Math acceleration... on track to run out of math courses in H.S.

Parents Forum
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<p>Looking for the thoughts of others on this issue, particularly as far as possible college implications for a STEM kid who may be targeting elite colleges down the line.</p>

<p>===</p>

<p>Our middle son is quite accelerated in math. He's taking pre-calc now in 8th grade (shuttling from his middle school to the high school for this class - both are suburban public, about half a mile apart). </p>

<p>His current math track will likely look like this:</p>

<p>9th grade - AP Calc BC
10th grade - AP Stat & Prob
11-12 grade - ???</p>

<p>There are no other advanced math classes offered at the H.S. he'll be at. (I think there are some consumer math classes and the like, but meh...)</p>

<p>Interest-wise, he leans towards science over math, and there IS a very rich set of offerings in high level sciences at the H.S. - multiple AP classes and some stuff that is basically independent research, as well as other STEM offerings like engineering and computer science classes. </p>

<p>Obviously, as an 8th grader, he's not locked into college/major/career preferences yet, but I'd say he leans towards natural sciences, though there's a non-trivial chance he'll go a different path, perhaps something else STEM-ish.</p>

<p>Anyways, our current thinking is that he should take the math sequence above, and then in 11th and 12th grade just overload with science classes - no math (i.e. 2 or 3 science classes each year, or perhaps other STEM classes). </p>

<p>FWIW, he started the year in a virtual (i.e. internet) class for pre-calc and it was a bust, for reasons I won't detail, before switching to the H.S. pre-calc class (which involves some transportation hurdles, but we're dealing with them.) As a result of this experience, both he and we have a negative view of these kinds of classes as possible alternatives for high level math. Another option some folks do is to take classes in person at local community colleges/universities/etc. I wouldn't rule this out for our son, but this would involve a lot of transportation headaches (I'm not aware of anything all that close to us), and I'm not sure if the atmosphere/course material in general would be best for him.</p>

<p>===</p>

<p>Anyways, looking for some thoughts, both from those who may have kids in similar situations, and for those who may have insight on the college admissions ramifications of this stuff.</p>

<p>I'm open to exploring (and going into more detail with my thoughts and our situation) as far as alternatives for taking high level math courses not directly offered at our H.S., but as I said, my general thinking on distance learning alternatives is negative.</p>

<p>As for the college admissions stuff - he does very well on standardized tests, has very good grades (in middle school), is ambitious and STEM oriented. He may end up aiming at very high level universities - perhaps MIT, Cal Tech, Ivies, and/or midwestern elites like WUSTL, U of C, Northwestern, etc. I am somewhat concerned with how these kinds of schools might view a STEM applicant who didn't take any math classes in 11th or 12th grade (but again, will likely overload on science/other STEM). My gut feeling is that this situation would be ok, especially if he does well in class and on AP tests for Calc and Stat, but I'm open to other thoughts and opinions.</p>

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<p>I would figure out way for him to take math in 11th and 12th grade. Depending on his major in college he will need more math than just BC. Regardless of how admissions looks at it, it may be hard to start back up with math after not doing it for 2 years.</p>

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<p>Have you looked at any of the MOOCs offered by Coursera or edX? I have not paid attention to the details as it is my son who has taken the classes, but I wonder if any yet offer ‘credit’ for an on-line college math course? My son has only taken the courses for ‘fun’, so has not been concerned with credit. You have a couple of more years so the MOOC industry may change enough by then that a for credit course is offered.</p>

<p>Alternatively, are there other students on the same track with your son? Our HS only started offering multivariable calc five or six years ago and that was at the request of the handful of students who had completed BC in 11th. Perhaps you can find like-minded parents and start lobbying the administration/Bd of Ed.</p>

<p>I would worry that the community college courses would not be rigorous enough for him but that is b/c our local CC is not good.</p>

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<p>My son wasn’t as advanced as your son, but by the time he was a senior enough other kids had gotten themselves an extra year ahead that the high school put together a Linear Algebra class. </p>

<p>I wouldn’t rule out online courses. It’s not cheap, but EPGY offers lots of university level math: <a href=“https://ohs.stanford.edu/math.html”>https://ohs.stanford.edu/math.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Your son is on track to be 1 year ahead of my older son, who took AP Calculus BC in 10th grade, AP Prob & Stat in 11th and then took Linear Algebra, Differential Equations and Multi-variate Calc at the communtiy college his senior year. He ended up at a top 5 LAC and is now in his 3rd year of a PhD program in Math.</p>

<p>Especially if the sciences your son is interested are physics/engineering I think it would be important to continue with math his last two years of high school. We ended up providing our son a car (a 12 year old Dodge Caravan) so he could drive himself to community college for his math classes.</p>

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<p>If he is interested in more math, see if he can take multivariable calculus, linear algebra, differential equations, and discrete math at a local college after completing calculus BC. These should be available at community colleges and should be of interest for majoring in math, statistics, physics, engineering, or (math-oriented pre-PhD) economics.</p>

<p>More advanced math courses like real analysis and abstract algebra would need a four year school. Apparently, rigor and depth does vary between schools for these courses, so it would be desirable if the school had a strong math department where some students move on to good math PhD programs. Such more advanced courses would mainly be of interest to math majors and some physics, statistics, and economics majors.</p>

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<p>I agree with the poster who said your son should probably NOT have a 2 year gap of math classes. I know you had a bad experience with online courses, but if transportation to a local college would be a huge headache (and could take away from time he could be doing other things), you might want to explore that some more. I don’t know all the details, but before my son’s school added a Calc II class, there was a student who arranged to take an “independent study” calculus class at school, which consisted of him taking an online course that was associated with Johns Hopkins Creative and Talented Youth program. I think he ended up at Columbia. </p>

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<p>I second @MichiganGeorgia‌. One of the most helpful things for math is momentum. Taking it every year helps to keep the mind in a state of numeracy. </p>

<p>Do some research on the local colleges and CCs. While the actual locations may be distant, some schools may offer courses in alternate locations that are closer to you. For example, Texas State is based in San Marcos, TX but also offers a variety of courses off-campus at sites in Georgetown and Round Rock. </p>

<p>Another option to consider, if it’s available in your region, is an early entrance college program. I was once in the same situation as your S - grandfather driving me to HS for precalc in 8th grade, by 10th grade I was out of math runway. So I went to college 2 years early. I’m not going to pretend this doesn’t come with its own risks and complications, but in the end I still look back on it as one of the best decisions of my life.</p>

<p>Finally, I am curious about the reasons for the failure of the virtual class. There are really a variety of different online learning approaches: MOOCs, self-paced courses, semester cohort courses, hybrid courses. The failure of one does not necessarily mean all others will fail.</p>

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<p>There are college math claasses that HS’er can take while in HS. There are also many math books and plenty of personal tutors if math is a great interest.<br>
According to your list, I assumed that he has taken trig and 3-dimensional geometry.<br>
Did you consider him for the world math olympiad? </p>

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<p>Some more info and thoughts:</p>

<p>It is highly unlikely that there would be enough kids at his HS to justify offering a math above Calc BC. There are a few other accelerated kids, but my guess is that at best they could get maybe 5 kids together for a Calc II or whatever, and more likely it would be less. Would probably need about 10 to be able to push such a class through.</p>

<p>He’s done distance learning two ways. In 7th grade, he took Algebra 2/Trig via a video connection to another classroom in the district, where the class was being taught live. The technology was not great, and the live teacher did not like dealing with the remote kids via the problematic technology. Nonetheless, it worked well enough to last the year and get him through the class.</p>

<p>For 8th grade, they tried to offer a ‘virtual’ class, run through Florida Virtual Schools (we’re in the midwest, not FL, but it was not sychronous, so that didn’t really matter.) From my understanding: the course material was weak, there were technology problems again, the local school district was reluctant to provide teaching support, the Florida Virtual School had an assigned instructor who went AWOL after like 3 weeks (with some kind of gap before they could find a replacement teacher, who, I now hear, has ALSO been replaced, so that the class is on the 3rd (possibly 4th) teacher in a bit over 2 months, and it was just a general disaster. He switched out to the current situation (live class at the H.S.) at about the 7 week mark. FWIW, there were two other 8th graders at my son’s school in the same virtual class, but they’re twins and their dad is a math professor who was able to fill in the gaps at home - they’re still in the class but apparently unhappy with it. </p>

<p>Moreover, our son is bright, but has motivation problems - I’d prefer him to be in a classroom, with a physical teacher and with other students.</p>

<p>Re: community college type stuff. I’d have to research the options more closely, but the closest 4 year universities are, I think, about 20+ minute drives away. I’m not even sure if they could handle a H.S. student. There would likely be both transportation and scheduling issues (i.e. if he’s at the H.S. from roughly 8-3, when does he take a class at the college?). There are also more community college-ish type options, but to my understanding, they’re also not physically close, and I guess I have concerns about how MIT or the like might view high level math classes taken at a so-so community college.</p>

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<p>MiamiDAP - he hasn’t been very interested in mathlete style competitions.</p>

<p>He <em>could</em> be interested in similar stuff in science. I think there is are science olympiads of various sorts. That said, I don’t think our H.S. participates in these currently (at least not in a systematic way). It’s on a mental to-do list to check into next year when he’s in H.S. (There <em>IS</em> a pretty cool science extra curricular at the H.S. that’s not competition driven - he’s probably going to explore that this year and may get into that in a big way…)</p>

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<p>My oldest also ran out of math to take in h.s. She wasn’t as advanced as your child in math (our h.s. offers only up through Calc AB), but she did load up on sciences her last couple of years. She ended up getting accepted everywhere she applied, including ivies and other top 20 universities. She had the option of taking more advanced classes at the local college, but she didn’t. I don’t think that hurt her at all.</p>

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<p>I don’t like the two year math gap either. He is good at math, but he may well forget some of what he learned. </p>

<p>I would look into CCs and local Us for next level math classes. Could he take one over the summer if he can’t swing it during the school year? That would help his math mind stay fresh. </p>

<p>Could he take Cal AB and then BC? Slow him down a little?</p>

<p>He doesn’t like Art of Problem Solving type problems? Do u live in a city large enough to have a community of math enthusiasts? Like EC math? Maybe even with college kids? At my college aged son’s U kids get together and work Putnam problems for fun. </p>

<p>I don’t think MIT will care if ur son took math at a CC. The kid is trying to find math! Any math!</p>

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<p>OP,</p>

<p>Start checking into it now. Make it happen. Keep your son motivated. Check out all your options including that college that is 20+ minutes away. Keeping bright/gifted kids motivated is important. Find a way for him to continue math. Take to the high school GC. Talk to MIT for ideas. Yes, load up on science classes, but find a way to take even a semester of math in 11th and 12th. I do understand about the classroom experience but there are some alternatives.</p>

<p>My son was a homeschooler/dual-enrolled kid. Here’s what his math looked like. (He’s a junior at MIT)</p>

<p>7th grade One semestr pre-calc online through local community college; Mathcounts state competition
8th grade One semester Calculus 1 online through local community college; also audited a yearlong physics class at
at a local private univ. Took the SAT II math II and physics exams and AP Physics B</p>

<p>Summer after 8th Took Stats online through local CC</p>

<p>9th grade Calc II and Calc III at the local CC; also took Mechanics and E&M at local community college; took
four APs in math and physics</p>

<p>10th grade Linear Alg. and Dif Equations at the local CC; Also began using a private tutor online for Dif Equations ;
(who was cheap for us) Got back into math competitions; did AIME and Physics Olympiad Semi-final; also<br>
took third semester Physics at local CC; took a couple more APs and retook Calc B/C since he got a 3
the first time
11th grade Continued with his private online tutor, doing more Dif Equations and Dynamical Systems; continued<br>
math and physics competitions; also audited (free) an upper division physics class for a year at a local
state uni.</p>

<p>Summer after 11th Did physics research at the local state univ</p>

<p>12th grade Continued with his online math tutor, doing Dynamical Systems and Real Analysis; Also sort of audited
another upper division physics class; continued with math and physics competitions</p>

<p>Now, we live in a large city. You might not have the options we do, but reaching out the local colleges, professors, etc., and looking for alternative online options might be the way to go. </p>

<p>We went year by year and just tried to keep my son motivated and learning. The opportunities presented themselves because of who my son is (like the research) rather than any finagling on my part.</p>

<p>I hope you can find some things that work for your son.</p>

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<p>(Minor point - I just noticed that the AP Stat class at the H.S. is statistics only - no probability it seems. Not that there’s a separate class focused purely on probability or anything. It seems like it’d be sensible to integrate the topics - oh well…)</p>

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<p>I don’t know of any stats class that doesn’t start with Prob.</p>

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<p>

You might want to dig deeper into that. Probability is 20-30% of the AP Exam, and the College Board would never approve a course audit for a syllabus that lacked it.</p>

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</p>

<p>Anecdotes from other posters indicate that MIT accepted math course work from a CC in California for placement into more advanced math courses (for a math major) with sufficient documentation (stuff like syllabus, textbooks, assignments, exams for courses like calculus 3 and the like), but Michigan did not (for a different student who had to start over in calculus 1 despite completing calculus 3 at a CC while in high school).</p>

<p>Public universities usually have pre-arranged transfer credit articulation with same-state CCs and possibly other schools. You can look up “transfer credit” on the university’s web site.</p>

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<p>AP statistics may be too low level for a highly advanced math student, since it covers the material of a semester long non-calculus introductory probability and statistics course over a year. If a calculus-based probability and statistics course or sequence is available at a college, it may be more interesting to such a student.</p>

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<p>Colleges understand that the course selections available to you may not be ideal. If a community college is all that’s easily available they won’t look down on it, rather they’ll see a kid who has run out of options at the high school and instead of acting helpless, has figured out a way to keep learning. Don’t let the perfect get in the way of the good.</p>