Math majors at Chicago?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Chicago ✅
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<p>Hello, everyone. During the 07-08 year I was a freshman math major at a small state school in Wisconsin. I was among the top couple students in most of my classes, and felt very stifled. I applied to many schools for transfer for 08-09, and was admitted to UChicago, among a couple others. I'm really excited, since UChicago is a huge step up from the school I'm attending now, and the core looks interesting. Most of all, I'm excited about taking challenging classes, but I'm also thrilled by the idea of being surrounded by other intellectuals/nerds. However, I've heard from several sources now that the "mathematically minded" don't get as much out of Chicago as other, more humanities-oriented students do. In fact, I've heard from a couple people that being a math major at Chicago is pretty lackluster, and that I should've applied to a few technology schools. On the other hand, I've heard from more professional sources that Chicago is strong not only in economics/sociology/etc., but also in math and the hard sciences. Would anyone like to give their two cents?</p>

<p>While I am mathematically minded, I think I'm pretty well rounded, and I have "softer" interests, namely creative writing (poetry) and foreign language/linguistics. I'm also interested in Jewish and Russian studies, and all genres of art and literature. Psychology and anthropology generally turn me off, while I find biology, chemistry, and physics (specifically astrophysics) very interesting. Do I sound like the kind of person who would have a ball at Chicago?</p>

<p>Unfortunately, because I don't have much money, I can't visit UChicago like I would like to. I'm almost certain I'll be going there, however, because it seems like the most challenging school I've been admitted to. Obviously the acceptance deadline is coming up, so I'm just trying to sort out my thoughts and know what to expect when I arrive next September.</p>

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<p>After me, you'll hear a deluge of this from current students, but the proposition "that being a math major at Chicago is pretty lackluster" is false. Check the course catalogue: Chicago offers a wide range of mathematics courses at various levels, with an emphasis on 'pure' mathematics. Honours Analysis, for instance, is sometimes called the hardest maths class after Math 55 at Harvard. The Moore method is available in some sections of various courses. The department holds a well-known, intensive and challenging REU. The list goes on. As a future mathematics major in the class of 2012, I think you'll not be disappointed as a budding mathematician (or general scholar) at Chicago, and I'd challenge those who claim otherwise to produce some hard evidence.</p>

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<p>I think you'll find a terrific math program and math community here, and I too am curious as to who told you Chicago is more of a humanities school.</p>

<p>Half of the people I know think that Chicago is a "science only" school, the other half think it's a "humanities only" school. I'm stuck here wondering why people can't think of it as both, because it is both.</p>

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<p>
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Honours Analysis, for instance, is sometimes called the hardest maths class after Math 55 at Harvard.

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<p>Actually, contrary to what people at Harvard think, Honors Analysis is on par or slightly more difficult than Math 55. I talked with John Boller, senior lecturer here, about it, and he said that Honors Analysis is like "a more structured version of Math 55". (IMHO, if Honors Analysis is more structured than 55, I'd hate to think of how awful 55 is.) Anyway, he taught at Harvard and Chicago, and is familiar with both classes, so if anyone would know, it would be him.</p>

<p>The University of Chicago is one of, if not the most, respected undergraduate institution for mathematics in the world. I'm not exaggerating: Over 30% of incoming domestic students to Harvard's graduate mathematics program last year were UChicago students. Nearly every serious math major here goes to graduate school; in fact, almost every serious math major here goes to a TOP 10 graduate school. If you want to see the stats, here's a link:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.math.uchicago.edu/%7Emay/VIGRE/CollateStats.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.math.uchicago.edu/~may/VIGRE/CollateStats.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>People will "give you evidence" that Chicago doesn't have a great program through our lack of competition in the Putnam examination. This is a flawed argument. Our lack of competition merely elucidates our research focus and ultimately serious nature. Most of the people here simply don't have time for unimportant competitions once they get here, and I know a handful of USAMOs here who choose not to compete in the Putnam at all.</p>

<p>Our classes are undoubtedly some of the hardest in the nation, but if that doesn't thrill you, you should look at the other opportunities that you'll have at Chicago. This year, I'll be one of about 30 people doing the full REU program -- a research program for undergraduate students. I'm fully funded, receiving a $3000 stipend over 8 weeks, and I'll be doing research under a graduate student mentor and also assisting elementary teachers in furthering their mathematical education. In fact, I'll probably continue this into the school year. Keep in mind that I'm only a freshman. No other university will give you the opportunity to do your own real research like this -- most other REUs are very applied and don't give you room for personal exploration into pure mathematics.</p>

<p>During the school year, we have something called the DRP - directed reading program. You get to study under an appropriate graduate student mentor in a subject area that interests you. You do plenty of research, write papers, and the university will even toss in a few books. Overall, I've heard it's a great experience, although I probably won't get the opportunity to participate in it until next year.</p>

<p>Chicago's math department is known for having a tight-knit community, with graduate students, undergraduate students, and professors being in a very tight circle. You should have no problem finding research mentors or acquaintances with similar mathematical interests.</p>

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<p>Oatmealia,
S is an incoming first year in math. He picked Chicago <em>because</em> of the humanities. He wanted both a top math department and the opportunity to be challenged by and with people who are passionate about the humanities and social sciences. He did not find that kind of combination at the excellent engineering schools where he was accepted.</p>

<p>If you are a math major who also loves humanities, I think you'll find much to make you happy. S visited three times, sat in on four HUM/SOSC classes, and liked everything, including the classes he visited without a specific recommendation as to the class/prof.</p>

<p>MIT did a study on top math programs a few years ago and said these were the top six math programs, in no particular order: Harvard, Princeton, Chicago, MIT, Stanford and Berkeley. If you want great math, you've got it.</p>

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<p>I want to add, unnecessarily, that one of the few known movies about math, Proof, takes place at the University of Chicago. (It was filmed on location there, too. Renting it isn't as good as a visit, but it will give you some visuals beside what's on the web page.)</p>

<p>Chicago is definitely a place where math is mainstream. Not only are there lots of math majors, but lots of physics majors, too, and lots and lots of economics majors in a famous, and famously quantish, department. You don't have to look far to find people talking about math at a pretty sophisticated level.</p>

<p>On the non-math side, you may want to check out The Great Latke-Hamantash Debate, an anthology of papers presented over the years at Chicago's annual, yes, Latke-Hamantash Debate, at which renowned scholars use the tools of their various disciplines to argue for the relative superiority of latkes or hamantashen.</p>

<p>I think Chicago will jibe with your interests in lots of ways.</p>

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<p>Thank you, everyone. I was definitely underestimating Chicago's math program. This is wonderful-- I'm bursting with excitement for next fall.</p>

<p>phuriku, thank you for the information about the REUs. I'm very interested in research opportunities, but I'm a bit underconfident, so knowing that there's a good likelihood I'll be able to participate in one (to test my wheels, if nothing else) is great.</p>

<p>JHS, thanks for the movie recommendation. I've been thinking about checking out Proof for awhile (I'm a closet Gwenyth Paltrow fan), so if I can look at Paltrow and the UChicago campus, I'm in.</p>

<p>CountingDown, thanks for the rankings. I'm surprised that Caltech wasn't ranked among the top six-- was MIT airing some dirty laundry? :)</p>

<p>I'm just thrilled. Chicago is apparently the perfect school for me. Serious yet quirky, nerdy yet literate, great in science and the humanities. I'm looking forward to joining many of you in a couple months!</p>

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<p>
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CountingDown, thanks for the rankings. I'm surprised that Caltech wasn't ranked among the top six-- was MIT airing some dirty laundry?

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<p>Actually, I think the rankings CountingDown is referring to are USNWR's graduate rankings, of which MIT listed the top 6 on their math departmental page. USNWR has MIT at 1, Chicago at 6, and others tied for 2nd. But pretty much everyone knows that these rankings are BS, including MIT -- all are about the same quality and prestige. These top 6 are generally put into a class of their own.</p>

<p>Caltech's graduate math department is a bit lagging behind the top 6, but it is still generally a strong school, and definitely in the 2nd bunch of top schools (Columbia, Yale, Courant, Caltech). Caltech's undergraduate program is, in my opinion, not very impressive. Its math Core requirements are astounding, but in terms of pure math, the classes just aren't rigorous enough - a friend of mine recently pointed out to me that Caltech's Complex Analysis course was in a really pathetic state. Note that I'm drawing a distinction between pure and applied math - Caltech is much better in the latter.</p>

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<p>I honestly had no idea that Caltech's math department was lagging at all, or that their undergrad pure math was less rigorous than other comparable schools. I have a close friend who did his undergrad at Caltech, and it was obviously challenging, but I wonder if he's made any observations about the state of their department now vs. when he attended twenty years ago. Very interesting.</p>

<p>So, I have another question if anyone is still around: would the differences in quality between the math dept. at Chicago and any other random high-ranked school-- on a whim let's just say *Penn<a href="for%20no%20particular%20reason!%20;">/i</a>)-- be unobservable to a "mediocre" mathematics student, or does a excellent (vs. very good) department more substantially benefit all students who take advantage of it as best they can? I mean, is there a clear difference for students who pay attention?</p>

<p>Now I'm just being silly and curious. :)</p>

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<p>
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I honestly had no idea that Caltech's math department was lagging at all, or that their undergrad pure math was less rigorous than other comparable schools. I have a close friend who did his undergrad at Caltech, and it was obviously challenging, but I wonder if he's made any observations about the state of their department now vs. when he attended twenty years ago. Very interesting.

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<p>I heard that they recently lost some top faculty members to rival institutions. I think Caltech was much more involved in mathematics in earlier years. However, simultaneously, they do send many of their undergraduates to top universities. However, I've seen people with over 4.0 GPAs from Caltech (with A+s in all math courses) not get into schools like Harvard, Chicago, Princeton, etc., and have to "resort" to Columbia. A 4.0 GPA from Chicago (and all As in math courses) is much more impressive (and infinitely more difficult to attain).</p>

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So, I have another question if anyone is still around: would the differences in quality between the math dept. at Chicago and any other random high-ranked school-- on a whim let's just say Penn (for no particular reason! )-- be unobservable to a "mediocre" mathematics student, or does a excellent (vs. very good) department more substantially benefit all students who take advantage of it as best they can? I mean, is there a clear difference for students who pay attention?

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<p>Especially in the comparison between Chicago and Penn, yes. You will be propelled into absolutely pure math at Chicago because, really, there is nowhere else to run. Everything math at Chicago is pure, so you're going to be more exposed to real mathematics opposed to "Mickey Mouse mathematics". Some universities only require mickey mouse mathematics to get a degree. Here, you'll have to pass extremely pure and rigorous analysis and algebra courses, and even with Penn's hardest courses, I don't think they can compensate. You also have to keep in mind that we have a more academic environment, and you'll be immersed into mathematics via research and friends with similar interests.</p>

<p>If you take advantage of everything, then Chicago will easily benefit you more than Penn.</p>

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<p>Okay, great. I was talking to someone about the math dept. at Chicago vs. that at Penn last night, and the opinion seemed to be that I would be pushed into a lot more applied/connect-the-dots math at Penn, which would merely feel like an accelerated version of what I'm doing now (which is what I'm trying to escape). I'm slightly intimidated now, but it appears that whatever happens, I will get some solid contact with the pure maths. And maybe have to become a Psychology major. ;)</p>

<p>According to their website, Penn's mathematical claim to fame is that they're a leader in "applying mathematics to theoretical computer science," and I'm not much of a CS-head. The math department at my current school is a joint Math-CS dept., and while it was interesting, it wasn't that appealing to me.</p>

<p>Does anyone know if there happens to be a way I could get my hands on some of the materials used in beginning or mid-level math courses at Chicago? Homework or class notes or something. I have no idea if their course materials circulate outside of class like they do at some other schools. Even knowing which books are used in calculus, abs. algebra, etc. would be nice. So I don't feel like I'm walking into a minefield. :) I'm currently self-studying out of Herstein's Topics in Algebra, and I'm wondering if that's basically on par with the kind of text they use.</p>

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<p>You are the most important variable in how much math you are going to learn in the next three years, and what you are going to do with it. Realistically, you are going to take 12-15 math courses at either school. You can look online at what's available at each, and what's required for majors. While I don't think anyone doubts Chicago's primacy in math, Penn has a real, big department, with people who are qualified and capable to teach you anything you want to learn from them.</p>

<p>I think the biggest difference is likely to be social. Imagine there were 50 people more or less like you, but with a normal range of idiosyncrasies, choosing between Chicago and Penn. Where are more of them going to wind up? Where is there going to be more of a community around math? (Hint: It's in a state that starts with "I".)</p>

<p>On the other hand, that's not such a strong point that it couldn't be overcome by other, countervailing considerations. Also -- and I'm perhaps on shaky ground here -- I notice that lots of people seem to LIKE applied math. The enjoy working with it more than they enjoy pure theory. They are not dumb, or slackers; there is interesting stuff to do. They have satisfying lives, and often find employment. They often find really lucrative employment.</p>

<p>Penn vs. Chicago doesn't determine that, of course. Going to Chicago does not mean that you would never do applied math. My favorite ex-Chicago undergraduate is happily designing trading algorithms for a financial firm. And the Penn faculty is happy to teach you theory. It's just that everyone won't be doing it with some intense sense of mission, and it may turn out that the teachers who attract you most are doing something else, so that's what you do. That's how the world works.</p>

<p>Really, truly, you could be happy either place, and you could get an excellent math education and go on to the next level from either place. You can't really make a mistake here. </p>

<p>Good luck with your decision!</p>

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<p>oatmealia, it's spivak calculus for honors calc.</p>

<p>and i think Rudin's "Principles of Mathematical Analysis" is a lso a pretty good book to look through...</p>

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<p>I also think Chicago is starting to have a few offshoot classes of calculus/analysis/algebra that are Inquiry based..using the moore method and what not, so you will also be able to learn math through many different styles, which is more than what most colleges can say.</p>

<p>I mean Chicago has like 4 calculus sequences you can take FOUR...tell me one other school that has 4 different sequences...(technically there are 3 but im saying Moore Method/Inquiry Based Honours Calc sequence is different from the reg. honors calc.)</p>

<p>here's a good link to many mathematics questions about Uchicago </p>

<p><a href="http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=7670219923&topic=4313&start=0&hash=b036fc60394ba0e9936e3ee1a1258960%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=7670219923&topic=4313&start=0&hash=b036fc60394ba0e9936e3ee1a1258960&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Thanks, JHS. What you've said is likely true, and I'm sure I'm putting at least a little too much emphasis on certain factors due to my perspective-- it's easy to get caught up in the excitement.</p>

<p>I am ragging on applied math a bit, and should probably be more diplomatic. But in my case, the gap between abstract and applied math is significant. I've had tastes of upper-level classes in both, and for me, one is exciting, fulfilling, natural, etc., while the other is mind-numbing and spotty. However, I do know people who have found their calling in applied math. I'm just fairly sure it's not for me. A friend of mine who was excellent at math in high school had to take a prerequisite Applied Calculus course last year before he could finish his calculus cycle, and it bruised him so badly he was considering dropping math altogether until I convinced him that there was a better fit waiting for him. Applied math is that traumatizing to the abstract mind. :) (Kidding.)</p>

<p>Anyhow, Penn is obviously an excellent school, and I feel very lucky to have gotten in. But I think what I'm really looking forward to is the sense of community and imperative around theoretical math, and so I've made my choice. I dropped my Chicago acceptance in the mail today. :)</p>

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<p>Congratulations oatmealia!</p>

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<p>Hooray! See you around campus this September!</p>

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<p>Thanks, glasses and unalove! I'm really excited. I posted a "Penn vs. Chicago" topic on the Penn board, and the response was almost unanimously: "GO TO CHICAGO." I guess I exude nerd even over the internet. :)</p>

<p>Unalove, may I ask what your major is? If you don't like to give away personal info, I understand.</p>

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<p>I'm an English major, potential art history minor.</p>

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<p>Here is a link that might be of interest: Chicago</a> undergraduate mathematics bibliography</p>