I friend asked advice about a son who is a freshman planning to study engineering at a university with about 1150 average SATs old system. He was placed in precalculus, but failed it and is retaking it. I realize that introductory math classes are graded hard. However, I was concerned that he will need to take 4 more advanced math classes and 5 physics classes. Also, engineering classes are fairly mathematical. Is this something he may be able to get through, or should he consider a different major?
Someone sent me PM indicating that failing Precalculus didn’t look good for engineering, which is what I suspected. I thought about it, and I will offer to tutor the kid to get him through Precalculus and I will also make an evaluation as to whether he can handle the math for engineering.
No offense, but if you had to ask a forum if failing precalculus was a bad sign for engineering, I’m not sure if you are qualified to judge if that’s still true after tutoring this student.
I will evaluate what his math level is and whether it can be improved so that he can handle engineering requirements.
Is he already in college? I’m confused.
He had precalculus in high school, probably not honors. He was placed in precalculus based on a test and failed it freshmen year in college. I know it doesn’t look good, but it is sort of a sensitive situation as it is a relative and I wanted to be sure before saying anything negative.
My father dropped out of engineering after failing second semester freshman physics at a tough school. I figured failing precalculus was a lot worse.
Even having to (re)take pre-calculus in college is a bad omen for engineering. An SAT score of 1150 is also nothing to write home about. Engineering is a tough major. Many students with better backgrounds have problems with the workload.
If he is truly interested in engineering, then working as a technician / draftsperson might be a better first step. That would be more along the lines of 2 year technical / trade school. Get doing something that he can handle and be successful at. Then, once he gets a feel for the field, he can decide to continue as is or go for the BS in engineering, maybe even starting with some night classes to see how he does.
I don’t know what his average SATs are. The average for the school is 1150. He is expected to finish college and get a professional job, so taking a job as a technician is out.
How advanced a student is in math and how well they do are a couple of the very best predictors on how successful a student will be in engineering. This feels like trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. My guess, based on your last comment, is that it’s undergirded by cultural based, family pressure.
Typically engineering students I’ve known about started in with Calculus (either taking it first time, or re-take after AP calc in high schools). I’ve not heard about many students who start in pre-calc. Admittedly this could vary by state high school math requirements and individual high school course availability.
To me, failing pre-calc honestly does seem a red flag. If our son does stick with it, know that college is going to take at least 5 years due to the rigid course sequencing in engineering programs. If math does not come easily, it’s going to be an uphill battle.
Note - My comments are based on relevant experiences and knowledge. I am an engineer (married to an engineer, with many engineering coworkers and friends). Also I’m mom of one engineer and one very bright kid that started in engineering and switched. In recent years, I’ve also learned more about current engineering students and programs via these forums.
Most likely the school requires the ALEKS test (most do unless you score above a certain level on the SAT or ACT). Based on that score he was placed in pre Calc rather than Calc 1. Since he failed pre-Calc in my opinion he should evaluate very hard why. If it was laziness then he needs to determine if he can change that. If he can’t grasp the math then he may want to consider a less math intensive major because he is already at least a year behind in math as well as physics since engineering physics requires calculus. To me for this young person to continue in engineering is going to make for a very miserable student.
Most engineering degree programs assume that the entering frosh student is ready for calculus 1 in the first semester. Starting in precalculus makes it very likely that graduation will be delayed by a semester, since calculus 1 typically starts a number of important prerequisite sequences. Failing and having to retake precalculus is a worse sign, since math is commonly used in engineering courses and their physics prerequisites.
Add in the fact that math is such an integral part of Physics and this is not a good sign at all.
What type of engineering is he thinking of and is he direct admit into it?
My son is a decent but not outstanding math student and felt like the first 4-5 semesters they were trying to flunk them out of the engineering school. Lots of pressure to just make it through
He wants to study civil engineering, which I heard is relatively easy (no offense). He hasn’t been accepted into anything but the school. I gather if you are placed in precalculus, it is hard to finish engineering in 4 years, as the classes depend on calculus. Obviously, failing precalculus is worse. I don’t know much about this sort of thing, as my degree is in math, and where I went there was no placement test, and any engineering major started at Calculus I or higher.
I was sort of taken aback when I was asked about it, as it didn’t sound good. The kid is probably under pressure and should switch to something he can be successful in.
A lot of engineering students took some level of calculus in HS, starting college in pre-calc would be unusual. I’d be surprised if many/any engineering schools admitted him if he hadn’t taken a minimum of pre-calc successfully in HS? That means his last HS math was Trig or something like that? And I’m guessing then that he didn’t take HS Physics? I feel for him, this major doesn’t seem like a good fit
Regardless of where one places Civil on the semi-contrived engineering difficulty scale, no engineering is easy. Nearly all of the Civil Engineering curriculum will be harder than pre-calculus.
All types of engineering are going to need at least 4 semesters for calc. A lot of students have trouble getting through engineering (or any type) in 4 years… even when starting with Calc1.
@sattut - You son’s best advise will come from his advisor on campus. In this big group group we have an assortment of kids who have studied a variety of majors . If you tell us a bit of about his strengths and interests, perhaps we can add some thoughts too.
It’s challenging to graduate with an engineering degree in 4 years starting out in Calc I and passing everything. The number of courses and rigid pre-requisites make scheduling a challenge. And yes, many other courses will be dependent on Calculus. Regardless of how “easy” Civil Engineering may be seen as (because, after all, who cares if the civil engineer correctly does the calculations for a bridge that you drive over every day), it still requires a certain level of mastery this student has not demonstrated they can achieve.
I would strongly encourage serious discussion about the best major for the student. Why engineering? Is it the desire of the student, or is it the desire of the parents (so many push students into engineering these days based on ROI rather than where the student is likely to succeed). If the student truly wants to be an engineer, it’s going to be a long hard road that will require more than 5 years. There are many courses he won’t be able to get into without first mastering calculus.
I was a civil engineering student. It wasn’t a cake walk. And you still have to take classes like basic electrical circuits and thermodynamics, which were really challenging for me. I really think your son needs to rethink his major if he didn’t pass pre-calc in college.
How are you going to evaluate whether your friend’s son can handle the math for engineering? What criteria are you going to use?
Failing precalc is something to be concerned about, but it is not necessarily a reason for the student to reconsider engineering. There could be many problems. For example, may not have developed the study skills to get (at least) decent grades at a university. Also, how well other students did in this class should be taken into account. If most students are having problems, it could be because the professor has made the class difficult.