Math Problem

Parents Forum
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<p>I'm looking for some advice regarding my junior son. A little background: Prior to this year, he has had one B (honors Latin III), so has a 3.95 unweighted, 4.3-ish weighted. Is a 3 sport varsity athlete, national top 10 in a sport outside of school, and an all-around good kid (of course I'm biased)...</p>

<p>So, this year, his only non-honors, non-AP class is trig, which is a required pre-req to pre-calc, which is required for AP calc his senior year...you get the idea. He (and the entire class) is having a horrific time in this class. 24 of the 28 kids have either a D or an F for the semester. My son so far has a C, but is only one or two points away from a D. There are various reasons for these grades, but suffice to say it's probably 75% due to sub-par teaching and 25% immature reactions to the teaching problems, if that makes sense. I don't lay all the blame on the teacher, but I know my son, his relative intelligence and willingness to get his work done, and the stories he tells me about class are relayed universally by other kids in the class.....the counseling office only shrugs their shoulders and says they've had tons of complaints - no help there. </p>

<p>But, this semester is essentially water under the bridge, with only 2 weeks of classes remaining. He's at the point of being grateful for a C, and willing to take it and not look back. Sorry to take so long to get to the point, but here it is - he has this same teacher next semester for pre-calculus! He has already spoken to his counselor about changing to the only other section, but it is full and he was denied. All the counselor suggested was to look at websites of colleges he's interested in and see if they require calculus...if not, drop it altogether. </p>

<p>His regular counselor is on medical leave until next semester..this is a sub...and while I think that's a pathetic level of assistance from guidance, I'm starting to wonder if that's not what he ought to do....so, how bad would that look to admissions? He would end up with the following as his high school math credits -
Freshman - Geometry - 1 credit A
Sophomore - Intermediate Algebra and Algebra II - 2 credits A/A
Junior - Trig - 1 credit C (hopefully)
Senior - AP Stat - 1 credit likely A</p>

<p>His intention is to major in biology or neuroscience with medical school as a potential ultimate goal. In your esteemed opinions - should he suffer through pre-calc and likley drag his GPA even further down so that he can take AP Calc AB next year, or cut his losses and change his path? He's very stressed over this, and I feel bad for him, but don't know what advice to give him.</p>

<p>Thanks for the help -</p>

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<p>With a bio major, it’s likely that Calc would be required in college but not in high school. Do you have a local CC that he could take the pre-calc from, even as a summer class? I would probably avoid the bad teacher (and the potential damage to the math/science gpa) and have my kid go that route, take AP Stats, and be ready to take calc freshman year. But, I would also elevate the complaint to the administration in a non-threatening way. If most of the class is failing a high school trig class, there should be alarm bells going off somewhere!</p>

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<p>He’s gonna need calc. And my opinion is that he should get it in high school. </p>

<p>What about a tutor for pre-calc? </p>

<p>Maybe even right now for the trig to help him get through the final and then continue through the pre-calc. Yeah it’s a cost – but look at it as an investment in your child’s future.</p>

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<p>In our school, this would be a situation to discuss with the principal. Does this teacher have tenure? Better yet, either the kids or the parents or both should organize a group and meet with the principal about this teacher and the grading policy in the class. I understand that you said that 25% of the problem is the students’ “immature reactions” to the teacher, but 75% seems to be, therefore, a problem with the teaching. Did any student do well? (Thereby ruining the curve and the argument that the teaching is so poor that noone can succeed).</p>

<p>I will say that our son had a physics teacher who slept during class, literally. He left the kids doing projects and went into another room and slept. He did not get tenure and is now gone. During that year, my son and his classmates banded together and taught each other, using the textbook. They all got A’s and also 5’s on their AP test. The teacher did nothing. We tried to see it as good preparation for life, and a lesson that one is always responsible for oneself. I wasn’t involved at all.</p>

<p>We had a chemistry teacher who is a little senile, frankly, and hard to understand. With one of my kids, again, the class banded together, held study sessions, and taught each other and themselves. But when my youngest ended up in his class, her class had a different dynamic and while the top few kids met together, the rest of the class (including my daughter) sank. So, this time, I did speak to the principal, along with several others. Not about grades, but about the teaching.</p>

<p>Another option, which our middle child did when the US History teacher was a huge disappointment at our school (he talks incesssantly about himself and his childhood: our school system is not the best, obviously) is take the class online. Check out Virtual High School, Aventa Learning (both are under the umbrella organization educere.net) or U. of Nebraska. There are others.</p>

<p>Or, if you have a community college near you, he could take these classes there. Soe CC’s also have online options if the CC is not nearby.</p>

<p>In each case, credits would be accepted at the high school. Guidance could help with this. Community colleges have dual enrollment programs so that there is no cost, if the student is still in high school, and he would get both college and high school credit.</p>

<p>For online courses, we did have to get permission from the principal to make sure the credits would be accepted at the high school, and then guidance served as the contact for the online programs.</p>

<p>Did your son learn anything despite the less than stellar grades? I think that, although the grade issue is stressful, it is even more important that he learn the material, since these classes are building a foundation for future material. Often, when a class has overall bad grades, the teacher has not succeeded in teaching.</p>

<p>Our daughter dropped Spanish due to a teacher who is well-known for her verbal abuse (the teacher has brain cancer and is being kept on for compassionate reasons, but it is hard on the kids). She was not going to major in Spanish. However, things are different for your son: he has academic plans in which calculus will be important. He can take or retake it in college, but presumably it will be helpful to show his competence before applying. </p>

<p>If your son does take the class, the reality is that he and his peers need to take responsiblity for their own learning, teach themselves from the text, get together for study sessions, and so on. They shouldn’t have to, but it sounds like this is a necessity, and the silver lining to a very bad situation is learning to take that responsiblity and feel empowered in the end. Good luck.</p>

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<p>IMHO, here is the bottom line, jcc…</p>

<p>If your child can graduate high school with the “C” in Trig on his transcript, then have him just call things a day with regards to taking any more math in high school.</p>

<p>Most every town has a dual enrollment program with the community colleges or public universities and high school students. So, he can either do that most ethically. Or, he can just take his higher maths through some nice independent studies program like through BYU or something.</p>

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<p>I more than understand. But, you have to tend to your son’s academic needs first. Then, you really do need to state your case to the principal or even someone in the school board just for the sake of common decency. All of this is nothing more than my opinion, mind you :)</p>

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<p>I agree with compmom. While I’m not one to blame a teacher as a jerk reaction, your son MUST be tracking well with the top students of his class (up to this point). IF it’s true that a large number of kids are underperforming on a track so different from their norm, you need to raise heck. I would get a block of like parents together and get with the principal to address both current grades and future classes now. Addressing problems after-the-fact will be tough and miserable for all involved.</p>

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<p>Has he tried talking directly to the other teacher to see if that teacher will override the enrollment limit? My daughter was allowed into a class this year by a teacher whose class was full, but after speaking to my daughter about why she wanted to switch classes, the teacher signed off on exceeding the limit.</p>

<p>Obviously, schools differ on this, and in my daughter’s case, she was changing to a different course, not simply a different teacher.</p>

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<p>I have nothing to add to the excellent suggestions (which one is best I’m not sure). My angle is this -
Isn’t the school the least bit concered about a class where 24/28 kids are getting a D or F and one of the four who isn’t is a borderline D, low C? Seems really weird. Is there another trig class to compare to?</p>

<p>It’s been a while since I took trig, but my recollection of the way they teach it is that it is sort of a combination of Algebra and Geometry based on the unit circle and properties of traingles and angles. So a student with all As in geometry and algebra, if they work as hard, shouldn’t be getting a C in trig. So either-</p>

<ol>
<li><p>The trig class and teacher are excessively poor and unfair or</p></li>
<li><p>The preparation in Algebra and Geometry was not adequate.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Either way, I’d think the school wold be interested. And I think the grade list would send up a rocket flare without you having to say anything. Apparently not.</p>

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<p>You wouldn’t be able to switch teachers at our school without an IEP. I’m wondering if it is because it is a non-honors course that the administration isn’t doing more about it. It’s pathetic, but at our school many of the kids don’t care about their grades, so the non-honors classes are sometimes left alone to do poorly. My question would be - is he not understanding the material, or are the tests and grading bizarre? I have had to tutor my kids through certain math classes because of poor teaching, but sometimes the teachers make the tests so strange that no one can do well. I agree with either taking it online or through a CC, or at least get a tutor. It’s a shame that these teachers linger on at the school.</p>

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<p>Thanks for all of your responses. I probably can’t address all of the good points you’ve made, but I’ll try. </p>

<p>Someone asked whether or not some kids have been successful in the class - I do know there are no A’s, 4 total B’s and C’s, and the rest Ds and Fs. Even my son does not consider a B “successsful” in a regular level class…so I guess the answer would be no as far as we’re concerned. And, I should point out - there is no honors level trig offered at his school - all the kids take regular level…</p>

<p>As far as whether or not he’s learned trig, the answer is mostly yes. The main issue he and the other students have had in the class is the teacher is wholly unprepared and unable to teach or answer questions about trig. She teaches from a binder put together by the chair of the math dept. If the answer isn’t in there - she can’t help them. </p>

<p>Ok, Fine - the students, for the most part, have managed to learn what they need to from the book, and by attending the other teacher’s tutoring sessions. </p>

<p>His teacher does not make her own tests - she gets them from a test bank, and typically only a small portion of the test relates to what the kids have been taught…i.e. 20 questions - 10 will be something she taught in class, 10 will cover material the kids have never seen before. My son typically gets about 13-14 out of 20 correct…she makes no allowance in grading for the problems the kids have never seen before. They take one of these tests every few days. She never references the 7-8 new problems in class either before or after the test.
When asked how they are supposed to be able to solve those problems her response was “You don’t have enough trig knowledge to know how, so you’ll just have to guess”.
The one test this 6-weeks my son thought he’d aced (because he’a already covered that material in honors physics) - after grading the test she decided to eliminate an entire section of questions (the ones he got right, unfortunately) giving him a D instead of a B on the test…These are just a few examples - I have many.</p>

<p>So, attending tutoring sessions, which he has done, doesn’t substantially influence his grade. I’ve seen his tests. If she only graded the material they’ve covered, he’d have at least a high B, most likely an A in the class. Has he learned enough trig to successfully move on? I don’t know, and neither does he. Neither of us is certain what he is supposed to have learned in there this semester…just what she’s covered, or all of those other problems she never touched upon?? We just don’t know…</p>

<p>I have a call into his guidance counselor to see if dual enrollment pre-calc would be allowed in this instance. We don’t know any kids doing dual enrollment other than for vocational-type classes. We do have both a community college nearby if so, though.</p>

<p>Thanks again for the responses…it’s been very frustrating, to say the least. His high school has a new principal this year, and his guidance counselor is out on medical leave. He has A’s in his other classes, (AP Euro, Psych, & Bio, and Honors Physics) - but this one class is a doozie! I’ll let you know what they say re: dual enrollment…</p>

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<p>I truly wish you all the best on that. You home state’s board of regents would have more information about dual enrollment also.</p>

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<p>As mamabear suggested–get a tutor. You might be able to get someone to give him a couple of sessions to prep for the final. The commmunity college might be able to suggest someone. Our community college has a math center and although your son may not be able to use the center, someone there may be able to give you direction on a tutor. If you don’t have any luck with a tutoring center, contact the department that offers the developmental courses. Community colleges teach all levels of math, so you should be able to get some guidance. Good luck.</p>

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<p>My daughter’s teacher for honors pre-calc/calc A was a good teacher - many kids did well in his class - but somehow, as she puts it, “His teaching style didn’t match my learning style”. It’s the only HS class in which she got Bs, and she felt unprepared for AP Calc (which he also teaches). So she took Calculus 1 online through UC Berkeley Extension ([course</a> - UC Berkeley Extension](<a href=“http://extension.berkeley.edu/cat/math.html]course”>http://extension.berkeley.edu/cat/math.html)). While her HS is picky about giving credit for online courses, they do give credit for college classes, and she may also get college credit for the class if she attends a UC. This isn’t an option for everyone - a friend who took the UCB class at the same time did badly in it - but in my daughter’s case, she got an A- in the class, and now feels that she’s better prepared for college math. </p>

<p>Can’t say how this will affect her college applications, but one of her older sister’s friends whose terminal math class was an online pre-calc course from UCB Extension was accepted at Columbia and just graduated from Harvard after transferring there.</p>

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<p>What a frustrating situation. Even a tough grader usually follows some sort of bell curve, so there should be at least a few As. There must be other parents whose blood is boiling over this. Can you get together and arrange a meeting with the principal? Can you suggest that this teacher work under the direct supervision of the other teacher until the end of the semester and then be reassigned for next semester?</p>

<p>My daughter had an incompetent teacher last year. We complained, other parents complained, and nothing was done. To get through the year, we purchased the teacher’s edition of the textbook ($14 used on Amazon - it’s amazing what you can buy there) and we home schooled her. She ended up with a high B - her lowest grade, but acceptable under the circumstances. We also found by googling some of her old test questions, this teacher was pulling questions from college level course material located on various websites. As a result, my daughter used those websites as a resource. If the test questions seem odd and unrelated to the textbook, try googling the questions and see what you find.</p>

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<p>Why do this on your own? If 20 other kids are having the same issue, I suggest bonding with the parents of these kids getting the D’s and F’s and set up a meeting with GC and Asst Principal. Numbers in Force is powerful. How about doing some problem sets with the 4 who are receiving B’s?</p>

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<p>Well, a little new information… Apparently, according to the counselor, they are very aware of the issue, and it is more widespread than just my son’s trig class. Our state instituted new math standards and something called “spiraling” in the math curriculum this year, and it’s been a nightmare. All the teacher’s are required to use test bank tests and it’s not working too well. I spoke with two counselors yesterday, and both gave similar versions of the same story…
They feel there will be a “shake-up” in the math dept for spring semester, and that my son may not have this same teacher for pre-calc. The suggestion was to show up for class on day 1, and stay if it’s a new teacher / go to guidance and drop if it’s the same teacher…not ideal, but at least it’s a plan.</p>

<p>The dual-enrollment idea, while a good one in my opinion, was shot down completely. Our kids cannot take a DE class for credit if that same class is offered at the school…since they teach pre-calc at his school, no dual allowed :o(</p>

<p>I’m keeping my fingers crossed that there is a teacher change for spring. If not, my son’s plan is to drop pre-calc, and take AP Stats next year instead of Calc AB…again not ideal, but a plan…</p>

<p>Thanks again for all the responses!</p>

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<p>Spiraling? Sadly, this sounds aptly named. Like a plane going down or water down the … well, you get the idea.</p>

<p>How did they ever teach math in the old days before people started messing with it?</p>

<p>Hope they get this worked out and your kid can work it out.</p>

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<p>When spiraling works, it has the material presented in such a way where the student builds upon what they know in gradations. Much like how one builds strength in their legs through working the stairmaster in varying gradations over time.</p>

<p>When spiraling does not work is when the gradations have no order or reason to the students and the root cause of that is normally pre programmed tests and sometimes even a poorly written text as well. </p>

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<p>Well son of a gun! </p>

<p>You and your son hang in there all the same. His stats, in your first posting, seem wonderful so I am sure he will be deemed okay to the addy offices of most any university.</p>