@VaporeonKid, definitely. Overall I think most of LAC’s are more than fine for math, but probably not the best choise for the brightest students, because they could finish undergraduate courses in 2-3 years. I know a guy who is IMO silver medalist and went to study to Amherst, he said he finished all math major requirements in 2 years, after that he was supposed to do independent study. He transferred to UPenn later and was super happy with number of available courses. Imho, math and physics are different from other majors in that they heavily favor smart students. If you are good at grasping concepts it’s not a lot of work at undergraduate level, where at CS and engineering, no matter how smart you are you will need to work your ass off. Most, if not all established big universities have good math department, but some, like Cornell, MIT, UPenn, UChicago, Princeton stand out. Also, if you are interested in CS, you will need to take applied math courses like fluid mechanics, quantum mechanic, numerical analysis, systems theory and etc. You should check availability of courses at colleges you apply. Honestly though for math I would take UPenn, for example, over any LAC in the country.
@VaporeonKid, also need to add that math Phd’s have insane dropout rate, like 50%, so it would be nice for you to try grad courses before deciding whether to go for Phd or not.
@Aymyrat Yeah, the plan is to try out grad courses and research sometime in my college career so I can figure out whether it’s for me. I’m not sure if an LAC or university would provide me with that sort of experience better, but I suppose the answer does vary from school to school.
You mention Penn, which I believe is the first time it has been mentioned in this thread, so I’ll take this opportunity to ask you a few questions. A little bit of background, Penn was on my list for a while (and it was quite on top for a moment, too) but it hasn’t come up recently. I was looking for a department that has an active research group in theoretical CS: Penn has this major/minor called Logic, Information & Computation. On paper it looks fantastic, seemingly a mixture of everything I’m interested in (math, CS, and a bit of linguistics), but I haven’t had much luck in finding recent information about this program. My question is: do you know if this program is active? If so, how well is it perceived among grad schools and employers compared to a regular Penn math and/or CS degree? Would you recommend it?
@VaporeonKid , I would be lying if I said I knew about this major, maybe someone from UPenn could help.
@VaporeonKid Wesleyan is an admitted outlier when it comes to an LAC sponsoring advanced work in math:
http://www.wesleyan.edu/mathcs/graduate/index.html
Consortiums have also been mentioned; Swarthmore has one that includes Penn.
@circuitrider Thank you! The page seems to provide very positive information about Wesleyan’s Math & CS department — the fact that they do active research in quite a few of the fields I’m interested in pushes it up my list. Do you know (whether from experience or any other source) if undergraduate research is common in the math and/or CS department?
I can’t speak from experience, but, everything I’ve ever heard about the science departments at Wesleyan suggests that undergraduate research is encouraged. The graduate enrollments are small, roughly 100 total doctoral students at any given time (and some of them are actually ethnomusicologists.) So, it’s not a corporate atmosphere at all. Often, it’s just a matter of chatting up a professor between classes.
If you’re interested in “math, CS, and a bit of linguistics”, then you may find computational linguistics a very interesting field with good job prospects. Not too many LACs have strong linguistics departments; their CS departments might have at best a couple of related courses. I wouldn’t necessarily rule them out just for that reason. If you wanted to pursue computational linguistics in grad school, a math major could be an excellent foundation (arguably better than a linguistics major).
The page below is a pretty good overview of the field and top (graduate) schools for it:
https://thebestschools.org/rankings/best-computational-linguistics-graduate-programs/
For purposes of choosing a college, I wouldn’t make too much out of the 1-20 ranking. Any one of those universities … or someplace else … might be a good fit if you’re interested in this field.
If you want to go with a LAC, you might want to find one that at least offers intro courses in phonetics & phonology, morphology, and syntax, along with one or more CS courses in natural language processing (or computational linguistics.) Swarthmore, Pomona, or Carleton might work. Those aren’t “match” schools, though. For that, maybe one of the less selective consortium colleges could work. Hampshire College students presumably can take comp ling courses at UMass-Amherst.
A few years back, a poster named Keilexandra was interested in this area. I believe she wound up double-majoring in CS/Linguistics at Swarthmore.
Nonetheless, LACs with strong math departments offer ~20 courses beyond the calc II level (plus the option of a Budapest semester). Students would need to be well advanced in mathematics in order to find this level of variety and depth to be insufficient.
@Aymyrat, good that you said you would take Penn or any other university over a similar profiling LAC as that is an individual preference. As an example, the top 25% of students at Penn scored an 800 on the ACT and at Amherst the same group scored a 780. Given that both have 400 level classes, I think it comes down to individual preference.
re # 109: "Given that both have 400 level classes, I think it comes down to individual preference. "
That could be true only if:
-They both offer the same number and variety of 400 level classes, so equal likelihood that both of them will offer classes in the sub-area OP will find of interest and actually wants to take, at that time (which is not totally known with certainty at this time);
- Said equal variety of 400 classes are offered just as frequently at each institution, so equal likelihood that OP would not miss a desired class due to :
-it being offered only every other year;- conflicting with another class that is also offered only every other year, in a single section; or
- the one Prof. with that knowledge/ interest is on sabbatical, or
-
The one Prof. was a visiting professor who isn't there anymore, but they left the course listing in their catalog anyway- (either in case it is eventually offered again or to mislead prospective applicants)
- They both also offer graduate courses that a highly-prepared undergraduate student might take, with permission, if so qualified.
Me, I doubt these parity conditions truly exist, however OP may investigate.
@monydad, agree that a university may have more class offerings in a given semester.
That said, let’s look at this from 50,000 ft… Given that a significant # of students who achieved Math SAT scores in the 750+ range have chosen to major in Math at Amherst, Williams, Pomona, Harvey Mudd to name a few (10% or more in all instances noted) and given that these student profiles could have attended any university or LAC it’s safe to assume that it provides a comparable academic experience and outcome.
I think it comes down to what is the right learning and social environment for each person.
The feel and culture of an LAC, I find, suits me quite a bit. But I find myself stuck with their course offerings, not knowing whether it will be enough for my college career. With a larger university, on the other hand, I find myself not necessarily ‘fitting in’ with the students and the culture. With grad school in math/theoretical CS (combinatorics/theory of computation/logic) as the ultimate goal, what would you suggest I pick? I’m leaning towards applying to a mixture of both types of schools—then choosing the one I feel strikes the balance best once acceptances are in hand.
@tk21769 I’ve looked into computational linguistics for a while, and it does sound very interesting. As much as it combines my interests in CS and linguistics, I’d love to pursue a field more linked to theoretical/pure math, like theoretical CS/logic. If you have any other subfield suggestions, though, I’m definitely open to it!
@VaporeonKid, Swartrhmore seems like a great fit given its an LAC that’s incredibly strong in Math and with the consortium you can take classes at Penn. Another great choice would be Carnegie Mellon because while a university its relatively small so will have more of a LAC feel. Also, Wesleyan would be great true LAC choice even though it has a small graduate school, although I don’t know if the classes are available to undergraduate students. In addition, would throw Harvey Mudd in as well as it has a great math program with very robust course offerings.
@Aymyrat That strikes me as a very sad thing to say. Do you really see CS and engineering students as empty containers being filled with info, never questioning or discussing what they learn?
There are quite a few subfields of theoretical CS (complexity theory, machine learning, cryptography, …) but you may have to look fairly hard to find much in these areas at a small “match” school. You’d probably be looking mostly at very selective mid-sized schools (like Princeton) or else large state universities. However, a selective LAC with a strong math program, like Williams, might also have a few CS courses in machine learning, theory of computation (TC), etc., that you could cobble into an interdisciplinary major-minor program.
As for less selective LACs and small universities, St. Olaf lists a TC course (offered every other year). Macalester and Brandeis apparently offer TC courses every year. Wesleyan (maybe a high match, if not a reach) regularly offers courses in logic & computation, cryptography, and automata theory. Depending on how bureaucratic/flexible the place is, you may not have to limit yourself to the majors and courses shown in the catalog.
When my D completed the classes required for her math major at a selective LAC, she decided to add a double in CS which has kept her quite busy. I don’t know off-hand the exact 300 level math classes but I believe they included graph theory, dynamical systems, and abstract algebra to name a couple. She was first interested in the Budapest Semesters in Math program but ultimately decided and was accepted to the Budapest AIT for Computer Science and Software Engineering program because she didn’t want to get behind in her CS mandatory classes. I only say this to let you know that it is possible to double in Math and CS at other than a highly selective school or top 20 LAC, at which not many are accepted and others might not be able to afford.
Some of the earlier comments regarding this OP’s need for math programs at universities or consortia may be premature in that she has not, I believe, indicated at which level of math she will begin her college studies. LACs with strong math programs are perfectly designed for a student planning to enter at the multivariable calculus/linear algebra level (and might be sufficient even for some higher-level students). Pending further information, her options would appear to be quite wide, with stand-alone LACs among them.
@Chembiodad “@Aymyrat, good that you said you would take Penn or any other university over a similar profiling LAC as that is an individual preference. As an example, the top 25% of students at Penn scored an 800 on the ACT and at Amherst the same group scored a 780. Given that both have 400 level classes, I think it comes down to individual preference.”
I think that depends on the student. For most students, I agree with you, but for some advanced students, 400 level is just not enough.
D1 is a senior at Penn. Second semester of sophomore year, she applied and was admitted to graduate school. In 2018 she will finish her BSE in NETS/CS (https://www.nets.upenn.edu) with a math minor (and maybe a Stat minor?), and MSE in CS. Penn has the ability to accommodate this type of student without difficulty and attracts a lot of them. Most LAC’s would not be able to provide that level of opportunity.