Looking for advice regarding math in high school as relates to college applications and merit aid.
I have a rising freshman who goes to a competitive private school that started in middle school and goes through 12th. She is a strong student (honor roll; all As) who is most passionate about writing, history, science and robotics.
Several years ago she was tracked to the regular math program. We were a little surprised because she has always done well in math in terms of grades, and with one exception has always tested well on the standardized tests for math (most recently her ERB was a 9th stanine for that national norm and a 7th for the independent norm). At the time, D said she was satisfied being in the non-honor track. That was a few years ago. Starting 18 months ago, she has been saying she wants the challenge and wants to do what is needed to move to the honor track.
The math dept chair has not been receptive, despite the fact that she has As in math. I get the sense that they have too many kids from their perspective who “qualify” to go into the honors track, and it is difficult for them logistically to switch kids to the honor track. They certainly are not looking to move anyone to honors. Also, math is not Ds passion, and perhaps that shows, even if she is wanting the challenge. Also, I am not socially graceful, so maybe I did not raise it with the school in a way that made them want to consider the move. Who knows!
Whatever the reason, it doesn’t seem to be an option to move up to honors math in her school, at least for now. (Note, they take geometry freshman year. The non-honors pathway allows them to take AP calc AB their senior year).
I know from my older child’s college application process that taking the more rigorous courses the high school offers matters from an admission standpoint and from a merit aid standpoint. I am wondering if there is a pathway that both allows D the challenge she is seeking (I don’t want her to get the impression that what is decided in 6th grade sticks with you forever) and also reduces the negative impact on college applications and merit aid of not being in honors math. Would love any advice/ideas!
(Fwiw, her school has an atypical policy - math and science are the only courses where honors placement is decided by the school. For the other classes, the kids choose if they want to be in the honors/AP class. You definitely get a bump in the GPA if you do go the honors/AP route.)
You can surmise why but you can’t really know. I’d trust the experts. Many kids and parents think they are ahead of they really are. An A doesn’t mean you’re ready for the faster, more rigorous pace.
Many don’t take Calc AB and frankly AB is enough to get into any college in America.
Seems nothing to worry about.
Our school offered BC. My son was placed into AB. He got into elite (Purdue)and other strong engineering schools like UF, UMD, School of Mines.
Your worry seems misplaced to me. And is your student planning a STEM career ?
Btw your subject says merit aid. That’s not an issue. Many schools go by gpa and /or test and often it’s those with the most rigor and suffer grade wise get hit. Others will see Calc AB as rigorous.
Your student is a 9th grader. Focus on appropriate classes and ECs that they’ll enjoy. The rest will then work out fine.
I would not worry about this right now. Can your D be placed into honors after she completes a 9th grade class, if she does well (I know they are reluctant)? Let her take what was recommended and go from there, especially since math is not where her interests are. If this is school policy I assume (?) you cannot do anything, other than find another school.
FYI your daughter can get merit money even if she takes regular math instead of honors.
A track that allows your daughter to reach Calc AB senior year is excellent and the “honors” track at most universities. Since she’s interested in Humanities&Social Science, this will be considered quite rigorous.
Encourage her to continue to do well in her math class and to go beyond in in her Humanities/social science classes.
I would expect a competitive private school to have excellent insight into the impact of math track on their student outcomes - or not as the case may be. Have you discussed it with her counselor?
There are also plenty of college freshmen who have never taken calculus in high school. If needed, they take it in college. Having a strong math foundation is what is important.
Is she really not challenged in her current math program? My kids were on a math track determined by their school (in 3rd grade!) that allowed them to get to calculus in 11th grade. They got As, but they were absolutely challenged. Had there been a higher track, I wouldn’t have pushed for them to take it simply because they had As in the track that they were on.
If math isn’t her passion and STEM isn’t her college goal, this sounds more about wanting to appear competitive relative to her school peers as she/you are realizing that matters for college admissions. It’s an understandable urge, but given that she will still be able to get to Calculus AB before graduating, it’s probably not necessary.
At some high schools it can be very difficult or even impossible to move up levels in math – the honors track has likely covered more topics, went more in depth in areas etc. This could leave your D with significant gaps in her math background if she makes the jump to the honors classes. If she truly wants to move up, she should start by asking teachers what topics etc. the honors classes have covered that her non-honors classes have not and if there is a way to make up that coursework.
Agree with others, that if your D takes Calc AB senior year she will be in good shape. Unless math is her passion, I would let it be. There are plenty of other challenging courses she can take.
A math track leading to calculus AB is generally fine as preparation for any US college in any major (including science and engineering majors).
But it seems like you may be asking the question more in terms of competition for college admission rather than preparation for college. In terms of whether it is sufficient for the counselor to mark “most demanding” schedule (if the rest of her schedule shows rigorous choices) and “one of the top few” in academic achievement (if she excels academically overall) on the school report, that is something only the counselor will know (and may or may not tell you).
At our kids’ high school, switching tracks was more about schedule issues than anything else (under 200 in each graduating class). Our kid was in college level math (our decision NOT to accelerate her in 8th grade). She had fabulous teachers in 8th and 9th grade and inquired about switching to honors for 11 grade (note…not jumping math courses, just taking honors instead of college level).
Well…at our high school, the honors level courses were filled by kids in the grade below her (all accelerated) so they were on a 10th grade schedule…and she was in 11th grade. There was no way for her to take all of her other required courses and switch (as an aside…the school counselor did place her in honors math…when we got her schedule, we noticed that English wasn’t on it. When inquired, he said that was the only way to fit honors math into her schedule. DUH. English is required…honors math isn’t. So…that was that).
Anyway. As I said, there are plenty of kids who head off to college and take calculus there. And especially kids who are not majoring in STEM fields.
Also, your daughter is an 8th…soon to be 9th grader. It’s really hard to say whether or not her current math track will challenge her. Many kids with easy As in middle school end up being sufficiently challenged with high school math.
If her 8th grade teacher agrees that she was under stimulated and ready for more advanced work, another way to ask your question would be if she could accelerate by taking additional math in the summer, then catch in to the other track after one or two summers of community college/online/or independent study.
I think taking this route is unnecessary and possibly unwarranted, but it might give you some peace about having made the effort. If she takes geometry or algebra 2 or whatever she is supposed to take next year this summer, in a condensed format, and enjoys it and excels, then it makes sense to push the issue. If she resists the extra work or finds it hard to manage a faster pace, perhaps she was wanting to accelerate for reasons outside of not being challenged.
I would make an appointment now and go in and speak with the headmaster and the head of the math department. If she is interested in science and robotics, it will be to her benefit to be ahead in math.
Math is a skill that develops early; it isn’t something that one waits for maturity. I suspect that you are spot on about why they’re holding her out of the honors track for math, that it’s too crowded and they’ve figured out that she (and you) are willing to be shunted into the regular track. That’s not a valid reason, that they don’t have room in honors math. You are paying for the best education that you can get for her. You have every right, in fact you have a responsibility to advocate for her!
I strongly urge you to insist that they put her in the honors track. You can have her do some math over the summer with a tutor to catch up. It is a very bad idea to have a kid who has been asking for the honors track, who says that she can do it, be denied it. She could wind up bored and discouraged, and lose her passion for learning math, which will limit her options in science and robotics. Give her the chance, get her math tutoring if she needs it to stay in the honors track - if she wants it. If it is too much for her, she can always drop back down to the regular track.
For what it’s worth, I had two of my kids who were very, very good at math, and quite advanced in it, be told that they didn’t belong in honors track early on (elementary to middle school), one because of not doing well enough on a math aptitude test, the other because they refused to learn and use a remedial, cumbersome, slow concrete method of doing elementary school math when they’d already mastered the standard algorithms years beforehand. I insisted that they be placed in honors, and they did very well in it. Neither one of them had any trouble with math; in fact, one of them said that I should have put him two years ahead when I had the opportunity, when he entered middle school, and he was right.
She is already ahead in math, on the +1 track. Of course, the math acceleration race prevalent on these forums can make it seem like anything less than the +2 or +3 track is “behind”.
I can both ways here. Colleges want students ready to take Calc 1 college freshman year but also have pre Calc for students that need that. At my son’s well known engineering program some kids were starting at Calc 1 and some were several classes ahead of that. You kinda start college and continue where you are at.
Saying that, can she take a placement test? Can she get the final of the class she was to surpass to see how she does?
She should be in the appropriate class for her skill level. Wanting it is different then knowing it.
That’s not the issue. The issue is that she is a straight A student who is asking to be moved up to the higher level math program that is offered in her school. The only reason that the school would have not moved a straight A student, who is also getting A’s in math, and who is asking to be moved up to the higher level math program, is that the higher level is too crowded, and she and her mother haven’t insisted. Probably other students and their parents did. It has nothing to do with any race. It has to do with appropriate level work for this capable young woman, who is asking for challenging math.
I would hate to think that the decision of which students get the apparently limited (for what reason, I cannot say) opportunity to do higher level math has anything to do with whether the student is male or female.
This isn’t necessarily true. It’s an assumption or hypothesis.
It’s like at my son’s school - not everyone was placed in BC. My son was placed in AB.
He had As. The teacher said he wasn’t ready and worked with my son to determine fit. It wasn’t related to size.
I remember going back to 9th grade. I failed Geometry. F - yep.
I had an 8 in Algebra in 8th grade.
They told me to repeat.
I should have listened but didn’t.
A grade alone is not necessarily a reason to be advanced.
And frankly - being in Calc AB will not cost any admission decision and if anything, will help with merit money - especially at those schools that base it on a gpa table (that was a question asked by OP). AB is still considered very rigorous. We all know the NEU kid just admitted with pre-calc.
So I think - perhaps the parent can ask for a reassess - I don’t disagree - but we can’t know why they were placed at this level. You can’t assume that an A is a sole basis to be moved up.
At many schools, As in the current math track is not sufficient cause to move a student up to a higher track. Students can excel at one level of learning, but not necessarily want or need a higher/faster/more rigorous level.
Our high school has a higher level math track which is determined both by grades and by standardized test scores. Most years, it is probably 2/3 female. There are girls in the level down with all As, but they aren’t moved up automatically or upon request… it’s more complicated than what you are describing.
Also, we are talking about an 8th grader with all As. The rubber hasn’t hit the road yet to know if this is a student who will continue to have all As through high school.
That’s true. But she has been asking to be moved up in math pretty much since 2nd semester of 6th grade, right after she started there. She’s been asking for a year and a half, which means she’s been bored in math for a year and a half. What a waste. And a math aptitude test is not necessarily a predictor of math ability or math performance.
One of my kids repeatedly tested into regular math, even though they were very good at math, were way ahead in math, and their elementary school teacher was astonished that kid didn’t test into the gifted math track. They just didn’t do well on the school’s aptitude test, which consisted of puzzles rather than math. Guess they’re just not that bright. We overrode them into honors as soon as it was allowed, at the beginning of middle school. That kid did have a relative weakness in math. They only got a 34 on the math section of the ACT, as opposed to the rest being 36’s. They rarely got an A minus instead of an A in the honors track in math. And they only got a B on the flagship state U’s Calc final after a Covid-marred year, as opposed to the A they got in the school’s AP Calc BC. And they only wound up at a tippy top, where they’ve so far gotten straight A’s in any class that required math. Yup, I guess we made a mistake, no doubt about it. The mistake we made was that we should have overridden even more, and put the kid into the two years ahead in math, as opposed to one, at the beginning of middle school when it was allowed.
So yes, it may be that the kid doesn’t have the aptitude to get straight A’s in Calc BC in 11th grade and move on to multivariable in 12th. But the only way to find out is to let her try! I mean, what more can she do than get straight A’s and ask repeatedly to be moved up in math? She can always be moved back down at any point if the honors math track isn’t the right placement.
I had both scenarios with my two, both now out of undergrad.
Eldest wasn’t on the honors math track going from mid to high school. In hindsight, she clearly could have been in the higher level of math and we will never know why she wasn’t placed there. She got as far as precalc in high school and also took AP stats.
She ended up being a TA and test grader for various stats classes in college. At no point did she ever take calculus. This was never an issue in terms of her college or postgrad outcomes.
For our second, we knew he needed to be in the higher level math and petitioned for that to happen. It was the best choice for him. It gave him a better foundation for his degree, which was economics with finance. In fact, I’d say it was extremely important that he took both AP stats and calculus in high school.
Personally, rather than focusing on calc for your humanities oriented daughter, I’d instead encourage her to take AP stats at some point. It can add rigor for those less-math oriented kids, and it’s also incredibly useful for all kinds of majors. Even my son, who hated AP stats, would agree. Both my kids feel that was one of the most practical classes they took.
I’d go by what is most going to benefit your daughter, but be sure she is onboard with the choices she has.
I will add that my youngest took AP stats as a sophomore. That was not a good idea in retrospect. By the time he needed to take stats classes again in college, it had been a long time since his high school class. He had credit for his AP stats score and therefore the college wouldn’t let him take the 100 level stats class. He definitely struggled at first to remember stuff in his college stats classes. Just worth considering.
