<p>I was wondering if it is really worth it to get a masters in the engineering field. I will be starting my freshman year at the University of Michigan studying mechanical engineering and was wondering how much difference there is in both the job you can get / pay you will receive if you stay that extra year or two in college to get your masters degree? Or is it better to take your bachelors degree and go into the workforce for a couple of years and then go back to get your masters?</p>
<p>Are you talking about a Masters of Science in an engineering field resulting in a M.S. or a Masters of Engineering in an engineering field resulting in a M.Eng because it does make a difference. A M.S basically says you have some competency in research in engineering sciences but due to the numbers of people who want jobs in this area a M.S. is a worthless degree because industry will just pick off the people with a Ph.D. There's just not enough jobs to go around. A M.Eng says you have an increased competency in technical skills and design. Industry typically will treat an M.Eng as an equivalent of two years of work experience and adjust your pay accordingly. On average this works out to be $10,000 a year but that number varies quite a bit depending on the field and the location.</p>
<p>My best advice for you is to go to a job search engine and compare the jobs requirements and pay scales. You'll learn more from doing that then you can get from here. In the end pick your classes wisely because that says more about what you can do then your degree.</p>
<p>Interesting... That's not how it is at all in civil engineering. Basically, it's just that the programs differ from university to university. An MEng program is generally only a year or so long, and student learns more practically-based information and an MS student takes about two to three years and learns more theory. Not all MS students do research, either. Yes, the bulk of firms value the things that an MEng student learns, but they also value knowing all of the theory behind what you're doing. Nobody's going to turn down an MS candidate from, say, Urbana-Champaign or Berkeley because they consider it a worthless degree. In general, an MS and an MEng are equivalent given equivalent engineering departments, but with an MEng, you don't have the option of pursuing a PhD.</p>
<p>interesting... was not aware there were two different type of master degree programs for engineering. So basically the masters of science in mechanical engineering is more for research while a masters of engineening in mechanical engineering is more for practical use in industry? Is your advance then to go into these programs right after college if I was interested? Or should I wait for some real world experience before I enroll in these programs? Also, what would be the better program If I wanted to move into Upper level management and get an MBA?</p>
<p>Upper level mgmt--> MBA is a good plan.</p>
<p>When it comes time for grad school, though, I'd talk to my undergraduate advisor and any other professors that I was close with and ask them to counsel you on recommendations. They're the ones who know you personally and academically, and they're also the most familiar with how alumni of your undergrad university fare at various programs. They also likely have close friends and colleagues at other programs and can give you more of a tailored 'inside scoop'.</p>
<p>It is generally true that the M.Eng is a terminal degree, but it certainly is possible at some schools to get a doctoral degree after the M.Eng pathway. For example, at Berkeley one can be awarded a "Doctor of Engineering" (D.Eng) degree, which is equivalent to the Ph.D, in Electrical Engineering.</p>
<p>If your goal is to advance your career in industry and you aren't interested in research, you should go for the Master of Engineering (M.Eng.), which substitutes a project for the thesis.</p>
<p>An MEng on the east coast is exactly the same as a MS on the west coast. e.g., a terminal masters degree. For example, stanford, ucla, ucb, gatech all award MS degrees as terminal degrees for the most part, at least in Comp Sci (you can't go directly in phd program).</p>
<p>On the east coast, this is the same as an Meng at Cornell, Princeton, MIT etc.....same courses, same units etc.</p>
<p>Thus a stanford MS degree = MEng degree (in CS), and vice versa.</p>
<p>Generally speaking, Masters degrees come in two forms</p>
<p>Terminal : no direct path into phd.</p>
<p>Non-Terminal : You actually get admited into the phd program, but get a masters "along" the way"</p>
<p>Meng is a terminal masters degree. An MS is most likely also terminal, but in a few cases may be MS-Phd....anyways, that person will end up with a PhD, so he'll never say he's a Masters student.</p>
<p>Midnightrun, congratulations on Michigan. You are in for a great time. Drop by the Michigan forum some time. It is a great place to meet fellow Wolverines. </p>
<p>As for going straight for a MS degree as opposed to working first, why not wait and play it by ear? Who knows what you will be up to in 3 years. You may decide to stick around for another year and get a MS or you may decide to go straight to work. A Mechanical Engineer from Michigan is going to have many options, so take your time and have fun figuring things out.</p>
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A M.S basically says you have some competency in research in engineering sciences but due to the numbers of people who want jobs in this area a M.S. is a worthless degree because industry will just pick off the people with a Ph.D. There's just not enough jobs to go around. A M.Eng says you have an increased competency in technical skills and design. Industry typically will treat an M.Eng as an equivalent of two years of work experience and adjust your pay accordingly. On average this works out to be $10,000 a year but that number varies quite a bit depending on the field and the location.
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<p>Oh, I don't know about that. I think that's very program-specific, and it's difficult to generalize. Take EECS at MIT, for example. In that department, the MEng degree is basically an option available to the better MIT EECS undergrads, where they can spend another year after their bachelor's and get their MEng. Nobody else other than MIT undergrads are allowed to get the EECS MEng. Hence, the MEng basically functions as a quasi-"Honors" EECS undergrad program. In that year of the MEng, you take advanced coursework and you write a research thesis. The EECS SM degree (yeah, MIT calls the Master of Science degree an "SM" degree) is a more extensive degree program that generally takes 2 years and also culminates in a thesis. Strangely enough, MIT EECS undergrads are not eligible for the SM EECS program. The SM program is open to undergrads from any school (including MIT, as long as they weren't EECS undergrads), whereas the MEng program is only availabe to MIT EECSundergrads. </p>
<p>In generally, the MIT SM EECS degree is considered to be a more extensive and more valuable degree than the MIT MEng EECS degree. I have heard plenty of MIT MEng students refer to their programs as not being 'true' master's degree programs (although getting an MEng is obviously a whole lot better than just getting a bachelor's). It certainly isn't 'worthless' by any means to have an SM EECS MIT degree. And as you can see from the data, at MIT, SM EECS students tend to earn more than EECS MEng students. (Group the data by course number then by degree to view the data).</p>
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So basically the masters of science in mechanical engineering is more for research while a masters of engineening in mechanical engineering is more for practical use in industry?
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<p>Again, I think that is varies from program to program. </p>
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An MEng on the east coast is exactly the same as a MS on the west coast. e.g., a terminal masters degree. For example, stanford, ucla, ucb, gatech all award MS degrees as terminal degrees for the most part, at least in Comp Sci (you can't go directly in phd program).</p>
<p>On the east coast, this is the same as an Meng at Cornell, Princeton, MIT etc.....same courses, same units etc.
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<p>So then what about the SM from MIT (not the MEng, but the SM)? </p>
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Also, what would be the better program If I wanted to move into Upper level management and get an MBA?...Upper level mgmt--> MBA is a good plan.
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<p>Or, if you want to cover your bases, how about getting an MBA and a Master's of Science in Engineering at the same time? Perhaps the best such program is the LFM program at MIT, where you can get both an MBA from the Sloan School and an SM in any engineering discipline you want except nuclear engineering. </p>
<p><a href="http://lfmsdm.mit.edu/lfm/academic.html%5B/url%5D">http://lfmsdm.mit.edu/lfm/academic.html</a></p>
<p>Other similar highly respected programs include the MMM program at Northwestern (get an MBA from Kellogg and a Master's in Engineering Management from the Northwestern McCormick School of Engineering), and the TMI program at Michigan (MBA from the Ross School, MSE in one of various Michigan engineering programs.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.mmm.northwestern.edu/%5B/url%5D">http://www.mmm.northwestern.edu/</a>
<a href="http://www.tmi.umich.edu/d3.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.tmi.umich.edu/d3.htm</a></p>
<p>Other schools have adhoc MBA/MS programs, but what makes the 3 above programs special is that they can be completed in the standard MBA timeframe, or maybe with an extra half-year. So you don't have to be spending a whole lot of extra time in school to get another master's degree.</p>
<p>Thanks for posting that information up sakky. </p>
<p>Do these combined programs (MBA/MS/MEng) usually offer any kind of financial aid besides loans such as grants, tuition-waivers, or scholarships? What does it take to get those?</p>
<p>thanks for your help sakky. I was not aware that those dual degree programs existed. Would it be better to gain a few years experience in the work force before going into these programs or are they something that you do right out of school?</p>
<p>MIT LFM requires that you have at least 2 years of work experience. This is actually quite unusual because very few MBA programs actually outright require X years of work experience. They strongly weight work experience for admissions decisions, but they rarely outright require work experience. For example, it is technically possible to get into an elite MBA program with zero work experience (although it is extremely difficult). Every year, a small handful of people get into places like Harvard Business School, Stanford, Sloan, etc. with no work experience. However, LFM specifically states that you must have at least 2 years of work experience. Almost every LFM student has substantially more. Generally, the average age of LFM matriculants is 28.</p>
<p>I don't know what the rules are for Kellogg MMM or Michigan TMI as far as work experience goes. But in general, it is extremely difficult to get into any elite MBA program without any work experience. Hey, if you can get admitted without any work experience, then more power to you. I wouldn't hold my breath, though.</p>
<p>I would also point out another highly interesting aspect of the LFM program that sets it apart from TMI or MMM. In LFM, you can choose any engineering discipline you like (except nuclear) to get your SM in. That's right - any one that you like. Furthermore, you can switch your engineering discipline around, and as long as you get decent grades in your new discipline, you will be awarded the SM degree. Think about what that means. I know one guy whose undergrad degree is in mechanical engineering, but ended up working in the software industry so he really wanted to get an Master's in EECS. He knew he had no chance of getting admitted into a decent graduate EECS program anywhere because he has no formal academic background in EECS (he has a professional background in software, but not an academic background). So what he did was got admitted into LFM, and then chose EECS for his engineering discipline. He did just fine in his EECS classes. So basically, through LFM, he 'backdoored' his way into getting a Master's degree from what is arguably the finest EECS school in the world. And I use the word 'backdoor' in the nicest possible context, because it is perfectly legitimate for LFM students to choose whatever engineering program they think they can handle and as long as they do decently in the classes. So if you've ever wanted to get an SM in EECS, ChemE, MechE, etc. from MIT, but you didn't think you could get admitted, well, here's one possible way to do it. </p>
<p>{Incidentally, this is not something specific only to LFM. It's fairly well understood that as far as the MIT graduate programs are concerned, it's far far easier to do an intracampus transfer than to try to get admitted from the outside. In other words, it's often times easier to get admitted into program A at MIT and then transfer to program B, then it is to get admitted to program B as an outside applicant. It also means that you can often times just add on more and more degrees. For example, there was one guy who got admitted into an MIT PhD Economics program, and not only managed to complete his PhD, but also managed to pick up an SM in Operations Research and an SM in Mathematics along the way, without having to gain formal admission to either program. Basically, the attitude of MIT is that if you are able to complete all the work, then there's no reason to deny you the degree.} </p>
<p>As far as financial aid goes, that's very funny that you would ask that. LFM has basically historically offered full "free tuition rides" to all its students. It doesn't anymore, but it still does offer highly subsidized tuition. That's why LFM students would say in the old days "Why go to another MBA program and pay full price when you can come to LFM and get 2 degrees for free?"</p>
<p>However, I would interpret that very cautiously, because it's not that simple. First of all, regular MBA programs are basically 18 months long (they are September to June of the first year, then September to June of the second year, for a total of 18 months). LFM truly is 2 years long - it runs from June of the first year and goes 24 months straight. What that means is that, compared to regular MBA students, you lose 2 summers. Those are summers in which you could be making money. So you have to factor that in. </p>
<p>Secondly, and I think far far more importantly, LFM is somewhat restrictive in terms of career options. You have to think about what the goals of the students at elite MBA schools are. The Sloan School of Management is one of the best B-schools in the world, and LFM is sometimes thought of as an 'honors' program of Sloan. Many, perhaps most, LFM students could have gone to other elite MBA schools like HBS, Stanford, Wharton, etc. A lot of students at those schools (and a lot of non-LFM Sloan students) are gunning for high-flying careers in management consulting, investment banking, etc. Often times, that's why they're going to B-school.</p>
<p>LFM students, on the other hand, have their entire program structured around manufacturing and operations. The 'M' in LFM stands for Manufacturing. So they don't really have the flexibility to pursue future careers in banking or consulting the way that regular Sloan MBA students (or students from HBS, Stanford, etc.) do. They don't really have the time to attend all the Ibanking or MC lunches or after-hours get-togethers, etc., because they're always being pulled away by their engineering coursework or for required LFM meetings. </p>
<p>Even more importantly, LFM students are required to attend a 6-month unpaid internship (from June-December of the 2nd year) with a designated manufacturing company. That's right, not only is it unpaid, but, far more importantly, it means that you can't use that time to do anything else. What a lot of regular MBA students do is use that summer to intern in an industry they want to join. For example, those who want to do banking will go intern at a bank. Those who want to do consulting will go intern for a consultancy. If they do well at that summer internship, then they will likely be given a permanent job offer from that company. Even if they don't get that job offer, then they can still put that summer internship on their resume which they can then try to parlay into a job offer with some other company. Let's face it. It looks good to have "Goldman Sachs" or "McKinsey" on your resume. </p>
<p>Furthermore, like I said, the LFM internship is 6 months long, so it extends through the fall of the 2nd year. However, it is precisely during that time when recruiting for post-graduation jobs is at its most fevered pitch, especially for consulting and banking, but also for other very big-name companies like Microsoft. So all these big-time companies come for fall recruiting, and it's hard for you to participate because you're still on your LFM internship. Yes, you can take some days off and fly back to Cambridge if you see a company you really want to interview with, but the point is, it's far easier for normal MBA students than for LFM students. </p>
<p>You have to understand what LFM can and cannot offer you. LFM is extremely powerful if you are interested in a management career in manufacturing, operations, engineeering/technology management, supply chain/logistics, information technology, etc. If that's what you want to do, then in my opinion LFM is clearly the best program in the world. But if know you want to be a management consultant or (especially) a Wall Street banker, then LFM is probably not so good. In fact, you'd probably be better off just being a regular Sloan MBA student. Don't get me wrong - some LFM students do indeed end up in consulting and banking, but it's a very hard road. It's easier to do that if you're a regular Sloan student. </p>
<p>The takehome point is this. The LFM tuition subsidy may seem great. But if you'e gunning for a career as a consultant or a banker, then in the grand scheme of things, the subsidy is not that important. The subsidy may look good because it will keep you from taking on a lot of debt. But keep in mind that consulting companies and banks generally give tuition reimbursement and large signing bonuses as part of their offer, so you're going to be able to wipe out a lot of that debt anyway. You should carefully choose an MBA program because it will help your career, not just because of a subsidy.</p>
<p>Wow sakky, you are truly a nexus of information. </p>
<p>I was just curious about how many loans I would need to take out for grad school; the subsidy was definately not a deciding factor. </p>
<p>What about the separate Master of Engineering and MBA programs? Any financial aid (besides loans) offered for those, and what does it take to get them? The reason why I ask is because at my school (Rice), only M.S. and Ph.D students are subsidized. THey explicitly state that MEng student receive zero financial aid. </p>
<p>I also looked up the LFM program, and exactly 18% of them pursue management/consulting. It seems plausible since you are still awarded an MBA after all. It seems as though a lot of engineers go this route. Is it because of the money, or are there other benefits to banking as well? I actually think that that seems like a waste of an engineering degree.</p>
<p>In general, MBA students are not subsidized. However, because of the strong earning potential of the MBA, especially an elite one, this is usually not an overriding concern. You should be able to pull yourself out of debt fairly quickly post-MBA.</p>
<p>However, you are making a correct general observation in that you have to very carefully weigh whether any of these degrees are truly worth it for you financially. The fact is, you don't really 'need' an MBA or an MS or an MEng to be highly successful in business. So in general, you are well-advised to carefully consider whether it truly benefits you to take time off of work to pursue any of these degrees. Part-time programs may well work out better for you. There are plenty of elite part-time MBA programs run by schools like Kellogg, Chicago, Berkeley, Columbia, and others. If your employer is willing to offer you tuition-reimbursement for part-time education, this may well be the most financially advantageous path for you to take. I know there are elite part-time MS engineering programs, run by Stanford and other schools. Again, if you can take advantage of an employer tuition-reimbursement program, that might work out very well for you. </p>
<p>Yes, a good chunk of each LFM class goes to MC/IB every year. However, compare that to the percentage of the regular MIT-Sloan class that go to MC/IB, and you will see that LFM students tend not to go to MC/IB as much as regular Sloanies do. (And personally, I think that categories like investment management, diversified financial services, and venture capital/private equity should also be included under the IB rubric, broadly defined). </p>
<p>As far as banking is concerned, a lot of people are in it for the money. There's also a strong element of prestige involved in banking (because you are getting a job that a lot of people want), and also there is an element of 'now or never'. People know that banks generally only recruit fresh-MBA's, so if they turn down a banking offer right after graduation, they will probably have no chance of ever getting into banking ever again. It's fairly easy to move from banking to, say, manufacturing. It's practically impossible to do the reverse. </p>
<p>Is it a waste of an engineering degree? I suppose you could look at it that way. However, you could also look at the engineering degree as "career-insurance" - you know that if you don't get a consulting or banking offer (and many people try to get such offers and don't get anything), you can always fall back on a job in manufacturing or technology.</p>
<p>what about going through an integrated bs/ms program? it's an extra year [or less, depending on how many elective spots you fill with engineering classes] and you get the two degrees...</p>
<p>i'll only be a freshman next year , but i figured i might as well ask when we're on this topic. :)</p>
<p>Why do banks only recruit fresh MBAs? More experience is better, isn't it?</p>
<p>That was a great link sakky, a lot of information on there. </p>
<p>I am also wondering the same thing as karthikkito. My school also offers a MEng with one more year beyond the bachelor. Would I be better off getting this and going to work (in engineering) or just going striaght to work after my bachelor's degree and then doing one of those MS/MBA programs? </p>
<p>The second route allows a possible tuition subsidy (so does the first). But the first option will open the possibility of getting an MBA in the future without being tied down to a possibly career path. (My goal is to at least finish a master in a technical field).</p>
<p>Another question is would a MEng help someone get into a top MBA program in the future? Or would it help someone get a better job than just having a B.S., helping get into a top MBA program from having the better job title?</p>
<p>To karthikkito, we didn't talk about your suggestion yet, but yes, I agree that a combined BS/MS (or, at some schools, a BS/MEng) degree is another powerful way to boost your career, especially if you can either complete both degrees in 4 years, or if that 5th year (that MS) year can be paid off through a TA-ship or TA-ship. I didn't really talk about thise option because the fact is, not every school out there offers a BS/MS or BS/MEng option, but if your school does, you should seriously consider it and plan your curricula accordingly. For example, I think the SB/MEng program in EECS at MIT is one of the most appealing parts of the MIT EECS undergrad programs. {Yes, for those who noticed, the bachelor's degree at MIT is known as the SB, not the BS}. </p>
<p>Now, to unlimitedx, in the specific case of IB (and to a lesser extent, MC), more experience is not necessarily better. Specifically speaking, more experience in something outside of the industry is not better - or at least is not seen as such. For example, going to work for General Motors for 2 years is not going to really help you be a better banker. Or at least, the banks don't think so.</p>
<p>You see, you have to understand that IB and MC are basically highly incestuous and closed-off worlds. IB's tend to hire experienced people only from other IB's (or related 'cousin' industries like hedge funds, private equity, etc.). They almost never go outside the industry to bring somebody in. This is part of the culture of IB. </p>
<p>I believe there are several factors at play here. First of all, banks want to know that you are truly committed to the industry. IB spots are coveted, so for a bank to give you one, they have to believe that you are truly committed to the industry, and if you worked in the outside, that doesn't speak well to your commitment level unless you have done something drastic in the interim (like go to B-school). In particular, keep in mind the tremendously long hours of the IB experience. Banks are afraid, with a lot of justification, that if you've worked on the outside, then you have probably gotten used to 'normal' working hours, so you'd probably rebel at having to work the sort of hours that Ibankers work. </p>
<p>Secondly, and more importantly, IB's like doing all their hiring in just a few concentrated places, and the most convenient place for them to do that are career offices of the elite schools (both undergrad and B-school). Each IB tends to recruit at no more than 15-20 schools. If they were to open the floodgates to all people to apply, including those with lots of experience, then boatloads of people would apply, which would greatly complicate their hiring process. </p>
<p>And thirdly, you also have to keep in mind that IB jobs are prestigious jobs, and the banks know it. So if you have an outside job and you try to get an IB job, then the bank will think (and justifiably so) that if you're really that good, then why didn't you get hired into IB when you graduated? Or if you did get an IB offer after graduation and didn't take it, then how truly committed are you to the industry? Either way, it doesn't look good. </p>
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Another question is would a MEng help someone get into a top MBA program in the future?
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<p>I can't see how it would hurt. But on the other hand, I wouldn't say that it would be a giant boon as far as MBA admissions are concerned. </p>
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Or would it help someone get a better job than just having a B.S., helping get into a top MBA program from having the better job title?
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<p>I think this is closer to the truth. The MEng will probably make you eligible for better jobs, which will then make you eligible for a better MBA.</p>