Math major attrition data

Parents Forum
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But as you know, high schools nowadays push, in fact practically bludgeon, students into taking AP-Calc whether or not they are prospective math/science majors.

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<p>Indeed, but some of these students didn't really learn much of anything in those AP-calc classes they were forced to take (sometimes taught by teachers who are not very well prepared, given the shortage of appropriately trained math teachers.)</p>

<p>And sometimes, they decide to retake calculus in college (perhaps because it's a requirement for their major or premed or whatever) and they get exposed to a whole different side of math from a really charismatic, enthusiastic math instructor.</p>

<p>But you are certainly right that such a student would not have written on his application that he was a prospective math major before he got to college.</p>

<p>I'm just thinking of people I personally know who only became prospective math majors while taking courses like Math 1. I would still characterize them as "prospective" because they wouldn't have actually declared a major at that point, but they might be seriously considering it. I bet it regularly happens at Smith, Williams, and other colleges with great first-year calculus professors.</p>

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What I'd read about P-ton was anecdotal and I have no way to confirm or disprove what I'd read. But the questions lingered in my mind, which prompted me to ask the resident experts here about their experiences and resources.

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DS is a sophomore at Pton; next year his name will probably appear on the list of Math majors (along with Cookieson) - but he definitely did not declare anything when he was an incoming freshman - the closest thing he did was probably listing Math as one of his possible majors on the admission application (he also listed Physics, CS and who knows what else). I can believe that 15% of incoming freshmen listed Math as **one of **their prospective majors, but this does not mean that all who did not major in Math were "weeded".</p>

<p>One can't really tell much by the number of students in any particular class, either: for example, DS had someone from Mechanical Engineering in his Abstract Algebra class, who was taking the class just for fun. </p>

<p>I do not think there are any "weeder" classes in Princeton, but maybe I just do not know about them. But anyway, it does not seem to me that such courses are the main reason why some students do not major in Math. Some better reasons were already mentioned in this thread, for one - pinpointing the area of interest more exactly than the generic "Math" . </p>

<p>DS actually was not certain what major to choose (that's why I wrote that his name will "probably" appear, he still can change his mind). If Princeton allowed multiple majors, DS would probably ended up with a triple Math/Physics/Computer Science - but as it is, he is planning to declare Math major by the end of this year.</p>

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-- are there various tracks for people coming in with different levels of preparation? (recognizing that many schools will be more flexible than their website states)

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Yes. Actually, the Math department at Princeton is extremely flexible, and DS never had a problem when he wanted to take a class for which he did not have formal prerequisites.</p>

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-- does the math dept. permit undergrads to do research?

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Yes. I just saw a flyer recruiting the students for (paid) summer research.</p>

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-- how many folks are declared majors at the end of sophomore year (by which time one would probably have a sense of being able to cut it or not) and how many graduate in that major?

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As cookiemom mentioned, right now Princeton has the equal number of juniors and seniors in Math department. I do not know about actual graduation, but given Pton's high graduation rate, I find it highly unlikely that any of the seniors will drop out.</p>

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-- % of double majors

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Zero. Unfortunately.
Well, they say (here at CC) that a "certificate" in Princeton is more than a "minor" somewhere else - but I don't know... it still is not a second major.</p>

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<p>the princeton math program is very flexible when it comes to prior preparation. My friend (who is currently a math major) did not initially want to be a math/physics major when she came to princeton (was actually thinking about english) and didn't take a math class first semester. She only took the normal multivariable class (that all the engineers take) in her second semester of freshman year, and is now a math major. The professors also seem very approachable as its a small department. Finally, there is definitely a chance for research as there are two junior papers and one senior thesis that every math major at princeton has to write.</p>

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<p>I'm a freshman at Princeton thinking of a math major so maybe I can offer my perspective. </p>

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I do not think there are any "weeder" classes in Princeton, but maybe I just do not know about them. But anyway, it does not seem to me that such courses are the main reason why some students do not major in Math. Some better reasons were already mentioned in this thread, for one - pinpointing the area of interest more exactly than the generic "Math" .

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<p>Freshmen with an interest in math and strong but not exceptional backgrounds tend to be encouraged to take Math 215, an introductory analysis course. While the professor is great and there's plenty of help available, it does represent something of a baptism by fire for those who haven't done much with proofs before. Of the 100 or so people who started the course, perhaps 30 dropped it by the midterm and another 20 took an easier math course the next term.</p>

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<p>Countingdown:</p>

<p>S did not take part in competitions. He was not the kind. Nor was/is he star material.<br>
I think that most math programs are collaborative. Study groups are highly encouraged from the beginning. This is true also of physics. S is currently in two study groups. There are also sections, which are more formal affairs, and Course Assistants (undergraduate teaching assistants) hold office hours where students can come for further help. </p>

<p>As for weed-out courses, I don't think there are truly such courses. Students sign up for more advanced versions of a particular course then drop down a level, or even two, when they realize how tough the course is. For example, last fall, Math 55 had over 50 shoppers. By Week 3 it had about half and when the class finally settled down, it had 21-2. Some of the shoppers just wanted to see what that infamous class was like, others were more serious. The serious ones dropped down to Math 25. Some early enrollees in Math 25 dropped down to Math 23. By the time Math 25 stabilized it had about 40 students. </p>

<p>Harvard used to require students to declare a concentration at the end of freshman year; beginning this year, students will be declaring at the end of sophomore year, making it a bit easier to compare numbers with other universities. </p>

<p>For what it's worth, here are some programs that S's friends from his summer program are currently in as math majors:
P'ton; Chicago; Cornell; Duke; MIT; Stanford; Caltech; Harvey Mudd. </p>

<p>Cookiemom: It's the wonders of google!</p>

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<p>I have to say, this has been an amazingly informative thread -- really an example of the benefits of a forum like this.</p>

<p>The only thing I have to add for CountingDown is the observation that there is a lot less difference between the "feel" of LACs and the smaller, prestigious research universities like Princeton, Chicago, MIT, and even Harvard, than people sometimes pretend. And those schools offer pretty good liberal arts educations, too, as well as perhaps more critical mass in math faculty and students than most LACs (although Mudd might be an exception, obviously). Anyway, if your son is as you describe, I would encourage him to give those schools a look as well (especially Chicago, which has a lot of math geeks with imperfect resumes).</p>

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<p>DS's current list consists of Mudd, Chicago, MIT, UMD, Caltech, Michigan and CMU. Finding LACs with enough math for him is an issue, and we've been trying to (ever so gently) point out that a smaller university may be a better fit for what he wants. At some schools, the theoretical CS is in the math dept.; other places, it's in CS. Mudd has the depth in math, the LAC component through the consortium, and the ratio through Pomona and Scripps. ;) Chicago has the math and the liberal arts side, a good ratio, and he came home saying, "I could see myself spending four years here." He visited during the January snowstorm that was raging during the playoffs. Note that Chicago winters vs. LA winters do not seem to figure into his calculation!</p>

<p>DS has not wanted to look at Ivies, but I think he should visit Cookieson and Harvard nevertheless to see things for himself. Stanford did not give him warm fuzzies at all; his summer program colleagues advised against Berkeley for UG.</p>

<p>At the flagship I attended, there were math courses that were well-known as weeders for potential math and CS majors. UMD says their Analysis I course is the big mountain to climb in their program. DH felt that Math 241 was a weeder course at Penn. I'm relieved to hear that other top programs aren't as cutthroat as I'd feared.</p>

<p>JHS: Could you define an "imperfect resume?"</p>

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<p>"imperfect resume" = high school transcript with more than a couple Bs on it (assuming, as with all elitist schools, that there are ample indications of passion in some field and broad intellectual curiosity)</p>

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<p>CountingDown, has your math/CS-oriented son checked out Cornell? </p>

<p>Yes, it's my alma mater. Yes, I plug it everywhere. But it might actually be an appropriate choice for your DS1. Good math department (my husband got his PhD there). Even better computer science department -- and you can major in CS in either the college of arts and sciences or the college of engineering, which allows considerable flexibility. Very easy to combine interests in CS and math (take a look at the math major options). </p>

<p>Half the students at Cornell are women, which is something you're not going to find at an exclusively technical school. Great campus. Terrible weather (but hey, your son liked Chicago). Cornell is the least Ivy-like of the Ivies (how Ivy can you be when more than half of your students are majoring in fields other than the liberal arts?). And travel is not as hard as you think (there's an unofficial charter bus that runs between Ithaca and Bethesda at each Cornell break).</p>

<p>Most important, it's easier to get into than MIT. Everybody needs a good second-choice school.</p>

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<p>JHS,<br>
OK, DS qualifies -- though his resume looks a LOT more impressive than mine was at his age! :)</p>

<p>Marian -- Actually, I was looking at the Cornell site the other day at CS and math. We are still trying to decide on the Spring Break driving route!</p>

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<p>This is a good thread. . .much of what has been said is true. As a double major in math and econ, it's good to read up. . .</p>

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<p>We were also told that Berkeley is really a "graduate shop" -- by a Berkeley math prof. </p>

<p>Chicago does sound like a good fit for your S, though I don't know anything about its CS department. When you mentioned CS I had a completely different thought: a friend my S did math with for years, who is a CS major at Brown and adores it. Brown's better in applied math than theoretical math, but also very good in CS and closer to an LAC on the "warm and fuzzy" meter, yet welcoming to all kinds of kids including geeks. It's the opposite of Chicago in terms of curriculum, which allows for a lot of exploring. Given his sudden joy in discovering he liked proofs as much or more than he liked CS, exploring might lead him to discover he likes something else even more!</p>

<p>(neobez -- S is a math-econ major, though still clinging to some physics as well)</p>

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<p>I agree on Brown for someone who likes applied math. S found the profs very welcoming and the students were the happiest he'd met. If only it had been more pure math, he'd have applied there in a jiffy.</p>

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<p>marite -- do you know whether they're expanding in that direction? A grad student my S's gotten to know is headed to a three-year teaching gig as an assistant math prof at Brown next year. Brilliant guy, and supposedly great teacher, who did math undergrad at Princeton, PhD at Columbia while playing saxophone all over NYC and Europe. </p>

<p>I also wonder whether there is more overlap these days than in the past between pure and applied math. Looking at research groups in the math department at Columbia, there is one involved with financial mathematics, and another involved with physics. Yet, this is the math department, not applied math, which is in the engineering college. S's number theory prof has gone off to DE Shaw and the algebra prof co-founded a cryptography company. Oh, where are the purists of yesteryear?</p>

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<p>Sac, I'm sure that Brown has some pure math profs. I don't know, however, if it is trying to expand in that direction at all. I'm not sure that math depts are in an expansionist mode. </p>

<p>New Ph.D.s seem to get appointed for three years at top schools then have to go on the job market again. Harvard's math department has no associate prof, unlike other depts. So it's hard to detect trends from new hires.</p>

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<p>I haven't seen weedout courses per se at Stanford. We have our 50H series, which is sort of a less intense version of Math 55, but plenty of math majors take the regular 50 series instead. (You can't do an honors math major that way, though.) It's also one of the most flexible departments at the school. There are pretty much no prerequisites in the math department, nor are there really any solid requirements to get a math major.</p>

<p>And I, for one, have been extremely impressed with most or all of my professors. They speak great English, they have good social skills (one story I like to tell is of how we'd go to one prof's office hours just to hang out with him), etc etc.</p>

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<p>Marite, could you please explain more about "collaboration" that goes on in math and physics. My son loves both - at the theoretical level - but wonders about the isolation. </p>

<p>What about at the PhD level? Does you son see most of the professors in their offices working independently or with others?</p>

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<p>to the OP-- agree about Cornell. My math kid found both the Engineering school math route and the Arts and Sciences math route extremely appealing.... plenty of flexibility. He ended up at MIT but Cornell would have been a wonderful choice for him.</p>

<p>I think all the statistics are a little misleading. Almost all of my son's friends at MIT who ended up majoring in something else had virtually all of the requirements to be "math majors"-- they just didn't fill out the form to get it declared on the degree. Some did a minor in math; some did a double major, some didn't include math officially at all but had tons of it. For the kids in Engineering it was pretty irrelevant... they were heading off to either grad programs where it was assumed that they'd have tons of math (and they did) or to jobs at Google or Intel or IBM where the same assumption was made. </p>

<p>So at the technical schools, virtually everyone is a "math major" whether they end up in the math department or not. I think the question is around how much support the school and department give kids who want to do something after college which isn't become a PhD in math-- that's where the feel of the department comes into play. Our experience has been that dozens of kids go off to college thinking they'll end up in a doctorate program.... the reality is that life intervenes-- some kids need to start earning money sooner, some kids are burnt out and need a break; other kids decide they want professional school instead. I think that being a math major is superb preparation for all of these things, you just want your kid in a department where the advising and professors support all of these decisions assuming they're right for your kid.</p>

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<p>Chipper:</p>

<p>I don't know what happens at the Ph.D. level. </p>

<p>When S was wondering whether to apply to MIT (where he has many friends) or to Harvard, one of his MIT friends commented on how easy it was to form impromptu study groups just by going out of one's room and walking down the hall. That's not surprising since MIT students are likely to take the same courses. It takes a bit more effort making up a study group at Harvard, where the student body is far more diverse in its interests, though S's study groups include friends living in adjacent Houses.</p>

<p>In every math and physics class my S has taken, students are encouraged to form study groups. They have weekly problem sets; the students work on their own on the problem sets, then meet to go over their partial solutions, discuss more elegant ways to prove things, etc.. then go back and write their own answers to the problem sets. This is the way profs suggest it should be done, and this is how S has proceeded. Currently, he is in two study groups (one math and one physics); each has 3-4 people and they meet weekly. In both cases, members were known to each other from previous classes (It seems that 2/3 of his freshman math class is currently taking the same math class he is taking). These study groups are different from sections in which a Course Assistant 9an undergraduate acting as teaching assistant) expands or elaborates on the materials presented in lectures by the prof, answers questions, and may give mini lectures on topics connected to the lecture materials. The CAs also have weekly office hours, as do the profs.
I can only speak about Harvard and MIT but I would be surprised if study groups were not prevalent in other math & physics departments also.</p>

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<p>Thanks, Marite.</p>