my school are Grade 12 Advanced Functions and Grade 12 Calculus. I was thinking, if high school students have only taken these courses and yet they are enrolled into the Physics program no problem, I should be able to enroll into and succeed in Physics once I take (and assuming I pass) the bridging math courses offered at my university, because that’s enough of a mathematical background that I need to start first-year Physics.</p>

<p>What you said about needing to have knowledge of a whole bunch of math (differential geometry, linear algebra, calculus III, etc…) at the start of the second year – I’m assuming that all of this advanced math will be taught in first-year required math courses? (Because I don’t know how else students would be taught this extra math if the only requirements for enrolling into the Physics program straight from high school are Grade 12 Advanced Functions and Calculus.)</p>

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<p>I don’t know how it is done in Canada, but this is how it is in the United States.</p>

<p>There are two tracks: there’s algebra-based physics and there’s calculus-based physics. Physics majors do not normally take the algebra-based version. I’m not sure exactly who it is meant for. Probably some pre-professional thing. It is kind of a waste of time because it is the exact same thing over again in the first calculus-based physics course. There’s not even that much calculus really used in the first course and you can also take Calculus I and Physics I (calculus-based) at the same time here. There are typically three courses in your first introductory calculus-based physics sequence. There’s Mechanics, Electricity & Magnetism, and then Modern Physics. </p>

<p>A good knowledge of Physics I is MORE than sufficient to get through Physics II. However, it is the conceptual part of Physics II where the challenge comes in for some people. You kind of have to know what you’re doing and the rest is easy from there. We did touch on special and general relativity at the end, but it is mostly just about electricity & magnetism. Physics III (Modern Physics) I think will vary as you go. Physics I and II for me were freshman courses. Physics III was a sophomore course.</p>

<p>For Physics III, this is what we covered (in general):</p>

<ol>
<li>Kinetic Theory</li>
<li>Entropy and the second law of thermodynamics</li>
<li>Sound waves</li>
<li>Spectra and diffraction</li>
<li>Relativistic mechanics</li>
<li>General relativity mechanics</li>
<li>General relativity dynamics</li>
<li>Stern-Gerlach experiment and spin</li>
<li>Quantum Electrodynamics</li>
<li>Electroweak reactions</li>
<li>Flavor Theory</li>
<li>Color Theory</li>
<li>Super-symmetry and strings</li>
<li>Cosmology</li>
</ol>

<p>Differential Geometry (enough to understand) was taught to us in-class. It is generally a junior course. May or may not be part of your course. We spent a lot of time “proving” things. There was a lot of linear algebra and differential equations involved.</p>

<p>Calculus I - Freshman
Calculus II - Freshman
Calculus III - Sophomore
Differential Equations - Sophomore
Linear Algebra - Sophomore</p>

<p>If you can handle it, people sometimes take Diffy Q and Linear Algebra in the same semester. For us, it was a game of politics that people be able to take Physics III without having any prerequisite knowledge of these mathematics classes. The administration felt that the teachers were “holding students back” from progressing but in all honesty those people who complained that they had never gone through linear algebra before wasted so much time in class asking questions because they didn’t understand. Someone walked out of the room during our first exam upset that we couldn’t use a calculator, even. I really don’t know the rigor of the courses where you are, but it could be extremely hard or medium or easy. I am not sure, it’s just what I took before I took the class. </p>

<p>There is a mathematical physics course that bridges you from lower-division classes (freshman & sophomore) to upper-divison (junior & senior). That will help you in your later courses, but that’s after you’ve taken those three in the physics sequence. That’s at least how it is here. It may be different. If there is such a class for freshman, maybe you should take it? I don’t really know what that all entails.</p>

<p>Honestly, it really comes down to how strong you are at algebra. That can make all the difference in your first Calculus & Physics class. I came in very strong at algebra and they were very easy for me. You have to have some “math muscles” in a sense. You must be strong at algebra to succeed in Calculus. There’s too much stuff you have to do with it. You’ll need to have taken trigonometry as well to do good in physics. If you are disciplined enough to become very good at algebra, odds are you will do well in Calculus and calculus-based physics. </p>

<p>To get up your skills in algebra, you can use a website called khanacademy.org to review.
There are plenty of good physics places to learn from. For one, you can look at MIT’s OpenCourseWare and watch the lectures on there. Yale even has OpenCourseWare on Physics I and II. Institutions such as UCLA covers Calculus I and II (I think) on YouTube and UC Berkeley covers Calculus III. Of course, MIT covers all of these as well plus Differential Equations & Linear Algebra. Trust me, if you have a teacher you don’t understand, these online resources are your friend. </p>

<p>Here also though you need to complete the two freshman chemistry classes for the physics program, so if you’re afraid of chemistry I would suggest you get over it. There’s always some kind of chemistry involved in physics one way or another (bur nothing scary). </p>

<p>I wouldn’t necessarily say pull all-nighters, haha. With good study habits, you probably don’t have to. Any all-nighters I pulled were solely due to lack of preparation and procrastination. So, as long as you study during the day and make a habit of it, you shouldn’t need to be up all night. But maybe you’re a night owl and work best during that time. But yeah, if the going gets tough and it eventually will for most people, study study study.</p>

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<p>I’m impressed by people that major in physics because the major is so damn hard in my view. When you start taking 400 levels like nonlinear dynamics, quantum I & II, and Relativity, it becomes so un-intuitive.</p>

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<p>Apologies for getting back so late; was busy for the past week or so and temporarily put this on the backburner.</p>

<p>@CalDud: Thanks a bunch for all the details on the US Physics programs. I’ve checked in with an academic advisor, and the undergraduate Physics programs here in Canada are A LOT different than the US counterpart, apparently. The only requirement for applying and enrolling into a Physics Major program at any large university here in Canada, is Grade 12 Advanced Functions and Calculus.
However, I did not take those high school courses back then, so will have to make plans to take them at night school before I can start my first undergraduate Physics and Calculus courses.</p>

<p>So, to divert a little from my topic here, and just to make sure, the general consensus on this thread is that a Bachelor’s degree in Physics is actually better and more marketable than a Master’s degree in Philosophy?</p>

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<p>More marketable than a philosophy degree, yes. BUT BE WARNED: to do well with a physics degree usually requires graduate school and Ph.D. Finding a job with a B.S. in physics degree is not easy. Finding a job with a B.S. in Electrical Engineering, which by all intents and purposes is electromagnetic physics, is significantly easier.</p>

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<p>I’m aware that Engineering programs are in general more secure in post-graduate job placements than, say, Physics or Math, but unfortunately I don’t think enrolling into the Engineering department is one of my viable choices.
Here in Canada, mathematics and the sciences (physics, chem, bio) are part of the larger Arts & Sciences department, meaning all I have to do if I want to add a Physics major is to declare a double major in it (once I successfully complete the high school prereqs), because I’m already enrolled as an Arts & Science student. In contrast, to enroll into an Engineering program I’d have to apply from scratch to the Engineering department, because they’re a separate school from the Arts & Sciences department.</p>

<p>Anyhow, my main motive for wanting to add a double-major in Physics is not solely due to income potential – it is mainly because I’ve always had a love of Physics, but the string of bad high school math teachers I had back then ruined the possibility of applying to Physics when I first enrolled into university. I am now trying to change that by trying to take up what I’ve always wanted to do (and hopefully doing well in Gr.12 Calculus and Functions, which I screwed up on when I was an immature teenager back then). </p>

<p>I must remark, however, that it’s sad that even a Master’s degree in Philosophy is seen as less than a BA in any STEM field – I don’t think many people know what academic Philosophy really entails, and that one can indeed specialize in a rigorous and “technical” area of Philosophy like Formal Logic, which I’m concentrating in. It’s no walk in the park, and is definitely more aligned with Math and Computer Science than the regular Humanities, but employers don’t seem to know that and just think of all of Philosophy as one and the same, even when it’s a very broad field with many branches.</p>

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<p>You’re looking at this in the wrong way. The job market isn’t a competition designed to reward people for pursuing the most rigorous or challenging field of study.</p>

<p>Why aren’t you talking about studying computer science? Your philosophy background sounds like a good match for CS and the prospects are good.</p>