<p>Ok- going devil’s advocate here, and before I start, I will confess that I am a high school AP teacher, and that surely impacts my opinion. I also want to say before I start, that EVERYONE is entitled to their own opinion and their own path. I would say it’s a good idea to be very careful about watering down academics for the sake of additional training. All kids should take classes that are appropriate for them, and there is nothing wrong with taking non honors/AP/accelerated in an area that isn’t a strength. But if a kid is bright, and are told to take classes that won’t challenge them so they can do more shows or take more lessons, isn’t that sending a worrisome message? Isn’t it important to remember that there is a world beyond MT, and kids need to have as many tools as possible to be a functional part of the world? I mean it’s true- most normal humans will never use calculus in their actual lives, or physics, or poetry, or ancient history- but the WILL use skills of logic, investigation, higher level thinking/perception that advanced (AP or not) classes teach. And remember, theater careers IF they happen, can be shortened by many things…couldn’t it be said that having a multifaceted education is better? There, soapbox over</p>
<p>Speaking for us - D took every honors course and almost every AP course available to her during her 4 years - but decided against AP Calc senior year - not because she was trying to reduce the rigor of her schedule (she replaced with AP Micro/Macro Economics) but because she needed a class where missing a week in February for Unifieds wouldn’t leave her hopelessly behind. We knew from her older sister’s experience that Calc would be much more difficult to miss than Econ. Calc builds concepts on top of concepts each day - and a missed class can lead to missing a building block required for the remainder of the semester! Cheesehead Mike makes an excellent point about grades and scholarships as well - if your goal is Northwestern or similar - then you need to pay closer attention to rigor - if your goal is an MT program - many of which are housed at private universities - scholarships can be critical. I know our D had many more options because of the scholarships she earned, than she would have had otherwise. </p>
<p>All this being said, by Senior year - I think it’s OK to take some classes that are true electives - they are aspiring artists for goodness sake - I encouraged her to take Photography, and TV Productions - both seemed like they would have practical applications for her future - but, again, made the missed school for Unifieds and campus visits in April much less traumatic! The only schools she was rejected from academically were those that bundled that decision with the artistic decision - and at those that required it, she passed the pre-screen which indicates that she was academically qualified. </p>
<p>Obviously this is very much a personal choice for a family - and the choices made will depend upon your student and the colleges on their list!</p>
<p>cheeseheadmike, it can’t be emphasized enough that it depends on the kinds of colleges on one’s list. At less academically selective colleges, the rigor of the curriculum will matter less than at the very selective colleges. And some of these less academically selective colleges may indeed use some GPA number to determine scholarships. But the OP is asking about the more academically selective MT schools…UMich, NYU, Northwestern (the ones she mentioned, though a few others might be added here). Those schools WILL care about the academic rigor of the high school course load in context of one’s high school’s offerings. Their scholarships are not going to be a simple “humber cut off.” I can also share that in a meeting with the admissions person for the UMichigan School of Music with my daughter and myself, we were expressly told that they indeed do care about the rigor of one’s chosen course load. </p>
<p>I also agree with “too wonderful” that there are reasons to challenge oneself academically beyond what is needed for college admissions. The more rigorous courses may prepare someone better for college level work…both the content, but also the level of study skills needed to succeed in any college major. But also, there is something to be said for the educated MIND…this will take someone far…it is not JUST about “getting into college” but also having wordily knowledge, higher level thinking and problem solving skills, writing skills, and so on. This will serve someone well in the work world and in life. While my professional actor/singer daughter doesn’t use Calculus in her life now, she had rigorous academic classes in college at NYU (though did not take any math courses) and did well in these, and as an actor, as well as a professional writer/composer, now…her thinking skills and understanding of the world beyond singing, acting, and dancing, serve her well in the theater and music worlds. </p>
<p>By the way, when my MT kid took AP Calculus in her junior year (she was 15 when she began actually), it was even more challenging than usual because at our small rural public high school, only seniors take AP Calculus typically and only ONE class of it is offered during the school day. She was a junior and that AP Calculus class was offered at the same time as the highest level English/History (combo class) for juniors (which was the level of rigor she needed) and so there was a schedule conflict. Therefore, in order to take AP Calculus (the level she had reached following tenth grade), she had to do it as a scheduled Independent Study during the school day, whereby she sat in the Math Dept. head’s office and was given all the assignments that the class was given and all the tests and had to complete them without even getting to attend the class! </p>
<p>PS…I agree with “too wonderful” also that many who pursue MT degrees may not make it in the theater world and so it is always good to have a very solid education for whatever work may lie ahead in one’s career. </p>
<p>I guess I should add that I may feel likewise with “too wonderful” because I am also an educator…having taught on the elementary school, college and grad school levels and having been a college admissions counselor for high school aged students. So, take my perspective for what it is worth, but it likely stems from being more than a “parent.” :)</p>
<p>@toowonderful welcome to the soap box - there’s always room. And coffee. And margaritas.</p>
<p>And donuts. Don’t forget the donuts.</p>
<p>^^“Their scholarships are not going to be a simple “humber cut off.” I can also share that in a meeting with the admissions person for the UMichigan School of Music with my daughter and myself, we were expressly told that they indeed do care about the rigor of one’s chosen course load.”</p>
<p>They may care about the rigor as a whole however they will not count you out of scholarships. My D’s friend received a full ride from UMichigan School of a Music, only taking one AP class, a few honors classes and personal finance for their last math class. They had a good unweighted but not tippy top. </p>
<p>Like others have said it is a personal choice, there is no right or wrong answer, know your kid and how missing a lot of time will effect their stress level when it comes to academics. I do believe for admissions many take a holistic approach and even though my D is a nervous standardized test taker, but was in top ten percent of class, along with a lot of ec’s and leadership roles was academically accepted at all schools she applied. </p>
<p>My feeling is that stats is more useful in the real world than calc unless you are going into a STEM field. </p>
<p>@cheeseheadmike I am always down for margaritas and donuts :)</p>
<p>@toowonderful when you put it like that I think we’d better make some nachos instead…</p>
<p>@cheeseheadmike - Guacamole is a good answer to many many questions</p>
<p>I responded early on but I’d like to reiterate what I said. My response is based on the experiences of my own four children (not just one) as well as my experience as a teacher and a private tutor.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>If you want to maximize your chances of getting in and getting a good scholarship, take as rigorous a class in all subjects as <em>you</em> are able to take. Obviously, do not take AP Calc if you worked to get a C in Algebra. But it is a big mistake to say, “I will get my BFA in MT and the schools won’t care.” You have no way of knowing that - you are actually simply lowering your overall chances of both scholarships and admission - <em>and</em> as a rising Junior, you also have no way of knowing if you will still be getting your BFA in MT. If you are not a math person, and you struggle for a C, obviously don’t take an AP class. But if you can pull a B or A in an AP Calc class, and it is not 80 hours/night HW, take it. It’s very individual. There is no hard and fast rule.</p></li>
<li><p>That said, my daughter got into Williams (a top school) with 3 years of math and a 610 in the SAT math portion. She is just not a math person. She compensated with other high level stuff. So here is an example of someone who got into a top school with lower math stats. However, she did have very high stats in other areas. And my son got into Tisch with AP Stats. But my D did take AP Calc (and got a 5) even though Math isn’t her thing, and she did get into NU. Whatever all that means, who knows. </p></li>
<li><p>It is untrue that only GPA matters. That is true only of lower tier schools. The OP was asking for higher tiered schools. In that case, the rigor of the class is what matters, as well as the grade of course. It’s a mistake to take a lower level class to get an A because you’re afraid of getting a B in Calc. Again, if you loathe math and/or struggle in it, then of course dont’ take the highest level. But this is for people who can do it. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>All in all, you increase your chances the more rigorous your schedule, but don’t make yourself crazy and know yourself. There is no line in the sand.</p>
<p>^^Agree on all you wrote!</p>
<p>very well said- and very true!! You never know what the future holds- you may need math to make sure your business manager isn’t stealing all the $$ you make as a superstar!</p>
<p>As a former professor, MT parent, and now college consultant (with probably way less experience in that area than most of you!), I also completely agree with connections. It sounds like you and your D want to maximize your daughter’s chances at the academically competitive MT schools, and that means taking the most rigorous overall program that is manageable. </p>
<p>Also, as others have mentioned, your D’s goals and plans may change by senior year. I have seen examples on CC of highly qualified MT candidates who have decided senior year of HS that getting a BA at Yale, Brown, Northwestern, etc. will be the better route for them. If your daughter is able to get at least a B in Pre-Calc and AP Calc without inordinate stress, she will have a marginally better shot at those types of schools.</p>
<p>There WILL be other MT girls who take AP Calc along with an overall rigorous HS curriculum and are also really strong MT candidates. I can think of 5 girls in our area off the top of my head who will take AP Calc in either 11th or 12th grade, have many years of MT training and experience, and multiple professional regional theatre credits. Who knows how well they will audition when the time comes, but they are doing what they can to maximize their chances at the academically competitive MT schools. The best way to improve the odds for your D is to focus on what is within your D’s control. A rigorous course load is one such thing (out of many).</p>
<p>Every kid is different, and there is no one path to success in MT or anything else. The audition matters greatly at all the schools you mentioned, and the overall rigor of your D’s HS curriculum is more important than one specific course choice, and many other factors beyond her control will come into play. But if your D seems able to handle the more rigorous math, I agree with connections, soozievt, and toowonderful, and would suggest that she at least start down that road with Pre-Calc in 11th grade and see how it goes.</p>
<p>I don’t think a B in AP Calc will help you at all at Northwestern. </p>
<p>^^^ The problem is that not attempting either Pre-Calculus or Calculus will not help at Northwestern, either. That is the dilemma.</p>
<p>We were at one of those pre-college things at St. Paul my son’s junior year and some admissions guy from …maybe Amherst was asked, “Is it better to get Bs in AP or As in regular classes?” and he said, “It is better to get As in AP.” and that was that. </p>
<p>Jkellynh…that is a common quote in terms of selective college admissions. Of course an A in an AP course is “better.” But it is not necessary to have straight A’s to get into the top schools in the land. Taking the most rigorous courses is sorta expected. For a place like Northwestern, a student with a B in AP Calculus could be admitted, and would look strong if they had As in their other courses and took the most rigorous courses. I would say that may even look stronger than an A in Stats. Selective colleges indeed like to see students challenging themselves. Getting As in very rigorous courses is “better,” but someone who took a challenging course load with very good grades is still a viable candidate. A student who takes mostly “regular classes” and not the most difficult at their high school, is likely the worse off of these various scenarios at highly selective colleges, even if they have “better grades.”</p>
<p>Another thing…look at high schools that compute class rank using WEIGHTED GPAs. They do this because there is something to be said for the rigor of the most demanding classes and what a grade is worth in a more rigorous course than an easier course.</p>
<p>Going out on a limb here to say that a lot of this depends on the culture/rigor of your HS. My sons went to very academic private parochial school where APs were/are very much an expected part of the college preparatory curriculum. To be a drama kid AND take high level STEM APs was/is not out of the ordinary, nor would it be for a sports kid or a band kid or a visual artist. And because of the academic rigor of their school, the choice not to avail themselves of the AP opportunities might actually have raised more questions. Talk it through with your college counselors based on the general admissions profiles of the colleges you’re interested in AND the rigor of your HS. While your counselors may not be familiar with the performing arts part of the equation, they probably have some experience of the types of students those colleges have accepted/rejected based on tests/transcripts in prior years. You’ll have to do a gut check at some point, but you’ll get general guidelines. Also, the AP teachers at your school may meet with you or your child to discuss the expectations of the class(es) and which path might be best. </p>