<p>I'd like to request some advice about my sophomore son's math course for his upcoming junior year. He was not recommended for precalculus (the honors track at our rural public high school), but for "advanced math." He is now in Algebra II, regular level, and doing well. Math is not his strength; Geometry Honors as a freshman lowered his GPA. Still, I wonder, would he be better off to take the probable lower grade in a very challenging class, or the probably A in regular level math? We can insist that he be in the honors track, but I just don't know what's best for his college prospects. He is unlikely to major in a math-heavy field, needless to say!</p>
<p>What is the rest of his schedule going to look like? And what does your guidance office say? </p>
<p>Most often, of course, the response is that you should be putting together a schedule that will have the guidance office checking off the "most challenging" box when they're filling out their part of your child's applications. And indeed it is ** usually ** a better choice to take the harder class and a (potentially) lower grade, than the better grade in an easier class.</p>
<p>But it's always worth trying to evaluate just how much of a struggle a particular class is going to present to your kid. Junior year brings with it a lot of pressure, and if the tougher math class is going to be a constant source of real stress and anxiety (as opposed to hard work/challenge), then it might not be the best choice. If you get the feeling it will really make him start to fray at the edges, then let him show his strengths elsewhere.</p>
<p>I think it depends on what colleges he might be aiming for. The "top" ones want to see AP calc on the transcript. Otherwise, taking precalc senior year is probably fine.</p>
<p>But, LurkNess, I don't know that they want to see APCalc from a "lopsided" student, who is clearly going into the humanities, for instance; has outstanding schedule and grades in those fields. Don't know if that fits this student, but just mentioning that one-size-does-NOT-fit-all.</p>
<p>So, basically, I second Harriet~s question about what the rest of his schedule looks like and LurkNess~ question about what school(s) he is targeting for college.</p>
<p>jmmom, you may be right. But my understanding is that top colleges want the kids to challenge themselves. So even a humanities-focused student is expected to take calculus, for the challenge. At least, that's what I heard last year regarding one of the schools my daughter applied to. I'm sure exceptions are made, however.</p>
<p>I'm guessing from your name that you're from Massachusetts. So are we. It's likely the same standard curriculum. </p>
<p>I'll give you my perspective. My D is an excellent math student and is currently accelerated and taking precalculus as a sophomore at a public high school. She found Honors Geometry to be the hardest math class she's taken so far (also the one she's liked the best). Honors Algebra II and Honors Precalculus were much easier for her. </p>
<p>That said, your son may not have learned enough in regular Algebra II to go into Honors Precalc without some tutoring. Is it possible for him to try the Precalc and if it's not working out after a few months to drop back? I don't think it's worth him risking getting a C, but if he can hold his own at B or above, it may be worth trying. </p>
<p>Also, it depends what's covered in the other track. If it's just slower but gets to precalculus anyway so that he's prepared to take Calculus in college, I don't see anything wrong with that. Most good colleges require calculus. Some people just need a slower pace to get there. However, some people are steered into "math for business" or other tracks that don't lead to calculus. I would think that you want to try to avoid that. </p>
<p>I certainly wouldn't worry about that "most difficult" box if it's going to lead to frustration and C's. I think it's important to focus on the education not the college admissions process.</p>
<p>I don't know what your son's classes would be like, but my kids are at a similar stage - just finishing Algebra II. I looked at the precalculus book, and, as far as I can tell, a lot of the topics are ones they've already covered in Algebra II. That's fine with me, because I think my kids could use the review, and if they cover the topics in greater depth, that's even better. However, I'm not expecting next year to present my kids with too much of a jump in difficulty level, whereas I think they'd have a much tougher time going straight to calculus (though for a motivated kid at the same level, that looked like a reasonable option to me as well). I'm having trouble imagining what your son would cover in "advanced math."</p>
<p>Thanks to all for thoughtful replies. Son's junior lineup: Spanish 4 Honors, Chemistry Honors, English Honors, AP U.S. History (one of few AP offered), Drama/Psychology (semester courses). So GC could check most challenging on all but math. Son did try in Geometry Honors and earned a C. Seems to me (an English major) that the math honors classes are exponentially (ha!) harder; only 10 or so kids of 120 take them. GC prefers he follow teacher rec, said he could take precalc next summer at a college, then calc as a senior. I cannot imagine him ever attempting AP Calc, but maybe that's my own math ignorance. If we do demand precalc, might not be possible to drop, given schedule inflexibility. He has so far expressed interest in big city schools like Emerson, Boston College, NYU. Would they insist on "most challenging" math?</p>
<p>At our school pre-calc, is a relatively easy course. Many kids took it in summer school in order to get ahead in the curriculum. But every school is different. I think if you can anticipate a B in pre-calc vs. an A in advanced math (whatever that is) he's better off in pre-calc. However if it's a C you're looking at, I'd go with the easier course. If he's willing to take pre-calc as a summer course (and you don't have better plans - such as work), that might be a viable alternative which would put him in the same place.</p>
<p>My two cents...math is simular to taking a foreign language class. Learning is predicated on mastering the previous material. You may wish to meet with his teacher and get feedback as to why she/he recommended the class they did. By taking advanced math, then pre-calc, then calculus in college, he will be more likely excel.</p>
<p>Thanks APOL. The teacher recommended the class simply because that is the the school's system. He has a strong A in Advanced Math right now, but having floundered in the freshman honors math class, he is not on the honors track any longer. We must buck the system to return him to that, which raises the stakes if he DOESN'T do well. </p>
<p>Forgot to mention--we do have a faithful tutor. But seems to me, she can do only so much...</p>
<p>DS took Honors Geometry, Honors Algebra II, then bailed out on Hon Pre-Calc and took Algebra III/Trig his jr year, and Intro to Calc his sr year (yes, we are also in Mass). He was admitted to very selective schools. He took the intro level Calculus last fall in college and did fine. His reason for bailing out of honors was that although he thought he could handle Pre-Calc by itself, piling that on top of all his other honors/AP classes seemed like too much to handle. </p>
<p>I'd say consider 2 things:
1) Does your son know what he wants to major in or have a career idea? If he wants science or engineering, he may need the Pre-Calc. It would help him be admitted for those majors, and show him if he can cut it in those fields or not. If he's not interested in those, then continuing on the non-honors track is probably fine. Once you get past Algebra II, all the math work is pretty advanced and probably considered "challenging" by Emerson, etc. My son knew he wanted liberal arts, so he didn't really need to kill himself in pre-calc.</p>
<p>2) Who else takes Pre-Calc in your hs? In our hs, it was the brilliant, science-oriented kids. They were DS's friends, and were also in his other honors classes, but he knew they picked up math faster than he did.</p>
<p>BTW, DD is now struggling to hold a C in honors Algebra II. This is definitely the last year of honors math for her, but she is very artistic and I don't expect her to major in anything math/science oriented, so I am looking forward to her "backing down" to Algebra III instead of Honors Pre-Calc next year!</p>
<p>if he has an A in Algebra II he should do fine in precalc. However I do wonder, what is in the "advanced math" course. Is it just precalc but easier, or what?</p>
<p>I have twin Ds one is taking precalc this, her Junior year, the other a class called Math Analysis which is a midway step between AlgII and precalc. Both are thriving in math this year. This has NEVER happened before. I don't think historygirl in math analysis would be doing as well or getting half as much out of precalc as she is out of her current placement where she actually likes math for the first time. </p>
<p>My point is that your son, like my d, has not been recommended for pre calc for a reason. I would advise you to take the class that is more at his level right now so that he can take precalc as a Sr. and thrive. </p>
<p>Math is one of those things that people "get" at different rates and in either course he is still taking a higher level math. If all of your son's other classes show that he is challenging himself and he doesn't take calc in high school it's not a big deal. His ability to not feel out of his depth and frustrated for a year by coursework he's not quite fully understanding is a big deal. </p>
<p>In many high schools Jr. year brings a lot of frustrations as students adapt to a far more rigorous courseload and higher teacher expectations. I was so happy to not have math be a source of angst for either of my girls and they both will still get the check in the "most rigorous" box. We still had tears, nights up till 3:00 a.m. and one bout of stress realted stomach trouble, but it was not related to math.</p>
<p>Prism: Here is school's description for Advanced Math: "This college prep level course is designed to further develop a student’s geometric, algebraic, and problem-solving skills. Students will first study the functions of trigonometry and their applications. In addition, students will enhance their algebraic skills through an exploration of functions, graph and recursion theories, and elements of discrete math.
HistoryMom: How could both the math classes count as "most rigorous"?
I share your view about reducing anxiety and stress.</p>
<p>I didn't mean that the classes were equally rigorous they aren't. I meant that according to my understanding, at our HS it is the overall rigor that is assessed and if a student has taken the highest level of classes in every other respect, the fact that he/she ran out of time to take APcalc because of taking a "bridge" class like Math Analysis jr. year to strengthen skills prior to taking precalc Sr. year would not count against them as far as rigor is concerned. The student still took a step up the mathematical ladder and the "most rigorous" box could still be checked.</p>
<p>It may be worth a conversation with your GC. But what I think is the most important thing for kids to do as far as college admissions is concerned is to continue to challenge themselves all four years by taking increasingly difficult coursework.</p>
<p>The class sounds ok and isn't dumbed down math. It has some precalculus in it. Also, some of the discrete math topics (graphs and recursion) are not in the normal precalculus curriculum, so these are above and beyond what the honors kids see. What is the description for the class that follows this class? Does it complete precalculus (does it look a lot like the topics in honors precalculus)? I suspect it does, and if that's the case, I think this may well be the best way to go. </p>
<p>In a sense, instead of a precalculus-calculus track, they would be slowing precalculus down to maybe 1.5 years. However, there is not enough precalculus content to spread over two years, so they've added the discrete math component. It could be very good. </p>
<p>As I said, I wouldn't worry about the "most rigorous" box. Your son needs to learn math at a pace he's comfortable with. As someone else said, math is cumulative, so it's really important to learn it well. He would also get to calculus this way too, and probably be better prepared for it.</p>
<p>Thanks again, all. I think we will stick with the Advanced Math. I noticed in the school catalog that in two years, they will change its name to Precalculus, College Prep level. Figures!</p>