<p>I have an incoming Junior who has always been fairly strong at math, but common core this year has killed some of her confidence. She is currently a sophomore and finishing Algebra II/Trig. Next year she can take pre Calc, then AP Calc her senior year or Stats and AP Stats her senior year. She wants to go the Stats route -- my question is does anyone know if the academic schools, NYU, Michigan, UCLA require Calculus specifically? Or just like to see 4 years of math? Thanks, sorry if this has already been discussed, I couldn't find anything. </p>
<p>No, academic schools do not require Calc especially for a MT student. But if you can manage it and like it, it’s always best to stretch yourself as much as you can while keeping yourself sane. It’s very personal. So, as many years of Math with as high grades and in as high a level as you can. That can mean four years with BC Calc for some kids, and 3 years with Algebra II for another. My oldest got into Tisch with AP Stats, and my D got into Williams with 3 years of Math and no Calc or Stats. My D got into NU with AP Calc. No hard and fast rule.</p>
<p>Connections has already given you a great answer. I guess I would just add an emphasis on taking the most challenging curriculum that is reasonably manageable. Going the Stats to AP Stats route will certainly not kill your D’s chances at the most academically challenging schools, but I do think that these schools will view Pre-Calc to AP Calc as a more rigorous course load, and that that will be the minimum math sequence that the majority of successful applicants (not just MT) to the schools you mentioned will have. </p>
<p>The best answer for your D is individual to her and the context of her high school. How academically competitive is the school? What math sequence do most applicants to those types of schools take? And just how badly has her math confidence been shaken? Could it be improved with a little tutoring this summer? </p>
<p>I hesitate to say anything that adds fuel to the stressful, competitive frenzy of college admissions, but… While it’s true that highly selective schools with strong MT programs are not looking for a pre-STEM major type of HS curriculum from their MT applicants, it is also true that some of their MT applicants will have taken BOTH AP Calc and AP Stats and have great auditions. It is best for your D to make herself the strongest overall candidate she reasonably can. What that means for her requires an individualized assessment within the HS context.</p>
<p>Good luck and don’t stress too much. Connections gave some very heartening examples!</p>
<p>My D is a strong math student, did AP Stats rather than AP Calc and was accepted at both NYU and NU. The deciding factor for her was volume of HW- the Calc teacher told her to expect 1-2 hrs a night. Now that may just be THAT teacher’s system (and said teacher has an EXCELLENT track record with AP scores) but given that D was generally in at least two shows at a time, often rehearsed from 3-9, and was taking 3 other AP classes…</p>
<p>I would recommend the Stats rather than Calc route - D’s friend who is NON MT got into Michigan (LS&A) going the Stats route. Also - it’s easier to manage missing some class in Stats during audition season than Calc. My D also did not take Calc - and was academically admitted everywhere she applied. (She is taking AP Micro and Macro Econ for her Senior Math credits - not Stats OR Calc - but she did take Honors Pre-Calc Junior year)</p>
<p>I think you have gotten some excellent responses here. This is, as you wrote, mostly of issue with the more academically selective MT schools like NU, NYU, UMich, etc. I think your D should at least take four years of math as you say she plans to do. As you can see, kids have gotten into these schools taking either Calculus or Stats. Colleges will look at how rigorous and challenging of a course load she has taken within the context of her own high school. I think the suggestion to consider PreCalculus for junior year and AP Stats for senior year would be a good compromise, rather than two years of Stats, IF she really doesn’t want to try Calculus. At least she will have gone through PreCal and have had four years of math. There is no one correct answer, and her entire course load will be looked at and so if she is taking the hardest classes available in other subject areas, they may be more forgiving if she doesn’t take the hardest track in math. </p>
<p>My D went to NYU/Tisch. She graduated high school after her junior year (in 3 years). She took AP Calculus in Junior Year (had PreCal in tenth grade). I am sure many go to NYU who have never taken Calculus even as a senior. </p>
<p>Thank you all - this is very helpful. She is taking 2 ap’s next year plus physics, plus Spanish 4 so she is definitely challenged - I will give it some more thought. She is a busy kid - goes to a performing arts HS and is always in a show so I am worried about her being overloaded. Good to know she isn’t ex’d out by not taking precalc. </p>
<p>I’ll play devil’s advocate. Your daughter is a rising junior which means she has only 1/2 of her HS education finished and the other half in front of her. Is she sure she wants MT because if she decides this coming year or next that she’d really rather do something else, and is academically capable as far as math goes, calculus could be a good thing to have under her belt.</p>
<p>My daughter went the distance for math. I have no regrets whatsoever about it whether she ever uses it or not. Box forever checked.</p>
<p>Let me tell you what having completed calculus and scoring a 5 on the AP looks like on the ground for an MT at some of these more academically selective schools - well at least at NYU. It means you might be the theatre major who helps your business school or science program roommates/floor mates with their calculus homework. As far as your actual program of study goes, having completed calculus will be of little value for admission or for matriculation. I still don’t regret that she did it. </p>
<p>I think for even the most competitive programs, select what will help you get the best grade. We did not find taking higher level, more difficult classes to provide any advantage in the admissions process to MT programs, but we did find most schools used an unweighted gpa to determine scholarships. So we would have been better off getting an A in a basic math class than a B in an AP class. </p>
<p>This might be true at certain types of schools, likely less academically selective universities…where a mere calculation of an unweighted GPA determines scholarships. But this is not the case at more academically selective schools that don’t simply use “numbers” to determine academic admissions or scholarships. At the more academically selective universities, it is more holistic in approach to academic admissions and scholarships…For example, they will care WHAT you took and not just your GPA…and they like to see rigorous courses taken. They look at the entire application. </p>
<p>So, I think the answer here really depends on the university and I think the OP is asking about the more academically selective universities which don’t use “numbers” as cut offs for admission or for scholarships but look at a lot of things in sum. </p>
<p>Again, I don’t know that the OP’s daughter needs to take Calculus even for the most selective MT schools (which are not the most selective universities in the country…if she was asking about getting into elite schools or Ivies, I would most definitely recommend she take Calculus)…but I do think she should take a rigorous curriculum and four years of math. If all her other subjects are AP, it would be OK if senior year math were to be Stats and not Calculus, I believe. But I still think taking PreCalculus as a junior would be better than taking two years of Stats. That would be a happy medium here. </p>
<p>I’ll add personal experience here on the scholarship front since that was mentioned…</p>
<p>My D had scholarship offers and financial aid letters from 7 BFA schools. Many were substantial. While I don’t want to give my D’s GPA and test scores here…she had pretty high test scores but not perfect and a very good GPA but not tippy top. She took a rigorous high school curriculum (the most challenging available at our rural public school…which at the time only offered one AP class…Calculus, which she took as a junior, though she took all Honors classes, which was the highest available at that time at our school…plus had accelerated in several subjects). She had various other achievements, great recs, essays, and the like. Since NYU was mentioned by the OP, she got the highest scholarship award I think that they offer and it was pretty significant (again, her GPA, while quite good, would not have been one of the top ones of all admitted students and so obviously they did NOT use a cut off number with GPA!). She also was selected as one of 15 Tisch (all of Tisch, not just Drama) Scholars (which no longer exists) and that letter indicated that selection was based on various things including academic achievement but also things like leadership (she was a leader in high school and became one again in college). So, again, I don’t think schools like NYU simply use a “numbers” cut off to admit students or to award even their highest level scholarships. </p>
<p>For MT or anythin art/humanities-related, she doesn’t need calculus at all.
In fact calculus isnt expected in admissions, except for engineering (and even engineering programs don’t require it - only HarveyMudd and CalTech do, and MIT expects it if it’s offered at the HS). In short, the Stats AP-Stats route is perfectly fine for MT <em>or other majors</em> as long as her plan B isn’t engineering. </p>
<p>However, the OP is not simply asking about Stats vs Calculus (for senior year in this case). She is also talking as to whether to take PreCalculus or Stats. I think PreCalculus and one year of Stats is going to look more rigorous to selective colleges compared to only going through Alg. II and then two years of Stats. </p>
<p>^I agree, if the school allows precalc + stats, that’s the ideal combination. I was under the impression the school had two prescribed paths, and she had to choose one… However, choosing one over the other wouldn’t affect her MT admission decisins, nor would it affect any other PlanB <em>except</em> for stem (where precalc is expected - not calc).</p>
<p>While not relevant to this discussion for musical theater programs, I will add that I don’t agree with MYOS in saying that Calculus is not expected in admissions except for engineering at non-MT colleges. I think elite schools such as Ivies and others of that level of selectivity, are going to look more positively at a student who took Calculus over Stats, even though they surely admit students who have not taken Calculus. Elite colleges (again, not talking about MT schools) do like to see “most rigorous curriculum” chosen. I say this as someone who advises students professionally in my job who are applying to elite colleges. I also have a daughter who went to an Ivy (not for engineering) and had TWO YEARS of Calculus before entering college and took the most challenging curriculum offered and then some (our HS only offers up through AP Calculus and so she took a second year of Calculus long distance through Johns Hopkins Center for Talented Youth in senior year after exhausting our high school’s math curriculum in her junior year).</p>
<p>As an aside, this daughter never took another math course again…none in college. When she applied to grad schools, she needed two years of Calculus and her two years in high school and the AP scores she obtained on the Calculus AP AB and Calculus AP BC exams sufficed for her entrance into the top grad schools in her field (these included Ivies as well). Those two years of HS Calculus really came in handy for her so she never had to take math again and she was happy for that. </p>
<p>I just took the AP Stats test on Friday. I’ve really enjoyed the class and although stats isn’t really APPLICABLE to MT, I personally find it a lot more interesting than trig or calc…which I will have to take next year, ugh.</p>
<p>I agree with the precalc, AP stats as the happy medium. Colleges want to see that you took a rigorous curriculum- and an “A” in regular math does NOT look better than a “B” in AP to a selective college. In the information your child’s school provides to all colleges, they will see the number of APs/IBs, honors courses etc… offered- and they will evaluate students based on the rigor of their choices. Again, my D always got good grades in math- but she worked for them harder than say English or Social studies. She took 4 years of all core subjects. Only 1 of those was AP math (AP stats, as mentioned earlier) but she also had AP French, AP Music theory, 2 AP sciences (environmental science and biology), 2 AP English classes (Comp and Lit) and 3 AP History classes (US, Government and Euro). Her school offers 17 AP classes - she took 9 across every type of AP class offered…a college is going to look at that and see she was working her tail off- even though she never took AP calc</p>
<p>I can offer our own personal experience from this audition season, for what it’s worth. Our D has always taken a mix of classes, some AP and some not. Her unweighted GPA is 3.4, and we were hopeful that through weighting it would push over 4.0. She started senior year with Calc and struggled with it because of her busy theater life and the demands of college audition prep, etc. For second semester she changed to an online Stat class and enjoyed life a lot more. When she was contemplating the change she wrote to the admissions departments of all of the colleges where she had sent applications to see if they objected. NYU was the only school that said she should stay in Calc. Most of the schools said “we don’t care.” Some even said “why are you in Calc?”</p>
<p>Unfortunately we found out too late the dirty secret about GPA/merit based scholarships. NONE of the schools used a WEIGHTED GPA to determine the level of scholarship money that they awarded to our D. It was really disheartening to know that her challenging class schedule probably cost her thousands of dollars in scholarship money.</p>
<p>I know that the class load does matter for many schools and programs, but in most instances it does not matter for MT kids. The time spent carrying a heavy class load might be better spent taking more private voice/acting lessons and doing audition prep, because those things probably have a greater impact on MT kids’ futures than their class load.</p>