Math majors at Chicago?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Chicago ✅
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<p>Nobody wants to say this, but UofC has A LOT of math majors. Probably twice as much as does the next top 20 program and about 5 times as many as Princeton, Harvard, Yale... </p>

<p>The great thing about UofC, though, is that you get to choose your own path. IMHO, getting the basic BA or BS in math (and even the honors degree) is not that hard, especially if you take many classes from non-tenured faculty, but, every quarter, you have the option (and, really, the responsibility) to push yourself to the limits with the choice of classes, professors, and peers, if you are <em>serious</em>* about math. </p>

<p>So, my point is, the average UofC math class is probably not as intensive as the average MIT or Harvard class, especially when you consider that much of the "challenge" lies in the quality of your competitors and peers, which, let's face it, would probably be higher in those schools, particularly because we have a gazillion more majors than they do...however, our hardest classes and most competitive students would give anyone a run for his money, and every graduate department knows that. You'll always enough to challenge you...I can guarantee that much.</p>

<p>As far as math students not getting as much out of the rest of the school and especially the core, I'd have to agree with your sources; I'm a slow reader and writer, but classes like sosc. and hum. can really take up an inordinate amount of valuable time. I hope that changes some day.</p>

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So, my point is, the average UofC math class is probably not as intensive as the average MIT or Harvard class, especially when you consider that much of the "challenge" lies in the quality of your competitors and peers, which, let's face it, would probably be higher in those schools, particularly because we have a gazillion more majors than they do

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<p>This is why we have honors classes and why other colleges don't. This is also why we only let so many people into Honors Analysis. Also, once you get up into the high high classes, no non-serious math majors are there. The serious math students should be taking graduate classes by their 3rd year, anyway, and Honors Analysis is incredibly difficult, so besides 2nd year, you should be fairly challenged.</p>

<p>But really, have you seen MIT's math classes? Although they have some pretty difficult courses, even some of their graduate classes don't compare to Chicago's undergraduate courses. Compare their Graduate Measure Theory (look it up on OCW) to Chicago's Honors Analysis, for example. It largely depends on the teacher, no matter what class it is. But you'll almost always have the chance to take a class with a tenured faculty member once you get past Honors Calculus. (For me, it's Ryzhik, Sally, Lawler, Kottwitz, so far. Any serious mathematician at any university will know the names of at least 2 of these, depending on their personal area of study.)</p>

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The great thing about UofC, though, is that you get to choose your own path. IMHO, getting the basic BA or BS in math (and even the honors degree) is not that hard, especially if you take many classes from non-tenured faculty, but, every quarter, you have the option (and, really, the responsibility) to push yourself to the limits with the choice of classes, professors, and peers, if you are <em>serious</em>* about math.

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<p>Well, it's easy to get degrees/honors degrees from other universities, too. Note that at MIT, you have to take X (X=8?) math courses. 8. There are no other restrictions for getting a math degree from MIT. So you could spend your entire time as a math major at MIT without doing a proof, in theory. Chicago's theoretical nature makes it much more difficult to stay in mathematics.</p>

<p>But according to college board, 9% of MIT students report being math majors compared to 8% for Chicago. Caltech has 14%. Harvard has 5%, but has a larger population.</p>

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<p>That Harvard number may be understated, because Harvard has separate "Math" and "Applied Math" concentrations (the latter of which includes the equivalent of Math with concentration in Economics.)</p>

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<p>^I think UofC has more pure math majors (not as a percentage) than Harvard, Princeton, Yale (and, I assume, Stanford and Caltech), Columbia, or Cornell. </p>

<p>In any case, let's not kid ourselves. The "average" (and I'm using the term a little bit loosely) math major at UofC is probably not as <em>qualified</em> as that in MIT. Those schools have the "prestige" factor going for them, so they attract more talented students, in general. I'm not making any personal statements about phuriku or, for that matter, for students in the 207 sequence, but this isn't some wild claim. A lot of people (and, I think, even Sally) would agree; Putnam scores don't tell the whole story, but the number of MIT students in the top 200 dwarfs ours, even if the entire damn school participated. In their freshman class, MIT has no less than 5 IMO participants. Competitions are very different from actual math, but seriously, UofC students (myself included) aren't of that calibre. </p>

<p>This is true of graduate departments and, certainly, also true of undergrad. majors. The result, I believe, is that our classes are somewhat less competitive than those at MIT or Caltech.</p>

<p>Regarding the comparison to MIT's courses, we don't really require that many courses for the B.A. in math, either. And if we compare our B.S. sequence in "straight-up" math to MIT's theoretical math sequence, there's not too much of a difference, especially when you consider that most pure math majors don't just take the required courses. I am basing a lot of what I know from personal experience with friends who go to MIT and comparisons with their tests, homework, etc. For instance, I am 99.99999% sure that our topology courses are easier. OCW is probably not exactly representative of MIT's courses; I'd think that their graduate courses were on par with ours, regardless of what they post online (this, Paul Sally can confirm). </p>

<p>My entire point, though, was that because you get to choose, with ample information and flexibility, your classes, peers, and prof.s, and because graduate schools recognize such choices, UofC's program is sufficient for the large majority of people. Our faculty are among the best in the world, and, if you get bored, you can always take (as phuriku suggested) some grad. courses.</p>

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<p>
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This is true of graduate departments and, certainly, also true of undergrad. majors. The result, I believe, is that our classes are somewhat less competitive than those at MIT or Caltech.

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<p>Competitive... well, I guess. Then again, I don't think competitiveness is that important, and is sometimes distracting. According to some friends, MIT has this obsession with 'being hardcore', and there will always be people bragging about pulling all-nighters or incessant studying. Such behavior, in my opinion, is obnoxious, and I'm glad I've not encountered it here.</p>

<p>Also, there's something to say for slack being given in classes. Success in math isn't determined by success in math classes, and if you focus all of your effort in getting an A in your math class, then you're missing something. I'm glad that grades aren't too difficult to obtain in our math courses (although I think averages hang around B or B+) as it allows students to focus on research math instead of competing with other students. I'm sure it depends on individual preference, though.</p>

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<p>It sounds like math students split up into two streams: those who take honors analysis and those who don't. From experiences with friends in both streams, the honors analysis kids are 24/7 math, pretty much, and the ones who aren't are still amazingly bright, but they have a lot more time for things like joining a fraternity, playing IM sports, etc.</p>

<p>In that sense, a math major at Chicago is like almost any other major here: there is the regular level, the super-challenge level, and a lot in between. Personally, I'm an average student on the regular level, and that's the right place for me. If I wanted to take graduate-level seminars that required hundreds of pages of dense readings per class, I could, but I don't. I have things to do and message boards to write on :-) </p>

<p>We're talking about math here, but if we were to extend the scope to humanities too, I don't necessarily think that Chicago classes (at least "regular" ones) are harder than their counterparts at other peer schools. Where I think we differ is that we don't have as many "gut" courses as other schools do-- my friends who are taking hard classes at other schools KNOW they are taking hard classes, and also know they could be taking easy classes.</p>

<p>And going a little philosophical here: MIT, Chicago, and CalTech seem to have different approaches to education and tend to appeal to different students-- though MIT and CalTech are more competitive admissions-wise, I would also point out that these three schools appeal to three different kinds of smart that sometimes overlap and sometimes don't.</p>

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<p>"I'm glad that grades aren't too difficult to obtain in our math courses..."</p>

<p>I am, too.</p>

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<p>
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"I'm glad that grades aren't too difficult to obtain in our math courses..."</p>

<p>I am, too.

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<p>That's funny, I've mostly heard that Chicago grades very harshly. Is that not as true in the math department, or are y'all just a couple of geniuses? :)</p>

<p>By the way, thanks for all the discussion, everyone. It's really interesting and helpful.</p>

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<p>It largely depends on the professor and the class level. From what I've seen, B is about average.</p>

<p>I'm working, I don't know, 10 hours a week in Complex Analysis and easily getting an A, whereas I'm working about 20 hours a week in Honors Analysis in an attempt to pull off an A-.</p>

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<p>unalove, no need to be modest. "An average student on the regular level," with, what, a 3.7?</p>

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<p>I think the key to math courses is placement. There seems to be careful consideration of course level at the outset so that learning the material and being able to move to the next level is possible without excess unforeseen challenge.</p>

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<p>Haha thanks for the flattery, but my GPA is nowhere near that high. I think it's below average for the school (if the average is a indeed a 3.26, like gradeinflation.com says) but I haven't checked it since last year.... that gives you an idea of how much I care about grades in the first place ;-)</p>

<p>What I think I meant to underscore was that I've met my academic threshold here and I don't wish to go further into academia than at the level I'm currently at, and while Chicago offers me more challenge, I've decided I'm okay not taking it. I continue to love academics and I will continue to take bonkers, off-the-wall classes just for fun, and I will continue to do the readings and participate in class, but I just don't take papers and tests seriously (particularly tests), and my grades reflect that. I want school to be fun, not burdensome, and if I focus on getting an A, I feel like I'll be missing out on the class experience.</p>

<p>Some people want more. Some people want a lot more. Those people go into PhD programs. I'm probably going to go into the professional world, and I'll explore what I'm interested in in my free time.</p>

<p>**</p>

<p>Glasses is on the money on that one-- a class like honors physics will be dizzying if one doesn't have a solid grasp of concepts going in. A placement test will let you know if you're ready for that class.</p>

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<p>Thank you guys. I'm just watching from the sidelines and all I feel is awe. Just wish I was 18 again and had all of these choices to make. S will join you in September and I couldn't be happier for the fertile ground he'll tread for the next four years. I trust his instincts and Chicago was his choice.</p>

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<p>Not every math major would jump at MIT > UChicago if given the choice. ;)</p>

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<p>So, let me repeat how I understand it. You like math, Russian and Jewish studies, languages, arts and literature, essays and you have some reservations about the hardcore brand of Christianity. </p>

<p>I think you're a perfect match to Chicago. I also think being surrounded by some people who are not nerds is better for a normal person, so you nailed that too.</p>

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<p>Thank you, derivative! You've done your homework, as I'm pretty sure all that information is spread out over quite a few threads. :) The more involved I become with Chicago, the more convinced I am that it is the right place for me.</p>

<p>So, I've read that first year math students take the three quarter calculus sequence, second year students take the three(?) quarter analysis sequence, and third year students take the two or three quarter algebra sequence. I would assume fourth year is used to fill in the blanks. Does anyone know where a sample math four-year schedule might be found? Or would they be interested in providing one, based on their own experience? I'm feeling a little bit rushed with my 3.3 years of financial aid.</p>

<p>Also, a meek question, if no one minds: I've also read that grad schools do not care where you transfer to (yes, that harsh), and will not be as "impressed" by a transfer student to a good school as they would be to a four-year student there. That makes some sense, I suppose, but would anyone care to comment?</p>

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<p>
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So, I've read that first year math students take the three quarter calculus sequence, second year students take the three(?) quarter analysis sequence, and third year students take the two or three quarter algebra sequence. I would assume fourth year is used to fill in the blanks. Does anyone know where a sample math four-year schedule might be found? Or would they be interested in providing one, based on their own experience? I'm feeling a little bit rushed with my 3.3 years of financial aid.

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<p>1st year: Honors Calculus
2nd year: Analysis or Honors Analysis
3rd/4th year: Algebra or Honors Algebra, (Topology), (Functional Analysis), (Complex Analysis), (Differentiable Manifolds), (Probability), (Discrete Math), etc.</p>

<p>You'll end up having to take a lot of the ones in the parentheses, although they're not all required and they're not part of any sequence, just individual one-quarter classes.</p>

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Also, a meek question, if no one minds: I've also read that grad schools do not care where you transfer to (yes, that harsh), and will not be as "impressed" by a transfer student to a good school as they would be to a four-year student there. That makes some sense, I suppose, but would anyone care to comment?

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<p>Graduate schools really couldn't care less about the 'name brand' of your school. They care about the education you've received prior to applying to grad school, and so if you transfer to Chicago having the same math background as other 2nd or 3rd years, then you should be in good shape. Otherwise, you'll probably have some catching up to do, but if you extend your residence at Chicago to an extra year or so, you should be in good shape.</p>

<p>If two people are applying from Chicago, and one is a year ahead math-wise than the other, that person of course has the advantage. It's the same scenario. It all depends on what level you enter Chicago with and how successfully and quickly you progress.</p>

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Graduate schools really couldn't care less about the 'name brand' of your school. They care about the education you've received prior to applying to grad school, and so if you transfer to Chicago having the same math background as other 2nd or 3rd years, then you should be in good shape. Otherwise, you'll probably have some catching up to do, but if you extend your residence at Chicago to an extra year or so, you should be in good shape.</p>

<p>If two people are applying from Chicago, and one is a year ahead math-wise than the other, that person of course has the advantage. It's the same scenario. It all depends on what level you enter Chicago with and how successfully and quickly you progress.

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<p>Gotcha, thanks. I took Calculus 1 and 2 at my first school, as well as a Java programming course and an "Intro to Abstract Math" course that were specific to the math major program at that university. So, the only courses that are really transferable are my calculus courses, but I've read that to get into Honors Analysis you need to take Honors Calculus, which is an entirely different beast from most regular calculus courses, and blah blah blah. I suppose at some point my advisor will have some advice for me. I'm just hoping I'll be able to handle the slight time crunch.</p>

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<p>How many questions are on the Calculus placement exam, and what is the format and time limit? Are only the contents of single variable calculus tested on it? For example, does it test integration, formal definition of limits, differentiation, series sequence convergence, and least upper bound axion? Or does it include vector calculus, multiply integral, partial derivative, green, stoke, etc? </p>

<p>I took Calculus BC over a year ago and Multivariable Calculus a few months ago, but I was thinking of reading the first volume of Apostol's Calculus for more rigor. Assuming I study this book thoroughly with special attention to all the proof they give (this book gives extensive proofs), is there a chance that I could pass into Honor Analysis?</p>

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<p>The test does NOT include topics in multivariable calculus. Only single-variable calculus is tested, and the free-response part of the exam tests more theoretic notions of calculus.</p>

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I took Calculus BC over a year ago and Multivariable Calculus a few months ago, but I was thinking of reading the first volume of Apostol's Calculus for more rigor.

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<p>I'd advise that you pick up a copy of Michael Spivak's 'Calculus' or Walter Rudin's 'Principles of Mathematical Analysis' instead.</p>

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Assuming I study this book thoroughly with special attention to all the proof they give (this book gives extensive proofs), is there a chance that I could pass into Honor Analysis?

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<p>Yes.</p>

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So, the only courses that are really transferable are my calculus courses, but I've read that to get into Honors Analysis you need to take Honors Calculus, which is an entirely different beast from most regular calculus courses, and blah blah blah. I suppose at some point my advisor will have some advice for me. I'm just hoping I'll be able to handle the slight time crunch.

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<p>Make a note that our regular Analysis course is also an outstanding and in-depth course. Honors Analysis really steps up the theory and takes things to a whole new level of math altogether, and you might not ever see some of the material you learn in there ever again (<em>cough</em> <em>cough</em> p-adics). I don't mean to discourage you, but you may test into regular Analysis, and I don't necessarily think it would be destructive to your mathematical experience to skip over Honors Calculus and enter regular Analysis (203) or Introduction to Abstract Math (199). Just something to keep in mind.</p>