Math Class Dilemma - Please Give Advice! (Esp. if you took AP Calc)

Test Preparation
1

<p>OK. I'm in a particularly unusual dilemma here as far as selecting what math classes I should take this year. Here's my situation:</p>

<p>I'm a Senior
I took Geometry as a junior (Not Analytic Geometry; Euclidian Geometry, the one advanced math students take in middle school)</p>

<p>How did I fall behind in math? Well, I was formerly homeschooled, and suffice to say, my math instruction was not up to par... when math didn't immediatly "click" for me (the uncoordinated and hazy way my tutor taught it) it was assumed I was just "bad at math" and my curriculum was focused more toward what I was "good" at... language, humanities, etc... which led to less emphasis on math, which led to less math homework, which led to... me having to take Geometry as a junior.</p>

<p>I did great in the class - I know Plane Geometry is not hard math, but it really opened up the whole concept of math to me, as something fun, easy and understandable. It went from a chore, to something exciting. When the school library was giving away old Pre-calc and Calc textbooks, I took them home. I read them over the summer, and though I did not work through them with rigor the way a class would, the concepts and ideas all seemed very straightforward to me, and not hard to learn at all, especially w/ daily homework practice and a teacher to reiterate and further explain things.</p>

<p>Here's my current situation:
I'm currently enrolled (at school) for:
Trig/Analytic Geometry (both half year courses)
Pre-Calc
+ Algebra II (online class)</p>

<p>I want to know, given the fact that I am:
EXTREMELY MOTIVATED
EXTREMELY HARDWORKING
ALWAYS PAY TOTAL ATTENTION IN CLASS
CAN DO HOMEWORK TILL 4:00 AM WITHOUT COMPLAINING
WILLING TO DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO DO WELL IN CLASS, HW, etc... </p>

<p>...am I better off taking AP Calculus? (AB of course)</p>

<p>Or do you think that Pre-Calc is ESSENTIAL to the study of Calc?
Honestly, the course description for Precalc sounds like it covers the same things Trig and Analytic Geo. cover - the Pre-calc textbooks I took home also were mainly trig, analytic geo, with some review of Algebra II.</p>

<p>The prerequisite for Precalc at my high school is Algebra I and Geometry-- which I have. It is an "Honors" course, and in my high-school, Honors really means: "Let's make kids feel special for being half-way intelligent and eliminate all rigor from the course." AP is the only real rigor that exists, and I do want to be challenged, TO THE MAX. </p>

<p>The AP Calc prerequisite is Trig/Analytic geom, which I will be taking concurrently with that class. </p>

<p>So, all you Math Magicians, Conquistadors of Calculus, and AP Afficionados - tell me what you think: Should I go for AP Calc and get college credit, or is am I biting off way more than I can chew, even with my motivation, a waste of my free-time, and i'm better off just sticking to Pre-Calc, An. Geo/Trig, and Alg II?</p>

<p>My main goal in considering AP calc is 1 ) Making up for lost time 2) Proving to colleges that I can suceed in college-level math (thus making up for taking geo. as a junior..) 3) Challenging myself to the maximum.</p>

<p>Also, for Calculus students, tell me: do you think Calculus is a largely self-contained field of mathematics, or do you think it's very highly dependent on prior knowledge? </p>

<p>Also: do you think Pre-calc is important, or basically just a way of delaying calc study and reviewing old ideas to ensure "success" among the rather forgetful and unmotivated student body of the typical high school...</p>

<p>Let me know all your opinions. Also, I should add:
1. I don't plan to major in math/science/engineering, so it is NOT essential that I take "Calculus in high school" (I mainly just don't want to waste time in pre-calc if Calc will get me college credit and be just a bit more work)</p>

<p>Tell me what you think. I really appreciate all responses to this long, drawn-out post. This is a very important decision that will affect me for the rest of the year, and CC's experience and insight is very important to me. </p>

<p>Also I feel that this is the best place to ask because <em>students</em> really know what goes on inside a class, and on AP tests. Teachers also want to make sure you have "all the prerequisites" because they NEVER want to RISK a kid failing - not to mention that they direct their comments at 98% of high-school students who are completely unmotivated, not realising that you are not one of them. E.g: You will never hear an AP Stats teacher say "Oh yeah, AP stats is really easy, you can self-study it yourself no problem", which you hear all the time on this board.</p>

<p>Thanks for reading guys,
Andre</p>

2

<p>u seem like u have the motivation. pre-calc is basically another name for trig & a few other stuff</p>

<p>AP calc would probably be pretty easy</p>

<p>definitely take AP calc & do not let anyone discourage you</p>

3

<p>Take AP calc! Trig and algebra are all you really need for calc ab. Given your motivation and work ethic, you can handle it.</p>

4

<p>Listen to me, I feel I understand your situation.
Precalculus is extremely important. You may "feel" you have a grasp over it but you probably truly dont. I would most definetly recommend you take Pre-Calc because if you go to Calc AB and you realized you screwed up bad and you dont belong in there... then not only are you screwed for that class but for the rest of your life because you dont have the neccessary foundation. I definetly dont want to put you down because I want you to achieve your full potential. Its hard being a "late-bloomer" because you realize how hard you have to work to get up to par with everyone and you feel its unfair but its really not. There is no WAY I can recommend you go to Calc AB if all you have is Algebra 1 + Geometry 1 under your belt. Thats 1 more year of HARD ass math work your missing. I know, at least at my school, Algebra 2 is like a new level of math, and pre calc is even a greater step-up. You are going to be challenged "to max" with just that. If you are going to succeed at Calculus not only do you need great natural math ability but extremely hard work and most importantly A SOLID BACKGROUND.
I hope this helps, message me if you want to talk more :)</p>

5

<p>Just a few thoughts: Your school makes you take both Trig/Analytic Geometry and Pre-calc? As far as I know Trig/Analytic Geometry = Precalc and from what you've seen in the textbooks, that seems to be the case. If you have the textbooks and some time before school starts (and if it really looks relatively easy to you), could you study the material and then test out of the class? If you can test out of Trig/Analytic Geometry, then I think Calc would be the next appropriate step. The only thing that seems concerning is the fact that you're also taking Algebra II this year. I'm surprised that Algebra II isn't a prereq for Trig/An.Geo (aka Pre-calc). Some of the concepts of algebra II (especially the different types of functions etc) are important in pre-calc and calculus.</p>

<p>My recommendation: Taking Trig/Analytic Geometry, Algebra II and Calculus at the same time does not sound like a good option. I don't want to sound pessimestic, but given the craziness of senior year, taking three math courses concurrently that are normally taken in sequence sounds excessive. If you can test out of pre-calc (or your school's equivalent Trig/Analytic Geometry classes), the Calculus sounds like a good option - the only thing that concerns me is that you have not already taken Algebra II. The other option I can think of is to self-study calculus. Take your normal classes in school the first semester and then in the spring, once college applications and everythign else is done with, evaluate your situation and see if you want to self-study the Calc AB material. Even though teachers may not give you a straight answer at first, I think that the best thing to do is talk to the calculus teacher. They have experience working with kids of all math background levels and will be able to give you a good recommendation of what will work best for you at your particular school</p>

6

<p>Wow - I've gotten some really good, earnest responses here. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to help me with this.</p>

<p>I should add that when I took Geometry, I actually DID NOT have Algebra I under my belt... my math training really ended at the beginnings of Pre-Algebra.</p>

<p>The only thing I really knew about Algebra when I got into highschool is you try to solve for an unknown quantity by balancing around an equals sign, e.g 3+x=5, so x=2. </p>

<p>That was it. And all I knew about Geometry was the Pythagorean theorem. </p>

<p>THAT WAS LITERALLY IT. </p>

<p>The only reason I didn't take Algebra I is because it would have set me SO far back, that I just decided to take a chance w/ Geometry. And while it was hard in the beginning, within a few weeks it had gotten so easy, I was leading the class discussions, helping my neighbors (most of whom were in "gifted" math programs their whole lives, although to be fair, they were younger than me) and bringing problems to class that the teacher often couldn't solve. I had a near-perfect score, and I felt like... you know, I learned a ton of stuff, but I really could've challenged myself even more. It actually felt too easy by the time it was over. (I started in regular and quickly moved to Honors, I should mention)</p>

<p>The X-Y Coordinate plane, graphing of parabolas, linear equations, quadratic equations, squaring of binomials, common binomial products (e.g (x+y)(x-y)=x^2-y^2), the quadratic formula, quadratic functions, factoring quadratics with leading coefficients equal to and greater than one, absolute values, the distributive, associative, and commutive properties, systems of equations, finding zeros, transformations of graphs, laws of exponents, meanings of common vocabulary like "identity", "roots", etc, FOIL, PEMDAS (I had never even heard of PEMDAS!), basic probability, rationalizing radical expressions... </p>

<p>ALL of this is material that I would've known if I had taken Algebra I and SHOULD have known to take Geometry, and it was COMPLETELY NEW to me. I picked it up along the way while in Geometry (with a lot of learned from SAT self-study -- infact, I learned how to square Binomials from Barron's How to Prepare for the SAT...) </p>

<p>I wanted to add my lack of background in Algebra to give you guys a better picture of the type of student I am. I don't freak out when a teacher says something I don't know -- I write it down, ask them, or go home and learn it. There's a huge amount of resources out there (mainly the internet) for mathematics study, and with 3 teachers to add to it, I don't think not getting a concept will be a problem. My main concern was: Is Calculus a field that is so highly dependent on extensive prior understanding of PRE-CALC, that concurrent study simply won't cut it. </p>

<p>So far, Pre-Calc does seem to = Trig. The prerequisite for AP Calc at my school is An.Geo/Trig, "AND/OR" Pre-Calc. And the prerequisite for Precalc alone is Algebra I, and Geometry I (which I have)-- </p>

<p>In contrast, the pre-requisite for Analytic Geometry and Trig is "Geometry and Algebra II." So I guess the An.Geo/Trig route is the more challenging route to Calculus, since the prerequisites are higher. Considering I am taking it, and it is just as valid for Calc entry as Pre-Calc, what's the point of Pre-Calc? Wouldn't it be redundent, especially since I'm taking it all contemporaneously? </p>

<p>I know that Algebra II is harder than Algebra I -- I've already looked at synthetic division, polynomial long division, the binomial theorem, pascal's triangle, etc, and it certainly is more advanced. But I don't see why I would have trouble picking it up, especially with a teacher to explain things and daily homework. None of it "looks Greek to me" or all that much harder than Alg1/Geo. </p>

<p>Also, I should mention that though it is my Senior year, I will not be spending time on college applications. I plan to focus on academics this year and maybe take a break to persue some EC interests before going to college. If I do apply to colleges this year, it will probably be in the second half of the year anyway, so I will have time to get on equal footing.</p>

<p>Also, the idea of self-studying for AP Calc from Pre-calc later in the year doesn't attract me too much; I self-studied two AP tests last year and got a 4 and 5, with practically no help and very little study - most of it was just extra homework and dedication to Honors level classes and homework assignments. While those good AP scores might seem like incentive to self-study I personally felt cheated-- here I was, achieving at a high AP level, having to work extra hard on my own, when there were probably unmotivated kids at my school being spoon-fed tons of instruction in AP classes and disregarding it. You can imagine how frustrating it felt when my Honors English teacher assigned a massive 200 point "Collage Project" (And no, there was NOTHING academically redeeming about it) just as I had to self-study for APs. It wasn't her fault; she was a great teacher; it's just the kind of stupidity they're forced to do in Honors classes to lift failing grades up. When I told her what a waste of time I thought the whole thing was, especially as I was studying for AP, she promptly agreed with me, and gave me a high grade on the project even though we both knew it was rushed and horribly done. She was an angel -- I couldn't ask for more. Still, it was not a scenario I would like to repeat again this year. </p>

<p>Anyway, I appreciate all responses. It really means a lot to me there is a community like this where I can go with these types of questions and get sincere responses. Please let me know what you think in light of what I've added.</p>

<p>Thanks again guys, I really appreciate it,
Andre</p>

7

<p>I recommend taking the calc. I was homeschooled and took Algebra at the local community college and self studied precalc over the summer then took calc the next fall, It's a decision I've always been happy with because I would have been wasting time in the precalc course. To be honest the first semester of calc only requires knowing functions and some trig.</p>

8

<p>Ok, I'd have to say Algebra is far more important than Geometry, especially for Calculus.</p>

<p>But the Calculus AB test is easy enough. I'd say that you should definitely KNOW trigonometry/pre-calculus (it was a combined course at my school) prior to taking it though. And yes trigonometry is very similar to pre-calculus. I'm unsure what the distinctions are.</p>

<p>I'd recommend you memorize the sin, cos, tan, sec, csc, etc. functions prior to entering calculus.</p>

<p>Why don't you try taking Calculus AB, and then drop it if you don't like it?</p>

<p>Actually, AP Statistics was more enjoyable to me than Calculus BC. It also seemed easier to me than Calculus BC. (Different students like different subjects.) If you don't like Calc, then try taking AP Statistics?</p>

9

<p>doing well on AP Calc is so easy. I took Calc BC in my junior year, and never paid attention all year (because I had ap chem the following period, and our chem teacher was an insane lady, so i was mostly doing chem hw in calc). Anyway, i thought I was doomed, but I just sat down and learned the entire year worth of calc in 2 days, and I still passed the exam with a 4 / 5 score. You can easily do this with your level of motivation for AP Calc AB. All u have to know for AB is basic function concepts....like what zeroes are....and what extrema are ( like maximums, minimums, etc), and if u know basic trig stuff, like what sin, cos, tan are, and if u have a good grasp on graphs of trig functions, then you'll be fine.</p>

10

<p>I agree with xerxes. Whether algebra II or trig are important on their own is one thing, but whether they are important for AP Calculus is another. Sure, you have to know what the trig functions are, but you don't need a course for that. I didn't try to be ahead math as I had so many other things going on, but I took Algebra II > Geometry > Pre-Calc > AP Calc AB. The first thing my teacher said in AP Calc was that there is no such thing as pre-calculus, and I have to agree given that my three previous courses were almost identical to each other. You really don't need much background for AP Calc AB in my opinion, its pretty concept heavy compared to other AP classes. </p>

<p>I know two people who refused to take Geometry AND Pre-Calc; they went from Algebra II > AP Calc AB > AP Calc BC > their choice senior year. I think this is the way it should be, except Algebra II+Geometry+Pre-Calc combined for freshmen year. I say take Calc and at least you will have an opportunity to catch up. I think you'll do fine.</p>

11

<p>Yikes - I think you are definitely biting off way too much!!! Although I confess I feel pre-calculus is a filler year course so that those who took Algebra I in 8th grade could have 4 years of h.s. math, I can't see how you could do well in Calculus not having a solid background in Algebra. In fact the kids I tutor struggle way more with the Algebra I concepts of factoring and simplifying polynomial expressions then they do the Calculus concepts! I can't imagine the school even letting you take three courses that all have pre-requisites! What you should have done was to take trig and pre-calculus at a hs or college this summer and then take AP Calculus as a stand alone. Wish you asked for advice in June!</p>

12

<p>So I went over to school today in hopes of switching in to AP Calc AB.
Both the dean and the school principal were encouraging and had no objections to me taking Calc AB.
Unfortunately, AP Calc was only available 2 periods and both of them conflict with important classes for me, so I couldn't take it. :(
When Calc AB didn't fit, my dean suggested that I might want to try Calc BC. I thought that was overdoing it. Xerxes, your post was certainly inspiring, as far as BC, but my guess is that if you learned BC Calculus all in 2 days, you are something of a math genius. I do not think I would be at all comfortable in BC w/o AB. </p>

<p>So, now I'm back to the original plan: w/ Pre-calc, Trig/An.Geo, and Alg II online. Of course, from a transcript point of view (and my dean pointed this out too) taking Pre-calc and Trig/An.Geo at the same time looks REDUNDANT; and in sreis's teacher's words "There is no such thing as precalc." I don't want an admissions officer to have the same opinion.</p>

<p>I will probably make up for this by self-studying the Calc AB test.. Since there's overlap in the homework between these classes I should have time to do Calc from the textbooks and prep books, and bring problems to my teachers if I have questions, etc.</p>

<p>Thanks to everybody who weighed in their opinion. You were all a big help.</p>

<p>Self-study, here I come!</p>

<p>Oh, and Zipzoopzabulous, I picked up AP Stats along the way; since the trig and and an. geo are half year and take up only 1 period, I had room for it -- I figured an AP level math can't hurt. I will still self-study the AB test.</p>

<p>Andre</p>

13

<p>So wait, you are taking 4 math classes in all, one AP, and THEN taking the AP Calc test? That is pretty crazy. That alone is harder than a lot of students' whole senior year, in one subject. Man, you must have really had an epiphany.</p>

14

<p>Yeah man, look take the Trig/analytic Geometry and precalc... if you do that you will build up a strong enough background...remember you aren't just planning to get into college, depending on what you plan to study, you may take Calculus in college... With Trig/Analytic Geometry/PreCalc you would have a great foundation...Plus Calc really isn't like a required course fro High School math, at my school the vast majority of honors level seniors take Honors PreCalc... it gives them that good background for College... Yeah going from Alg II/Trig to Calc AB is one thing, but you miss sooo much from Even Alg II if you just jump into Calc</p>

15

<p>I skipped Pre cal my self using a community college, then over the summer took an ACCELERATED AP CALC course and aced it. Draw your own conclusions</p>

16

<p>PreCalc. is not an in-depth course, and is quite easy. Besides trigonometry, you will usually cover vectors, sequences & series, and parametic equations.</p>

17

<p>Here's my story:</p>

<p>I took Algebra I in 8th grade, and then Plane Geometry in 9th grade. Then I got accepted to a private school, and I jumped straight to AP Calc BC in my sophmore year and I got a 5/5 on the AP. No trig, no Algebra II, no Precalc, but a 5/5 on the AP.</p>

<p>School officals may tell you that you aren't ready for AP Calc and need more prep, but they don't know you. You know you. From what I've read about you, I would highly encourage you to take the AP Calc. And why stop at AB? Take BC if you feel confident.</p>

18

<p>Even if you are lacking in some PreCalc. topics, you will definitely learn them later (be it single or multivariable calculus).</p>