Maybe. I do think that English, history, and foreign languages have far more choices than math. This is even better today than it was when I went to hs. Math is linear so you have to do one thing to move to the next step. There’s a little wiggle room ( trig, stats) but you can’t start Calc without learning Pre-Calc. Some schools also leave a lot of room in science. So some will do Earth science, Environmental etc. And the rest will do what I imagine is more of the basics ( bio, chem and physics). Some kids double up in some subjects at the expense of another subject.
I think some schools offer more flexibility than others. Some have half-year courses and kids can mix and match. But for kids who hope to gain entrance to the top 20, I do think they are limited once they fill in the basics, there isn’t much room for other things. I’d bet that most kids gunning for the top schools have about 75-85% of the same classes.
To graduate high school, most districts have required 4 years of English for several decades, and the only real question is whether a student has been on the remedial, standard, or honors/AP track.
Foreign language wasn’t considered nearly as central to getting into a “good college” (whatever that actually means) when I was in high school in the 80s, though it was certainly thought of as a more “academic” elective than, say, art or wood shop.
HS graduation requirements for decades have most usually been three years with at least one of those being bio; earth science, bio, and chem or physics seems a widespread model, alongside bio, chem, and physics. The option has long been around for a student to take a second year of one of those as an advanced or AP class, of course, but there’s less flexibility with science, and you don’t really get offered as much opportunity acceleration in science the way you do with math (which means it’s less gameable).
And social studies has long had requirements that vary wildly by state (and even by district). When I came through in the 80s my district only required two years of social studies, and I was more than happy to be done with it at that point (even though that meant I passed on all the AP offerings). Ended up getting into a couple hypercompetitive (for the 80s) colleges with that record, so I’m going to suggest that at least for most cases, social studies hasn’t always been important for college admissions.
(Nowadays, of course, a student applying to a competitive college without—assuming their high school offers them—APUSH or at least AP World? Seems kind of off. But has it always been thus? Nah, I don’t see it.)
This was my experience in the inverse. I stopped lab science after taking honors bio and chemistry (so only 2 years total) and only got to pre-calculus in math. I did take APUSH and AP literature (which were some of the only AP’s available - and only for seniors). This didn’t keep me from being accepted to some competitive colleges, but it wouldn’t pass muster today.
When I went to high school, the options were like this:
English: linear, only choices were regular versus honors (honors 12th grade was AP).
Math: linear, only choices were regular versus honors and whether the student was +0 or +1 tracked, with +1 track leading to AP calculus BC. No statistics back then.
Foreign language: choice of language, but then it was linear up to the desired level (level 4 was AP). Some students were on the +1 track due to starting in middle school.
Science: general 9th grade science, biology, chemistry, physics. Stronger students skipped the general 9th grade science. Physics offered two options, for non-future-science majors and for future-science majors.
History and social studies: US history (AP optional) and civics were required; there was also a 9th grade semi-elective of some kind of world studies; various other courses were available.
Art: various options.
Other: required health and PE, other electives like auto shop, etc.
In other words, four of the main college-prep subject categories were typically taken in linear progression (even though science did not have to be, it almost always was). History and social studies were somewhat restricted as well. But most students aiming for four year colleges (about a third of the high school) were taking relatively similar schedules.
Mine was pretty similar but history 4 years was required and so was art. Today, the options seem better. More choices and more levels.
It’s hard for me to compare as my kids attend a top BS. So, it’s very different than my/my spouses experience. In general, there are many more levels ( they can accommodate math kids up to 5 years ahead of normal program and about 3-4 year ahead in science, I don’t know what they do with super advanced English kids beyond AP levels from Soph year on. But, I did think there would be more time for electives. Once you fit in the basic subjects there’s no time for fun stuff beyond a course here and there.
I’m not complaining but my kid is. S/he was told by GC that not all AP Science classes are adequate. Some are considered more rigorous than others. Likewise English. Taking some courses as opposed to the most rigorous might hurt chances at top schools.
This is an interesting thread to read. Tbh I didn’t know there was an ‘accelerated math track’ I just thought there were mathy kids. Ds was homeschooled through 8th grade (AoPs and various other innovative math courses via homeschool groups) and continued to learn from home via a reputable online school for high school. He’s a senior now. He took algebra in his freshman year, pre-calc in his sophomore year, calc in his junior year and this year is taking linear algebra and differential equations, apparently these are college-level math.
The thing is he just loves math so much so that he’s choosing it as one half of his double degree. As a non-mathy mom I think, how cool is that, that he just loves math innately. I remember him coming to me at about age 5 or 6 after he’d discovered Pi and how totally excited he was by this series of numbers, his joy was palpable. While I couldn’t understand his excitement, I mean it’s a number sequence right I could see his natural excitement and enthusiasm and so that’s what I went with.
I guess my unsolicited advice would be to let your dc love math in an uncomplicated way, trust their passion for it, see where it leads them on its own, and don’t get too drawn into all the acceleration hype (math or other). And also let them not love it if it’s not their jam, this will allow them the space for other loves to emerge and develop. Natural passion will always find its way to a source, if the source doesn’t find it first.
This thread is not really about your kid, who loves math and is very good at it, so being on the +2 track may be just right for him and where he “naturally” landed in the course of his schooling.
It is quite possible that the math-fearful students are those who would “naturally” have been on the +0 or +1 tracks but were pushed by parents (or maybe peer pressure) to get on the +2 or higher track that they were not really ready or suited for.
Well, the fact that I’m not really sure what +0 +1 or +2 tracks refer to suggests that I probably shouldn’t have responded to this thread in the first place lol. Like I said, I found it interesting from a personal standpoint given my lack of awareness that there were tracks. My post is compostable. Points taken re your second paragraph.
This is a rather delightful sentiment, but I’d alter it in one significant way (which you may well have intended anyway): Both places where you write math, I’d replace it with the names of every subject (academic or otherwise) offered in high school (and beyond, really).
I do wonder if more people (read: parents and educators) backed off a bit and took that approach, offering general guidance instead of “fighting for your child” and insisting on a particular level of advanced work on the timetable the parents want, perhaps we wouldn’t have as much of the math fear mentioned in the thread title, plus less writing fear, less science fear, less art fear, less…
But @ucbalumnus that’s your reference point only. It varies from state to state. Folks keep expressing this when they describe their kids math paths. I’m not sure how anyone’s particular reference point for what they think the “normal” math track is can’t be considered a variable.
For example, your chart above doesn’t match my kids’ high schools. And it matches (partially) only one of two public schools I’m familiar with.
Yep, I’d agree. When parents support their kids and know when the kid is working at the right level, things fall into place. Kids who are stretched too much often lack confidence and kids who are stretched too little are often bored. Finding your interests is so important. And as parents, it’s hard not to impose our views about what is best.
Which state has a standard college prep math track that is equivalent to the +1 or higher track listed above? (statewide for public schools, not one specific school)
The flip side of what you asked, but I’ll note that some school districts have a standard math track that might be described as equivalent to a “-1” track under your classification, particularly in very rural districts, where locally-offered courses may cap out at calculus (or, perhaps, even precalc).
Among states that have statewide math requirements for high school graduation (most of them, but there are a few exceptions where requirements are set at the local level, e.g., Massachusetts), they require a minimum of 2 (very few, but including California), 3, or 4 years of math. Not all of them specify a minimum level of math to take, but among those that do, most require the student to have taken at least algebra I (some specify geometry). This means that it would be possible for a student to graduate high school in some states with what you would presumably call a -3 track, though I suppose in such a case there would probably be an IEP involved, since we’re looking at progression significantly below grade level, no matter the “normal” sequence.
Now that you bring that up, there was a -1 track when I went to high school, where (a small number of) students took algebra 1 over two years (9th and 10th grade), although they then had to follow with regular geometry. A student on such a track would reach algebra 2 at most if they took math every year.
According to https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/unequal-access-calculus-could-hinder-low-income-and-black-students , about 86% of high school students attend a high school that offers calculus, meaning that 14% do not have access to a calculus course in their high schools. Black students, students in rural areas, and students in high free-or-reduced-price lunch schools have less likely to attend high schools that offer calculus, although all of the listed groups of students had at least 73% attending high schools that offer calculus.
Note that there is also a commonly cited statement that “half of high schools do not offer calculus”, but that probably includes small schools with low performing students (e.g. continuation or reform schools, juvenile hall schools, etc.) or small specialty (non-math/science) schools, which may make up a lot of schools but not a lot of students.
Well I don’t know each statewide track. I only know schools. But everyone on this thread has different tracks. From my reading very few have been the same. I think many might be based on the SES level or size of school or what have you. My point is, you cannot put them all in the same framework unless they are the same.
And, I can even comment to say that a local day school, BS and public school were all different.
Yep, we are in MA and our experience has been they are all different. Probably, based on the local board. I would also say that aside from technical/vocational schools (which I have limited knowledge of), nearly every high school requires 4 years of math.
I could see his natural excitement and enthusiasm and so that’s what I went with.