Math and MT -- Stats vs. Calculus

<p>I had no idea STATS is not considered as challenging art Calculus…</p>

<p>There is nothing wrong with taking Stats. But it is considered sorta…“Calculus Lite.”</p>

<p>@soozievt lol about this thread and the class mix thread. I am a business analyst who sucked at math in high school and college. Now, I like to apply math to everything I can :)</p>

<p>I have such an issue with weighted vs unweighted grades… </p>

<p>On a certain topic, do you guys think quitting Spanish after 2nd year is okay? I speak it fluently and my dad is a mexico native so I keep getting practice and i don’t know</p>

<p>Does your school offer AP spanish? You could top out that way…</p>

<p>@broadwaybum - 2 years of foreign language in HS is usually the “minimum” requirement at highly selective colleges. 3 consecutive years of the same foreign language are required at my kids’ HS, to give you a sense of one school’s college preparatory expectation. In general, it is advisable to do more than the minimum if your goal is to get into an academically competitive college. </p>

<p>However, if you already speak Spanish fluently (how is your reading/writing?), then that is a special circumstance that you may want to discuss with your college counselor. As has been discussed above, the context of your school matters, admissions are holistic, no one class is make-or-break. </p>

<p>What would you replace it with? If you are just going to drop Spanish to have a free period, then that won’t look as strong as if you replace it with a substantial academic or arts/music class.</p>

<p>The rule of thumb is to NOT take a class at the AP level if you’re not sure you can get at least a B in it. Adcoms are not impressed with C’s in AP.
Calculus is NOT necessary for college admissions (although it’s a good thing to have for STEM). Precalc + AP Stats would be perfectly legitimate and would not hurt an application, whether for MT or another field.
Foreign language: you don’t need the years, you need the level. All selective universities expect 4 (even if they write “2”, which is what some rural/low performing schools offer… but if your school offers more, you better have a good explanation as to why you stopped.) You can take online classes, go to Concordia Language Camp, or just take the AP test and/or SAT2 test ( CEF: SAT2 is A2, AP is B1). So, if you speak, read, and write almost natively, take the AP Spanish Language exam and/or the AP Spanish Lit exam or class. If you’re Arts&humanities, you can add another language and have two languages at a good level as a senior, in order to offset another aspect of your curriculum (such as math/science deficiencies).
BTW, for a future “arts” major, AP History classes and AP Art History (plus AP Music, etc) would be more useful than AP Calc.
Since MT programs are so hard to get into, most students will attend a “regular” university: they need to be prepared for that. But they also need time to breathe, sleep, see their friends. Free periods and multiple study halls (unless mandatory) look bad, but overscheduling and burning out senior year have consequences too. We, strangers on the internet, can’t guess what a balanced schedule will be for you.</p>

<p>@elsacc well, actually, I am a high honors student, and I could take AP spanish through Northwestern U (I am in a program with that U. AND Notre Dame) So do you think I can get away with that? I already plan to replace it with AP Music Theory</p>

<p>Yeah I’ve got to disagree about the “all selective universities expect 4 even if they write 2.” I’m not so sure that is a hard and fast rule and I know this in particular because this was an area we just paid very close attention to with my senior son who only had 2 years of FL for reasons I won’t get into but it was the right call for him. Instead he loaded up other science and honors level classes. Two years of FL did not prevent him from getting into several very selective universities but it did mean he had to write a letter of explanation to the one school on his list (Claremont McKenna) that specifically required 3. So if you have an idea of what schools you might be interested in, check to see if they want 3 or more. Some do and won’t be flexible about it.</p>

<p>As a PS, in the end, the foreign language requirement was actually the issue that tipped one school over the other. My son will be pursuing a BS degree, not a BA, and at the school he chose to attend this fall doesn’t need foreign language through level 3 for the BS. However at USC (which was the other school he came down to deciding between) he would have to do foreign language through level 3 even for a BS degree. That would mean starting over for him and he just didn’t want to do it. But as far as admissions goes, it didn’t prevent him from getting into USC and schools like it who would have allowed him to fulfill that requirement in college. He didn’t get in everywhere he applied (few people do if you are chasing a really competitive list) so we will never know if the fact that he had only 2 years of FL had anything to do with it but I doubt it. It’s a good question to ask your school counselor about before opting out especially if you are already fluent. Might be easy to stick with it just to avoid having it be a possible impediment when you do apply to college. For my son, FL study was the leviathan and not time well spent proportionally. </p>

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<p>broadwaybum, it all depends the kinds of colleges you are striving to apply to. You’d keep more options open to have at least three years of foreign language. </p>

<p>If you speak Spanish fluently, it seems to me that you should be able to accelerate and skip to a higher level than you are currently placed in! My kids took French and are NOT native speakers (and parents speak none of it), and accelerated a couple of years in order to be placed at the appropriate level. By junior year, they were in French 5 (highest level offered). So, beyond the question you actually posed, I would be concerned if you are appropriately placed in the right level. </p>

<p>I would see about accelerating, if possible to AP Spanish next year. </p>

<p>But if that can’t work out, at least take the language in school for three years, since some colleges will want that and just doing the “minimum” is not great for the more academically selective schools. Four years of foreign language would be even better, but three would suffice for many schools. Two would be OK, for some, but knocks out some. </p>

<p>Lastly, speaking Spanish may not be the same as being a good Spanish reader/writer. But if you are THAT fluent, perhaps you could sit for the AP Spanish test without taking AP Spanish. ANOTHER option is to take the SAT Subject Test in Spanish and score high and that would show your ability right there, if it is as fluent as you say, enough to only take two years of Spanish in HS. </p>

<p>Lastly, I have advised a few native speaking Spanish Acting/MT students, but they took Spanish all through HS anyway and up through AP Spanish…one went to Texas State (but got into schools such as Northwestern, NYU/Tisch, and more) and one went to NYU/Tisch (but got into Stanford and others), and one went to U of Michigan. So, they had very strong academic transcripts that included up through AP Spanish, despite growing up bilingual.</p>

<p>Older D got accepted to NYU VP (MT) with a 98+ gpa and a rigorous course load that included honors track math and ap calc. Younger D had her sights on NYU as well, but was not a strong math student. She started pre-calc junior year, but by November it was clear that she was barely passing (with tutoring.) Rather than blow her gpa, she dropped math altogether for junior year. She picked it up again senior year with college algebra (a lower level math class.) In the end she applied to NYU with a 90.1 gpa, AP English, AP Eco and US, AP bio, College Spanish (which btw gave her 6 transfer credits) and college algebra. She also never took physics, but chose Anatomy and Physiology instead junior year. Her SAT’s reflected her math lopsidedness. 610 math, 720 verbal. Despite a strong MT background, she decided to apply as a studio art major–so like MT, talent was 50% of her application.
She had great recommendations and strong commitment to choir, MT, acappella, and art. Many leadership positions. In the end she was accepted!! But on top of that, despite my concerns about her gpa and rigor, she was placed in Steinhardt’s scholars program! Recently she asked a dean at Steinhardt who advised the scholars program for a letter of recommendation. It was interesting to read how my d’s wide range of interests in areas that embodied what Steinhardt offered (music, art and education) was the reason for her selection to honors (and I’m sure her admittance in general.) Clearly her weakness in math was not an issue. </p>

<p>Precalc, even senior year, is fine. Precalc and stats is fine. Not completing precalc would require AP Stats but Stats and AP Stats is fine. Calculus is fine too (but really not a prerequisite even for competitive universities where a student doesn’t plan to apply to a BFA - calculus is considered a college class.) Not taking anything above Algebra2 isn’t.
Foreign language is a different beast from math (I’m not talking just MT here): they look at the level achieved rather than the number of years (ie., if you have an SAT score or an AP score you’re fine) but for the top schools (academics/reputation-wise), your native language doesn’t count so you could be in Heritage Speaker Language and take the AP exam, you’d still need to take a foreign language or take an exam. HYP are quite specific about it. This does not apply to UCs and public schools in general. NYU also considers that if you are a heritage speaker and can demonstrate writing/reading skills at the AP level you’re fine and will get credit for it.</p>

<p>@broadwaybum - You have gotten some good answers about the foreign language requirement. Your plan to take AP Spanish through NU seems like it could be a good idea for you, although I am not completely clear on the logistics of that plan. Is that an online course? Does your high school not offer AP Spanish?</p>

<p>As for using the free slot during your HS day to take AP Music Theory, that also seems like a good idea, as long as you are also taking Spanish through NU or something similar. </p>

<p>As others have stated and as I alluded to in my questions above, colleges will not (and should not) assume you have the ability to read and write well in Spanish even if you speak it fluently and live in a Spanish-speaking home. If you are a high honors student aiming at academically competitive MT schools, you should take the AP or SAT Subject test.</p>

<p>In thinking about taking APs at your H.S., be sure to look at the track record of AP test scores from previous years’ classes. My S transferred to a “not” academically rigorous PA H.S. in his junior year. He took AP Calc his junior year and with very little work, receive the only “A” in the class (I’m NOT bragging, keep reading). He received a “3” on the exam (not remotely acceptable at upper tier schools, but may be “passable” for a student in the Arts). No one else in the class even passed it, and some chose not to take it at all. When I had asked the teacher at fall open house what the past record was for students receiving 4s and 5s on the exam, he evaded my question. S had transferred from a VERY academically rigorous H.S., where his older brother had taken AP Calc. During older S’s open house, the teacher was able to say that 75% of his students received 4s and 5s on the exam. “Older brother” had received Cs and Ds in Calc class at rigorous H.S. but achieved a 4 on the exam. Although it may “look good” to have a high grade in an AP class - it at least looks like you tried to work at a high level - beware of being in a class that does not prepare you for the exam. Upper tier schools are going to want to see that exam score. When MT S was creating senior schedule he purposely did NOT take AP Chem b/c of same historical grade vs. exam-score discrepancy as AP Calc. S does not like science and knows he will NEVER choose that as a career, so he took “honors” Physics online through school’s APEX system. If he were more math/science inclined I would have encouraged him to do AP math and/or science online. Northwestern has a wonderful online system for taking college level classes as a high schooler. We had actually looked at MT S completing his Latin AP Vergil via this method when he was contemplating transferring to Art H.S. his sophomore year (Thank God, he didn’t. His academic learning virtually came to a halt when he transferred to PA H.S.) As others have said. know yourself and what you are capable of vs. what will make you miserable.</p>

<p>Your school does not have to offer AP Spanish (or any other AP class) for you to take the test- you just have to register for it through guidance. My D’s HS did not offer AP European History- but she loves it (and I teach it) She didn’t want the “rules” of independent study- she had plenty of credits- so we just worked the material when we had time and signed her up for the test</p>

<p>You all do know that there is an entire universe of schools out there that have absolutely no clue what one means by AP this or AP that because their schools don’t AP anything. Colleges accept those kids too.</p>

<p>Both of my kids went to high schools (2 different) that didn’t AP because they wanted to own what they taught and didn’t want to be teaching to the test. Before you kill me for that philosophy just know that it was what the schools thought and frankly… based on the education that both of my kids had I’m more than OK with it. They were well educated without needing the restrictions of AP.</p>

<p>These same kids who went to a school that doesn’t have AP classes can still take the AP tests and might do well or might not depending on whether or not the specific subject matter was covered… or not. Teaching to the test vs. not matters in a practical sense only with respect to preparing a student for the test. But not for life and not necessiraly for the practical application of the subject in life. </p>

<p>My son didn’t take any AP tests. I don’t give a rats… you know what about that. Go to college and start at the beginning. I’m not on a race to nowhere and nor should he be. But this son got into some pretty great schools without any AP this or AP that. And he will always suck at foreign language study because of what studying it it actually requires but not at the practical aspects of foreign language speaking. That he’d be great at. Plop him in the middle of a foreign country and he’d probably pick up the language quicker than most because he would be curious, and would talk to people even if it was pantomime at first. AP tests don’t account for that and if that is what matters more to a particular school, we don’t care. </p>

<p>So sorry… not buying the advice that you must AP this and AP that. It ignores the reality that so many high schools have absolutely no idea what that even means and still manage to place their students at prestigious and highly competitive schools. </p>

<p>^two types of schools ignore APs: those with an even more rigorous programs (top prep schools, IB, AICE) and low performing ones (too expensive, not enough qualified students).
OP is clearly not attending either type of school.</p>

<p>^^ Hear, Hear - halflokum. As long as parents/students/counselors/teachers keep buying into the “need” for APs, the test makers (and tutoring businesses) will keep making money, and our kids will keep chasing their tails, learning - no practicing - how to “ace” the prescribed content on yet another test. “Rigorous” H.S.s, like the nationally-ranked one my MT S transferred FROM, are VERY good at training their students to “achieve” those “scores”. But “learning”? Where’s the curiosity and TRUE exploration? MT S was perhaps better off at less rigorous PA school where he could practice piano and had “free” time to explore arranging music for his two a cappella groups - where he was truly able to learn from his own mistakes. Yeah, we played the game. Had S privately tutored to “ensure” National Merit eligibility. Did he “learn” anything? Yeah, now he’s faster at taking multiple choice tests. I guess you could say that skill came in handy when he “realized” he needed to complete half a semester of online Psychology class in less than a day - so he could “acquire” another social studies credit, to “achieve” an “honors” diploma by next week. What does he remember “learning” from the course? - The meaning of “tabula rasa” - which happens to be the title of an Arvo Part piece on a CD that’s on rotation in my car right now. </p>

<p>In thinking about the “value” of APs, some of you might want to take a look at the “Kindergarten Show Canceled” thread. Here’s an interesting link regarding the “devaluing” of Arts (and other) classes in relation to APs from a TEDx talk by a student known to @raellis123. I think my S’s “rigorous” H.S. actually gave AP and AA honors classes a GPA weight of 6. Food for thought.</p>

<p><a href=“Why taking choir kept me from being a Valedictorian: Austin Channell at TEDxColumbus - YouTube”>Why taking choir kept me from being a Valedictorian: Austin Channell at TEDxColumbus - YouTube;